Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 10:14AM

Quandary wrote: »

This Rooney in midfield business is coming from the Mirror so it's pure speculation at this point. It makes a certain amount of sense but I cannot see Rooney going for it. We could end up with a disgruntled £300k per week striker warming the bench or playing for the reserves.

It doesn't make sense to me.
Play RVP up top as the main man. Rooney in midfield.
RVP gets injured. Rooney goes up top to replace him. Tom Cleverly takes Rooney's midfield role.

The sensible thing to do would be to buy a couple of proper midfielders to play in midfield.

If he can't fit Rooney, RVP and Mata into the same team, then one will have to be benched or sold.

user2011 · 22-06-2014 10:14AM

One of the richest/biggest/bestests/most supported clubs in the world has to convert a 28 yr old striker to a midfielder because they have somehow lost their ability to spot/attract a good midfielder.

KH25 · 22-06-2014 10:15AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Any ideas on how Valencia fits into VG's United? I can't make any sense of this new contract. I really can't.

If he's supposed to be a wing back, then he's behind Rafeal in the pecking order. But that means Varela might awsell leave the club. Janko too. And Valencia can't defend for sh*te - that much was obvious last season.

If he's intended to play a more forward role, I don't think Van Gaal plays with traditional, line-hugging, wingers. And Valencia is too one footed to play a role that requires him to move in off the wing.

It's a baffling piece of business.

Wing back I'm thinking. But then again, if LVG likes the look of Varela or Janko they could get a chance in the team. If not I can see them going on loan.

KH25 · 22-06-2014 10:21AM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me.
Play RVP up top as the main man. Rooney in midfield.
RVP gets injured. Rooney goes up top to replace him. Tom Cleverly takes Rooney's midfield role.

The sensible thing to do would be to buy a couple of proper midfielders to play in midfield.

If he can't fit Rooney, RVP and Mata into the same team, then one will have to be benched or sold.

If LVG wants to play 1 up top, then one of Rooney or RVP will be benched. Same with one of Mata/Kags. There's no real issue with this in a sense. A big team should have subs of a similar level to whats on the field. If there's a decent rotation then its not an issue. Rooney will be the problem though. I can easily see him being sold. He won't want to be second fiddle up front and he wont want to be a CM.

Quandary · 22-06-2014 10:24AM

user2011 wrote: »

One of the richest/biggest/bestests/most supported clubs in the world has to convert a 28 yr old striker to a midfielder because they have somehow lost their ability to spot/attract a good midfielder.

Buying 2 quality centre mids is obviously the ideal solution but if LVG can't accommodate Rooney in the side we will find it hard to sell him considering the insane wages he's on. RVP will always be no.1 while LVG is manager and Rooney is not as good a no.10 as Mata or possibly even an on form Kagawa(based on his bundesliga performances)

It's going to be very interesting to see what he does with Rooney.

user2011 · 22-06-2014 10:52AM

Quandary wrote: »

Buying 2 quality centre mids is obviously the ideal solution but if LVG can't accommodate Rooney in the side we will find it hard to sell him considering the insane wages he's on. RVP will always be no.1 while LVG is manager and Rooney is not as good a no.10 as Mata or possibly even an on form Kagawa(based on his bundesliga performances)

It's going to be very interesting to see what he does with Rooney.

It won't be his wages it'll be United being stubborn cnuts and not wanting to sell to a rival.

I know it's just paper talk but it's not the first time this has cropped up I'll be losing a lot of hope if we get too a third manager who can't sort out a good midfielder for us. It doesn't have to be WC Kroos/Pogba/Vidal etc.

Can't wait for the start of the season so I can see were we are at and where we are headed in the short term as a club. (Valencia 3yr extension is not a good start for me)

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 11:07AM

secman wrote: »

a long long time , I remember 68 very well and the lows of relegation from the old first division, remember offering up holy communion to win the league, was sick of the scousers........ then along came fergie..... so I'm not getting too down over 1 inevitable bad season following fergies retirement. So much ****e in this forum and LVG feet are hardly under the table !. Transfer window doesn't open till 1st July.

.... chill out for gods sake.

