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Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    kylith wrote: »
    Some of them were removed nearly ten years ago.
    Well then the National Achieve should do something about getting them back


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Fcukall really to do with lack of education, poverty, or any of the other excuses anyone would care to dream up. People didn't need religion to tell the difference between having compassion and empathy for people, or treating them like the unwanted lepers in society. People turned a blind eye to these hell holes because they preferred not to have these "fallen women and bastard children" among the nice, "morally superior" people that we call a "civilized society". People back then were far from civilized for the way they judged people negatively, and we're no different today the way we seek to be "better" than everyone else, while our puppet masters pacify us by telling us what we want to hear.
    Poverty and lack of education are not excuses - but you really cannot discount them as part of the problem. What you say above was the case too but that doesn't mean lack of education and poverty weren't part of the conditions that allowed it to thrive either. I spoke to a man whose parents couldn't stop him from being taken away, because they were so poor.
    I don't see what the issue is with saying "Nobody's covering things up" to someone who was barging around the thread demanding answers from people who know as much as they do.
    The role of society as a collective does need to be acknowledged, but that doesn't mean demanding answers from the wrong people, and I firmly believe if it weren't for the church those attitudes wouldn't exist throughout society. It was a culture nurtured by the church. You can't discount the power it had either. (That isn't an attack on practising catholics who actually follow the true teachings of Christ by the way).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    I still cant get my head around GlaxoSmith Klein doing experiments with vaccines on the babies in these homes. Totally against Nuremburg and utterly illegal. And we "trust" the government to conduct an "independent" enquiry?????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    Smidge wrote: »
    I still cant get my head around GlaxoSmith Klein doing experiments with vaccines on the babies in these homes. Totally against Nuremburg and utterly illegal. And we "trust" the government to conduct an "independent" enquiry?????

    The last Minister for Children sat on this for the past 3 years. She is now Minister for Justice, what does that tell you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    Birroc wrote: »
    The last Minister for Children sat on this for the past 3 years. She is now Minister for Justice, what does that tell you?

    It tells me one thing for sure. That without even seeing or knowing very much about any "enquiry" into the situation, I have very little faith in it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Listening to Liveline now a bloke recounting how he arrived at one of the mother and baby homes camps unannounced and found scores of heavily pregnant girls on their hands and knees hand cleaning cowsheds on a freezing cold Decembers morning


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Magaggie wrote: »
    Poverty and lack of education are not excuses - but you really cannot discount them as part of the problem. What you say above was the case too but that doesn't mean lack of education and poverty weren't part of the conditions that allowed it to thrive either. I spoke to a man whose parents couldn't stop him from being taken away, because they were so poor.
    I don't see what the issue is with saying "Nobody's covering things up" to someone who was barging around the thread demanding answers from people who know as much as they do.
    The role of society as a collective does need to be acknowledged, but that doesn't mean demanding answers from the wrong people, and I firmly believe if it weren't for the church those attitudes wouldn't exist throughout society. It was a culture nurtured by the church. You can't discount the power it had either. (That isn't an attack on practising catholics who actually follow the true teachings of Christ by the way).

    It all comes down to poverty in the end. People had to make pragmatic decisions and they did, because there was no other choice.

    I read an interesting article a while back about a ‘village of witches’ in some particular East African nation. This particular village was filled with hundreds of women and it was almost wholly comprised of the ill, elderly and outcasts who had been condemned to that place because each had been kicked out of their respective communities on the basis of an accusation of witchcraft.
    Now this sounds barbaric of course, but the Anthropologist writing the article found it difficult to blame their society and it’s strange superstitions. She concluded that what had happened to these women was a product of poverty rather then superstition.
    Accusing these women of ‘Witchcraft’ was merely a societal rationalization to allow it cope with the unthinkable, abandoning the most vulnerable to starvation and death because the healthy members of society could no longer care for the weakest. You were not casting out your mother, your daughter or your ill child, you were casting out a witch, and that rationalization somehow made the awful necessity bearable or at least less painful. Wichcraft created a useful narrative that scactioned unpalatable but necessary choices forced on people by poverty.
    Single mothers became ‘other’ in our society, not because of the church, or because of some peculiar quirk of the Irish character but because they were an unbearable burden on impoverished families in a time where there was no mickey money, council flat or child benefit, so it’s hardly surprising that single parenthood was a taboo.
    If you stripped the latte liberals of everything but the clothes on their back, a single room that they had to share with their entire family and fifty quid a week to live on, then told them that their daughter had gotten herself 'in the family way', you have to wonder how fast they might come to some rather unpalatable decisions about what to do about the situatuation.
    We can blame the Church, and society, but underneath all the rationalizations is the simple fact that when you are poor in a poor country there are unpalatable yet rational choices that we often cloak in the justifications available at the time. Compassion is I'm afraid often reserved for the rich, so too is revisionism.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,635 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    conorhal wrote: »
    It all comes down to poverty in the end. People had to make pragmatic decisions and they did, because there was no other choice.

