Girls gang raped in India

aloyisious · 12-06-2014 12:45PM

Lou.m wrote: »

We have a mass grave in Galway full of children (that feels awful to say) are you so sure?

I had a epiphany yesterday when I realised, after the Tuam and Cork homes reports broke, that we/those of a Christian-religious belief here in Ireland definitely are not ok to throw stones at other countries/beliefs, when what we viewed as good ethical bases were twisted by liars to suit their own purposes. The management lost the plot.

Wibbs · 12-06-2014 01:43PM

aloyisious wrote: »

I had a epiphany yesterday when I realised, after the Tuam and Cork homes reports broke, that we/those of a Christian-religious belief here in Ireland definitely are not ok to throw stones at other countries/beliefs.

TBperfectlyH this moral equivalence nonsense really grinds my bloody gears. "Oh noes, we can't possibly comment, never mind criticise another cultures areas of moral decay/corruption/horrors/inhumanity[delete as applicable], because we're not perfect and made and make mistakes". Fine so, nobody can ever comment on anything again. IMHO this thinking is at the childish end of liberalism/hippie daftness. I also personally find it having overtones of reverse racism. Moral equivalence is rarely brought to bear in discussions about other white western nations/cultures. Almost like "oh we can't criticise those dark cultures. Bless we expect them to be below par y'know, so let's give them a free ride".

OK let's start looking at the two countries. Let's run up a balance sheet. For all its faults Ireland would be far ahead on pretty much every metric. India is a nation where the vast majority of women are second class citizens, a nation where the idea of untouchables goes through the culture like words in a stick of rock, a nation where childhood mortality is way above what it should be, where corruption from petty through to the highest levels is endemic, where abject poverty sits cheek by jowl with the very rich, the list is a bloody long one.

The Indian media and some politicos had no problem lambasting Ireland over Ms Halappanavar's tragic death. Cool, criticise away, as I said that's their perogative, but if we throw in the moral equivalence nonsense then such commentators took it to the level of ironic farce when faced with the huge social problems in their own backyard.

positron · 12-06-2014 02:48PM

Wibbs wrote: »

OK let's start looking at the two countries. Let's run up a balance sheet. For all its faults Ireland would be far ahead on pretty much every metric. India is a nation where the vast majority of women are second class citizens, a nation where the idea of untouchables goes through the culture like words in a stick of rock, a nation where childhood mortality is way above what it should be, where corruption from petty through to the highest levels is endemic, where abject poverty sits cheek by jowl with the very rich, the list is a bloody long one.

While these are true, can I just point out the fundamental flaw of comparing India and Ireland as 'two nations'. While technically correct, for all intentions and purposes, it's like comparing a mackerel and a blue whale, or like comparing one mosquito again one cobra etc. India is a sixth of the humanity in this planet. And there are dozens of groups of people in India, each bigger than the total popualation of Ireland that enjoy a better quality of life in various ways. But if you were to compare these two as two nations, as two comparable group of people, then yes, your observations hold true.

Wibbs wrote: »

The Indian media and some politicos had no problem lambasting Ireland over Ms Halappanavar's tragic death. Cool, criticise away, as I said that's their perogative, but if we throw in the moral equivalence nonsense then such commentators took it to the level of ironic farce when faced with the huge social problems in their own backyard.

Indian media is a non-stop machine and even a tiny regional language channel would consider themselves (and probably is) a bigger operation than RTE. Asianet for instance is a Malayalam channel network - a language that majority of Irish people wouldn't even know exists - and they would be a much bigger operation than RTE, and they are only one of the such 4 - 5 media corporations that servers people of a small state of India - although that state has 40 million people - and that's just one of the twenty nine states of India. I am saying all this to get the scale of 'India' across.

Now Indian media commenting on Savitha case here - while they story would have been in some regional headlines in India for a day or two and quickly forgotten, that would have made a bigger deal here. And Irish media commenting on India wouldn't ruffle many feathers over there either in fairness. Not out of disrespect - but in scale and size of things, Ireland is small country. That's just the fact.

PS: I remember being India while David Cameroon was visiting India in his capacity as UK Prime Minister. And the news appeared as a small column on the sixth page of my local news paper. Just saying.