For ever a red devil.

secman

secman

So that would be a yes then. Odd that you can remember 68 very well but can't remember Nani having a decent season.

sigmundv · 22-06-2014 11:25AM

Nani has some of the best assist stats in the Premier League over the period he has been at Man Utd. I can't find the exact numbers, maybe someone else can give them. I have a lot of time for him, because he has the ability to change a match. He just doesn't get the opportunity often enough, because he is injured too much. I hope he can keep fit all next season and gets the chance to show what he can do. I think he plays well when given a run of matches.

Kagawa · 22-06-2014 11:54AM

kryogen wrote: »

Let him assess him? I would think he has a pretty good idea of what he is about by now tbh

He might be kept as an option for wing back maybe

I understand the 'assess' argument to a degree, but that's what moyes did, he shouldn't have and neither should LVG. He should look to offload Valencia etc over the next couple of years, stagger it, but bloody hell, how much time & chances do united give players now. Get rid and bring in new blood.

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:23PM

sigmundv wrote: »

Nani has some of the best assist stats in the Premier League over the period he has been at Man Utd. I can't find the exact numbers, maybe someone else can give them. I have a lot of time for him, because he has the ability to change a match. He just doesn't get the opportunity often enough, because he is injured too much. I hope he can keep fit all next season and gets the chance to show what he can do. I think he plays well when given a run of matches.

assists in PL in 2008/2009 - 1 assist
Assists in PL in 2009/2010 - 6 - assists
Most PL assists in 2010/11 - 14 assists
assists in PL in 2011/12 - 10 assists
assists in PL in 2012/13 - 2 assists
assists in PL in 2013/14 - 0 assists

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 12:25PM

People belly-aching about the new manager, who is still engaged in a WC campaign, not making a call on Valencia are being stupid. LVG has never worked with Valencia before and likely never even managed against him, but LVG is supposed to give a fúck about Valencia right now and make a decision when he's in the middle of trying to win a World Cup? That's not going to happen.

The club have helped the manager out big time by making it so a decision doesn't need to be made right now. Valencia was given too many chances by Ferguson and by Moyes, but still the club have trusted the new manager to make the call in his own time. That's a great thing. It's a hell of a lot better for us fans than having the faceless back office make the decision on Valencia in the manager's place.

The fact that LVG had a world cup to manage always meant that he was going to be slow in dealing with issues at United this summer. If you were happy with the van Gaal appointment but are complaining about these things happening now then you are an idiot.

Rayne Wooney · 22-06-2014 12:26PM

Valencia and Evra signed up, rumours of Rooney being moved to CM

We ain't signing anybody are we :pac:

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:33PM

Pro. F wrote: »

People belly-aching about the new manager, who is still engaged in a WC campaign, not making a call on Valencia are being stupid. LVG has never worked with Valencia before and likely never even managed against him, but LVG is supposed to give a fúck about Valencia right now and make a decision when he's in the middle of trying to win a World Cup? That's not going to happen.

The club have helped the manager out big time by making it so a decision doesn't need to be made right now. Valencia was given too many chances by Ferguson and by Moyes, but still the club have trusted the new manager to make the call in his own time. That's a great thing. It's a hell of a lot better for us fans than having the faceless back office make the decision on Valencia in the manager's place.

The fact that LVG had a world cup to manage always meant that he was going to be slow in dealing with issues at United this summer. If you were happy with the van Gaal appointment but are complaining about these things happening now then you are an idiot.

Thanks for calling half the posters on here idiots.

So..... LVG is too busy to make a call on Valencia. The club made the decision for him. That's nice.
Why did a decision on Valencia's future have to be made now? Why not wait until next month when VG is free to actually talk to the guy and work with him and see him in training? Why not wait for three months so VG can see what he does on the pitch?
Personally, I don't see any reason to rush a decision on this player - I doubt seriously that we were under pressure from dozens of top clubs who want to sign him.

sigmundv · 22-06-2014 12:37PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

assists in PL in 2008/2009 - 1 assist
Assists in PL in 2009/2010 - 6 - assists
Most PL assists in 2010/11 - 14 assists
assists in PL in 2011/12 - 10 assists
assists in PL in 2012/13 - 2 assists
assists in PL in 2013/14 - 0 assists

Cheers. Do you have the number of starts as well?