    I read an interesting article a while back about a ‘village of witches’ in some particular East African nation. This particular village was filled with hundreds of women and it was almost wholly comprised of the ill, elderly and outcasts who had been condemned to that place because each had been kicked out of their respective communities on the basis of an accusation of witchcraft.
    Now this sounds barbaric of course, but the Anthropologist writing the article found it difficult to blame their society and it’s strange superstitions. She concluded that what had happened to these women was a product of poverty rather then superstition.
    Accusing these women of ‘Witchcraft’ was merely a societal rationalization to allow it cope with the unthinkable, abandoning the most vulnerable to starvation and death because the healthy members of society could no longer care for the weakest. You were not casting out your mother, your daughter or your ill child, you were casting out a witch, and that rationalization somehow made the awful necessity bearable or at least less painful. Wichcraft created a useful narrative that scactioned unpalatable but necessary choices forced on people by poverty.
    Single mothers became ‘other’ in our society, not because of the church, or because of some peculiar quirk of the Irish character but because they were an unbearable burden on impoverished families in a time where there was no mickey money, council flat or child benefit, so it’s hardly surprising that single parenthood was a taboo.
    If you stripped the latte liberals of everything but the clothes on their back, a single room that they had to share with their entire family and fifty quid a week to live on, then told them that their daughter had gotten herself 'in the family way', you have to wonder how fast they might come to some rather unpalatable decisions about what to do about the situatuation.
    We can blame the Church, and society, but underneath all the rationalizations is the simple fact that when you are poor in a poor country there are unpalatable yet rational choices that we often cloak in the justifications available at the time. Compassion is I'm afraid often reserved for the rich, so too is revisionism.

    None of that explains the cruelty that was visited upon the 'inmates' of the Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby Homes which was totally unnecessary no matter how poor anyone was.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Hermy wrote: »
    None of that explains the cruelty that was visited upon the 'inmates' of the Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby Homes which was totally unnecessary no matter how poor anyone was.

    Well it kind of does, if you have to do the unthinkable, cast out your own blood as a burden, you have to first dehumanize those you're going to do it to.

    In the example I cited, they cast out women as witches or cursed, but 'mentally ill or morally inferior will do just as nicely.


    It wasn't any different anywhere else despite what we like to tell ourselves, if it was perhaps more prevalent here, that's because we were proportionately poorer then our European neighbors. But lets face it the consequences for unwed mothers wasn't any different in other countries in the thirties and forties. You just substitute Catholicism for 'Victorian values', or 'Calvinist Puritanism' or 'eugenic pragmatism' of some other society and you still end up with the same result. It all comes down to the same motive though, unmarried mothers were a burden that society couldn't bear so it 'got rid of them'.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,635 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    conorhal wrote: »
    Well it kind of does, if you have to do the unthinkable, cast out your own blood as a burden, you have to first dehumanize those you're going to do it to.
    It doesn't.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,635 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    conorhal wrote: »
    It all comes down to poverty in the end. People had to make pragmatic decisions and they did, because there was no other choice.
    The poverty that lead to the existence of these places I can understand. So too the pragmatism that lead to people sending members of their own families into them. What I cannot understand is the manner in which they were treated by so-called christians once inside. No matter how people spin it the inmates of these institutions were treated appallingly by any standard and that cruelty continued in some cases until the 1990's by which time the poverty excuse was no longer valid, if indeed it ever was.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 945 ✭✭✭WhiteWalls


    I have one question on the issue and please don't jump down my neck over it. I am not for one moment defending what these nuns done but could it be argued that these women (the nuns) were brainwashed and they genuinely thought they were doing the right thing in what they were doing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    conorhal wrote: »
    It all comes down to poverty in the end.
    Gotta disagree. Poverty was one of the numerous conditions that helped sustain this hideous system, but the latter didn't all come down to poverty.
    And, as said, the terrible abuse that occurred behind those walls can't be explained by poverty.