Mike747 · 12-06-2014 03:26PM

Wibbs wrote: »

TBperfectlyH this moral equivalence nonsense really grinds my bloody gears. "Oh noes, we can't possibly comment, never mind criticise another cultures areas of moral decay/corruption/horrors/inhumanity[delete as applicable], because we're not perfect and made and make mistakes". Fine so, nobody can ever comment on anything again. IMHO this thinking is at the childish end of liberalism/hippie daftness. I also personally find it having overtones of reverse racism. Moral equivalence is rarely brought to bear in discussions about other white western nations/cultures. Almost like "oh we can't criticise those dark cultures. Bless we expect them to be below par y'know, so let's give them a free ride".

OK let's start looking at the two countries. Let's run up a balance sheet. For all its faults Ireland would be far ahead on pretty much every metric. India is a nation where the vast majority of women are second class citizens, a nation where the idea of untouchables goes through the culture like words in a stick of rock, a nation where childhood mortality is way above what it should be, where corruption from petty through to the highest levels is endemic, where abject poverty sits cheek by jowl with the very rich, the list is a bloody long one.

The Indian media and some politicos had no problem lambasting Ireland over Ms Halappanavar's tragic death. Cool, criticise away, as I said that's their perogative, but if we throw in the moral equivalence nonsense then such commentators took it to the level of ironic farce when faced with the huge social problems in their own backyard.

Yeah its such bs. Ireland and the western world are light years ahead of the rest of the world

Wibbs · 12-06-2014 04:19PM

positron wrote: »

While these are true, can I just point out the fundamental flaw of comparing India and Ireland as 'two nations'. While technically correct, for all intentions and purposes, it's like comparing a mackerel and a blue whale, or like comparing one mosquito again one cobra etc. India is a sixth of the humanity in this planet. And there are dozens of groups of people in India, each bigger than the total popualation of Ireland that enjoy a better quality of life in various ways. But if you were to compare these two as two nations, as two comparable group of people, then yes, your observations hold true.

Even if you compare sub cultures within the whole of both nations Ireland is still way ahead. The rich/middle classes of India, like their equivalents anywhere have access to a better standard of living. No one would judge Ireland on its Smurfitts, O'Briens, Bonos and the like. They will always be a "separate country" within any nation. The fact remains that the poorest person in Ireland isn't within sniffing distance of a rural Indian peasant, never mind those poor bastards in the cities. The poorest of Ireland have a magnitude more access to education, health and potential wealth and there are proportionally a helluva lot fewer of them. The life expectancy figures show this across the nations as a whole. India 65. Ireland 80. That alone speaks volumes.

positron · 12-06-2014 04:27PM

I am not denying any of that. Ireland is a Western European country after all.

StinkyMunkey · 12-06-2014 05:27PM

Candie wrote: »

It's deciding that certain sections of society are sub human that creates these situations to begin with. You don't cancel out brutality with more brutality.

The attitudes towards scheduled castes and tribes, the religious and implicit as well as explicit societal sanctions on the conditions and deprivations that Dalit people experience, all these things brutalise a huge section of Indian society, and it's from that background that atrocities committed both by and against the lowest Castes prosper.

Over 16% of the 1.22 billion population are Dalit people, more than one hundred and sixty million people. Even in a country as huge and diverse as India, that's quite a concentration at the bottom of society's ladder, and the concentration of Dalit is much greater in four key states, where the crimes are also concentrated.

No one should be treated as subhuman regardless of their crimes, the cost to all humans is too high and it adds credence to the status quo to use these words as justification to perpetuate a cycle of brutality.

I know about the caste system in India. i do realise there is a portion of the population who live in abject poverty. Living in poverty or being suppressed by the ruling class does not give you carte blanche to go out and commit this type of crime. Millions live under terrible conditions and are god fearing decent people.

Being poor does not make you sub human, you obviously overlook one critical factor - being the perpertrator of this heinous crime does, or are you going to excuse their actions because of their social standing.

I stand by what i said, i hope they suffer, and suffer a lot for this crime.

aloyisious · 12-06-2014 06:52PM

Wibbs wrote: »

TBperfectlyH this moral equivalence nonsense really grinds my bloody gears. "Oh noes, we can't possibly comment, never mind criticise another cultures areas of moral decay/corruption/horrors/inhumanity[delete as applicable], because we're not perfect and made and make mistakes". Fine so, nobody can ever comment on anything again. IMHO this thinking is at the childish end of liberalism/hippie daftness. I also personally find it having overtones of reverse racism. Moral equivalence is rarely brought to bear in discussions about other white western nations/cultures. Almost like "oh we can't criticise those dark cultures. Bless we expect them to be below par y'know, so let's give them a free ride".