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:38PM

The Valencia thing sets a very bad precedent. Existing players should get new contracts if they play well and produce the goods on the pitch. Players who do not perform for a number of years should be turfed out, not given new contracts! That is they way top clubs are run.
But this is life at United right now. Vidic is allowed to leave - Evra gets a new deal. Youngsters don't get a chance to prove themselves - Valencia gets a three year contract.
Worrying.

Larry Wildman · 22-06-2014 12:40PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Thanks for calling half the posters on here idiots.

So..... LVG is too busy to make a call on Valencia. The club made the decision for him. That's nice.
Why did a decision on Valencia's future have to be made now? Why not wait until next month when VG is free to actually talk to the guy and work with him and see him in training? Why not wait for three months so VG can see what he does on the pitch?
Personally, I don't see any reason to rush a decision on this player - I doubt seriously that we were under pressure from dozens of top clubs who want to sign him.

What exactly is the downside with extending Antonio Valencia's contract?

And this view that Van Gaal already knows enough about Valencia (or Cleverley or Anderson or whoever) is bonkers.

Any manager worth his salt, never mind a top manager like Van Gaal, would say "eh, I'll judge him myself when I'm actually there thanks".

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:44PM

sigmundv wrote: »

Cheers. Do you have the number of starts as well?

2007–08 26 - ?
2008–09 13 - 1 assist
2009–10 23 - 6 assists
2010–11 33 - 14 assists
2011–12 29 - 10 assists
2012–13 11 - 2 assists
2013–14 11 - 0 assists

The_Kew_Tour · 22-06-2014 12:45PM

People thinking we were buying loads during WC were crazy, nuts and crazy and unrealistic and really unrealistic.

Im very confident we will get deals done by August.

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:46PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

What exactly is the downside with extending Antonio Valencia's contract?

And this view that Van Gaal already knows enough about Valencia (or Cleverley or Anderson or whoever) is bonkers.

Any manager worth his salt, never mind a top manager like Van Gaal, would say "eh, I'll judge him myself when I'm actually there thanks".

So, we should not sign any players ever again?
Because how could a manager know about a player unless he's working with him for an extended period of time?
Sure, it's basically a stab in the dark to sign a player then. Right?

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 12:47PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Thanks for calling half the posters on here idiots.

Boo hoo.

redbaron_99 wrote: »

So..... LVG is too busy to make a call on Valencia. The club made the decision for him. That's nice.
Why did a decision on Valencia's future have to be made now? Why not wait until next month when VG is free to actually talk to the guy and work with him and see him in training? Why not wait for three months so VG can see what he does on the pitch?
Personally, I don't see any reason to rush a decision on this player - I doubt seriously that we were under pressure from dozens of top clubs who want to sign him.

No decision has been made. LVG will still be able to not play Valencia if he wants to. LVG will still be able to cut Valencia loose and leave him to sit in the reserves until he finds himself another club if he wants to.

Having a player in the final year of his contract obviously causes friction for the player and the manager. You're fooling yourself arguing otherwise.

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 12:48PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

So, we should not sign any players ever again?
Because how could a manager know about a player unless he's working with him for an extended period of time?
Sure, it's basically a stab in the dark to sign a player then. Right?

Yeah, that isn't the logical implication of what he said. People on this thread aren't stupid enough to fall for that argument so you'd be better off trying a more intelligent one.

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:55PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Boo hoo.

No decision has been made. LVG will still be able to not play Valencia if he wants to. LVG will still be able to cut Valencia loose and leave him to sit in the reserves until he finds himself another club if he wants to.

Having a player in the final year of his contract obviously causes friction for the player and the manager. You're fooling yourself arguing otherwise.

Boo hoo, yourself. A decision has been made. We gave the poor player a three year contract.
Leave him in the reserves is a good idea. :rolleyes: He can decide to sit there for three years and we're picking up the bill. Because sure as sh*t no one else is going to pay him the type of wages that we are.