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Listening to Liveline now a bloke recounting how he arrived at one of the mother and baby homes camps unannounced and found scores of heavily pregnant girls on their hands and knees hand cleaning cowsheds on a freezing cold Decembers morning

    Did he say they were pregnant? He said up to 20 - NOT scores. He also said "some" were on their hands and knees scrubbing a cowshed floor.
    Not that it makes it right, but exaggerating what someone says isn't right either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Did he say they were pregnant? He said up to 20 - NOT scores. He also said "some" were on their hands and knees scrubbing a cowshed floor.
    Not that it makes it right, but exaggerating what someone says isn't right either.

    Well if it was on Lahvlahnnnn it MUST be true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    WhiteWalls wrote: »
    I have one question on the issue and please don't jump down my neck over it. I am not for one moment defending what these nuns done but could it be argued that these women (the nuns) were brainwashed and they genuinely thought they were doing the right thing in what they were doing?
    Yes.

    And many of them didn't need too much brainwashing, because they grew up in a society where people generally had negative attitudes to unmarried women having babies. In addition, it was often the less intellectually-able in the religious orders who were put into this type of work.

    The nuns in the homes were the foot-soldiers. I think greater blame should be attached to the officers - some in the church, some in public administration, some in political life.

    Most of the culpable people are now dead.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Hermy wrote: »
    The poverty that lead to the existence of these places I can understand. So too the pragmatism that lead to people sending members of their own families into them. What I cannot understand is the manner in which they were treated by so-called christians once inside. No matter how people spin it the inmates of these institutions were treated appallingly by any standard and that cruelty continued in some cases until the 1990's by which time the poverty excuse was no longer valid, if indeed it ever was.

    The nuns were also cruel to one another. Many years ago, I happened to go into my secondary school one Sunday after Mass. I was appalled to see one of the junior nuns
    on her knees cleaning the floors, with one of the senior nuns bent over her, shouting
    at her. This was a brand new school, and the young nun was our business studies
    teacher. The senior nun was our English and French teacher. I could not get back out
    of that building quickly enough!! :( The image is imprinted on my memory, and no
    matter how pleasant the senior nun was to me personally - which she always was -
    I know that she knows what I saw, as does the junior nun. :(

    Another person I know, who had been 'in the nuns' for a few years, and who subsequently left, related an anecdote to me about the time she was on duty
    in the part of the convent where the elderly nuns were housed. She had been
    given instructions not to speak too much or be any way friendly towards the old women. This went totally against her nature; the way she looked at it was that
    these people were in the final years of their lives and deserved some kindness.
    She was hauled over the coals by her superiors for her 'insubordination'. Finally,
    she decided that she could not commit herself to such a life and left before her
    final profession.

    While I am in no way condoning the cruelty of the nuns towards the girls in their
    care, I believe it was an extension of the coldness and heartlessness they displayed
    towards one another.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Yeh there was a hierarchy within the convents. Nuns from poor backgrounds were at the bottom.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,635 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    While I am in no way condoning the cruelty of the nuns towards the girls in their care, I believe it was an extension of the coldness and heartlessness they displayed towards one another.

    Which begs the question why? Why were so-called christians so cruel and cold towards each other and those around them? Why was the rose-tinted view of good old catholic Ireland so at odds with the sad reality? Surely this can't simply be because people were poor!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    The messages of christianity being twisted by those who liked to exert power I guess. Same old story (not just in relation to christianity).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,734 ✭✭✭seenitall


    Christianity is just another name for another mechanism of power, exploitation, and hierarchy. Nothing new.