Having a top star in the final year of his contract causes friction and tension. Having a mediocre player in the final year is relatively unimportant.
Unless of course, he's to be part of the first team for the next couple of seasons.

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 12:56PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Yeah, that isn't the logical implication of what he said. People on this thread aren't stupid enough to fall for that argument so you'd be better off trying a more intelligent one.

I'm employing his logic to the assessment of potential targets. If a manager needs to work with a player to assess them properly, how can he make a reasonable decision on players to bring in?

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 01:01PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

A decision has been made. We gave the poor player a three year contract.
Leave him in the reserves is a good idea. :rolleyes: He can decide to sit there for three years and we're picking up the bill. Because sure as sh*t no one else is going to pay him the type of wages that we are.

And yet the club were willing to take that risk in order to make the manager's job a little less complicated in this summer when he's under such pressure. Sounds like a good move to me.

RE the last sentence: You haven't a notion how much money the club are paying Valencia and how likely it would be that he could be sold. You're trying to paint a picture of Valencia being hard to shift if LVG doesn't want him. It's wild speculation to support your excuse for a pointless whinge.

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Having a top star in the final year of his contract causes friction and tension. Having a mediocre player in the final year is relatively unimportant.
Unless of course, he's to be part of the first team for the next couple of seasons.

Lol at the idea that mediocre players aren't concerned about financial security.

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 01:06PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

I'm employing his logic to the assessment of potential targets. If a manager needs to work with a player to assess them properly, how can he make a reasonable decision on players to bring in?

It seems to me that you are pretending to be stupid in order to make an argument. If you really do think that that is a logical conclusion of Larrry's argument about a new manager preferring to judge the players in his squad by working with them, then there's no hope for you. Somebody could try and explain to you how you are wrong, but you still wouldn't be able/willing to understand.

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 01:11PM

Pro. F wrote: »

And yet the club were willing to take that risk in order to make the manager's job a little less complicated in this summer when he's under such pressure. Sounds like a good move to me.

RE the last sentence: You haven't a notion how much money the club are paying Valencia and how likely it would be that he could be sold. You're trying to paint a picture of Valencia being hard to shift if LVG doesn't want him. It's wild speculation to support your excuse for a pointless whinge.

Lol at the idea that mediocre players aren't concerned about financial security.

£4.68 million annually.

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 01:15PM

Pro. F wrote: »

It seems to me that you are pretending to be stupid in order to make an argument. If you really do think that that is a logical conclusion of Larrry's argument about a new manager preferring to judge the players in his squad by working with them, then there's no hope for you. Somebody could try and explain to you how you are wrong, but you still wouldn't be able/willing to understand.

Your way of debating is to call others stupid or idiots. It's a rather idiotic way of debating.

Let me put it in clearer terms for you: his point is that the manager cannot properly assess a player without working with him. Which indicates that the manager cannot assess players from other clubs. So, the manager is making a blind gamble on bringing players in from other clubs.
That's his logic. And you're calling me stupid.

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 01:19PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Your way of debating is to call others stupid or idiots. It's a rather idiotic way of debating.

Let me put it in clearer terms for you: his point is that the manager cannot properly assess a player without working with him. Which indicates that the manager cannot assess players from other clubs. So, the manager is making a blind gamble on bringing players in from other clubs.
That's his logic. And you're calling me stupid.

That is not his logic.

redbaron_99 wrote: »

£4.68 million annually.

Source?

redbaron_99 · 22-06-2014 01:28PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Source?

According to Mr Google.

Do a bit of digging and it seems his basic United wage was £4.16 Million annually.

Now, the new deal might be lower than this. It's up for debate whether the club would offer him a new contract and a wage cut at the same time.

Pro. F · 22-06-2014 01:30PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

According to Mr Google.

Do a bit of digging and it seems his basic United wage was £4.16 Million annually.

Now, the new deal might be lower than this. It's up for debate whether the club would offer him a new contract and a wage cut at the same time.

So like I said, you haven't a notion how much money the club are paying Valencia and how likely it would be that he could be sold.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Notes in OP,22/7

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