    Exploit poverty, foster ignorance through pushing fairy-tales about eternal damnation through insubordinance and about salvation through toeing the line, exert moral authority, divide and conquer. An excellent breeding ground for cruelty and psychopathy to thrive.

    Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and boy has the Christianity had the honours for a long time now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Hermy wrote: »
    Which begs the question why? Why were so-called christians so cruel and cold towards each other and those around them? Why was the rose-tinted view of good old catholic Ireland so at odds with the sad reality? Surely this can't simply be because people were poor!

    As they saw it, their lives were devoted to God. They believed that suffering was
    a way of getting closer to God. A nun who taught me in Secondary School used to
    regularly say that we should offer up any pain or disappointment in our lives to God
    to atone to him for our sins.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    This thread is shameful and personifies why those abuses happened and why no "real" investigations will occur, because twisted attitudes still permeate in Irish society.


    1) a statue of the virgin Mary atop of the site.
    2) vigils being promoted for the dead babies.

    Does the irony of the above not strike anyone? religious symbols and rituals of the very institution that created and actioned the events, being lauded as some sort of respect to those children. If they could speak do you think they would thank you for it.

    I'm staggered by how much you all seem to miss the mark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion



    1) a statue of the virgin Mary atop of the site.
    2) vigils being promoted for the dead babies.

    #1 - Statue was there before the scandal broke. Locals put it there. Better than nothing.
    #2 - the "vigil" in Galway did not involve prayers or any religious chatter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    #1 - Statue was there before the scandal broke. Locals put it there. Better than nothing.
    #2 - the "vigil" in Galway did not involve prayers or any religious chatter.

    I know the statue was there before and who erected it. My point is that it is totally inappropriate and at worst a gross insult. Would you travel to Auschwitz and put a Swastika there? What type of mentality would think it is ok to do this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    I know the statue was there before and who erected it. My point is that it is totally inappropriate and at worst a gross insult. Would you travel to Auschwitz and put a Swastika there? What type of mentality would think it is ok to do this?

    Your point is pointless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭nowanathiest


    Your point is pointless.

    I am a former resident of a Mother & Baby home and I can assure you that my point is entirely valid. I speak from direct experience of one of these institutions.

    My baby was forcibly adopted in 1980 and I am now faced with the prospect of possibly having to trace her to see if she was indeed adopted or lies in one of the home graves around Ireland.

    When I pass from this world, I can assure you that no symbol or trace of that religious body will be on show at my funeral.

    A real live one of "them" - would you have guessed it? not quite the same as speculating ridicuously about whether the bodies are in the tank, out of the tank or somewhere else is it? You should be ashamed of yourselves and your ignorance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    I am a former resident of a Mother & Baby home and I can assure you that my point is entirely valid. I speak from direct experience of one of these institutions.

    My baby was forcibly adopted in 1980 and I am now faced with the prospect of possibly having to trace her to see if she was indeed adopted or lies in one of the home graves around Ireland.

    When I pass from this world, I can assure you that no symbol or trace of that religious body will be on show at my funeral.

    A real live one of "them" - would you have guessed it? not quite the same as speculating ridicuously about whether the bodies are in the tank, out of the tank or somewhere else is it? You should be ashamed of yourselves and your ignorance.

    Awful as your experience is, it does not give you control over other people's reactions and ways of coping with these events.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    I am a former resident of a Mother & Baby home and I can assure you that my point is entirely valid. I speak from direct experience of one of these institutions.

    My baby was forcibly adopted in 1980 and I am now faced with the prospect of possibly having to trace her to see if she was indeed adopted or lies in one of the home graves around Ireland.

    When I pass from this world, I can assure you that no symbol or trace of that religious body will be on show at my funeral.

    A real live one of "them" - would you have guessed it? not quite the same as speculating ridicuously about whether the bodies are in the tank, out of the tank or somewhere else is it? You should be ashamed of yourselves and your ignorance.

    I still don't get your point but are you suggesting all mothers and babies from these homes should be atheist?


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  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    #1 - Statue was there before the scandal broke. Locals put it there. Better than nothing.
    #2 - the "vigil" in Galway did not involve prayers or any religious chatter.

    The "vigil" in Galway was organised by a pro choice group, who have hijacked these poor innocents deaths to further their own agenda. SHAME on them.


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