OK let's start looking at the two countries. Let's run up a balance sheet. For all its faults Ireland would be far ahead on pretty much every metric. India is a nation where the vast majority of women are second class citizens, a nation where the idea of untouchables goes through the culture like words in a stick of rock, a nation where childhood mortality is way above what it should be, where corruption from petty through to the highest levels is endemic, where abject poverty sits cheek by jowl with the very rich, the list is a bloody long one.

The Indian media and some politicos had no problem lambasting Ireland over Ms Halappanavar's tragic death. Cool, criticise away, as I said that's their perogative, but if we throw in the moral equivalence nonsense then such commentators took it to the level of ironic farce when faced with the huge social problems in their own backyard.

I should have included - intil we sort our own mess out and ditch the thinking which made us so blind to our subservience, the fear of god put into us by liars and cheats.

steddyeddy · 12-06-2014 06:58PM

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

It's garnering more coverage maybe but India has had this sort of issue occurring for many years.

It has indeed. In part fueled by the caste system.

Piliger · 12-06-2014 07:01PM

aloyisious wrote: »

I had a epiphany yesterday when I realised, after the Tuam and Cork homes reports broke, that we/those of a Christian-religious belief here in Ireland definitely are not ok to throw stones at other countries/beliefs, when what we viewed as good ethical bases were twisted by liars to suit their own purposes. The management lost the plot.

That's a HUGE leap of assumption that I, personally, would not support in any way shape or form :mad:

Piliger · 12-06-2014 07:04PM

UCDVet wrote: »

Are there any cultures that DON'T have different values of the life of a female verse male?

Yes. All of the major western cultures.

Piliger · 12-06-2014 07:08PM

Candie wrote: »

It's deciding that certain sections of society are sub human that creates these situations to begin with. You don't cancel out brutality with more brutality.

The attitudes towards scheduled castes and tribes, the religious and implicit as well as explicit societal sanctions on the conditions and deprivations that Dalit people experience, all these things brutalise a huge section of Indian society, and it's from that background that atrocities committed both by and against the lowest Castes prosper.

Over 16% of the 1.22 billion population are Dalit people, more than one hundred and sixty million people. Even in a country as huge and diverse as India, that's quite a concentration at the bottom of society's ladder, and the concentration of Dalit is much greater in four key states, where the crimes are also concentrated.

No one should be treated as subhuman regardless of their crimes, the cost to all humans is too high and it adds credence to the status quo to use these words as justification to perpetuate a cycle of brutality.

The truth is that India is the biggest and the most racist and apartheid country on the planet. Racism and apartheid are ingrained in the whole culture across the country and it is ignored completely by the rest of the world who focus on nothing but their 'big elections' and food spices, it seems to me.

This is a country that is not only racist and apartheid, but it has an enormous level of abject poverty yet it spends tens of billions every year on nuclear weapons and a space program. I thinkIndia is a despicable and obnoxious place and the whole world should wake up to it and apply the same sanctions as we did against apartheid South Africa.

Anyone who draws any parallel whatsoever with Ireland or the Wester World is off their trolley imho.

petronius · 12-06-2014 07:09PM

India a country I love but it angers me the way women are treated.
The apartheid of the caste system..
The most heart breaking thing I seen was the acid wives...
The Nation can only address these rapes have convictions and punish officials who dont act appropriately and who condone or ignore the gravity of such actions.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-06-2014 10:05PM

Wouldn't sanctions just cause the ordinary people there even more suffering?

Piliger · 12-06-2014 10:06PM

Magaggie wrote: »

Wouldn't sanctions just cause the ordinary people there even more suffering?

I don't think so.

Mike747 · 12-06-2014 11:44PM

Piliger wrote: »

The truth is that India is the biggest and the most racist and apartheid country on the planet. Racism and apartheid are ingrained in the whole culture across the country and it is ignored completely by the rest of the world who focus on nothing but their 'big elections' and food spices, it seems to me.

This is a country that is not only racist and apartheid, but it has an enormous level of abject poverty yet it spends tens of billions every year on nuclear weapons and a space program. I thinkIndia is a despicable and obnoxious place and the whole world should wake up to it and apply the same sanctions as we did against apartheid South Africa.

Anyone who draws any parallel whatsoever with Ireland or the Wester World is off their trolley imho.

Yeah it's got huge problems but because the perpetrators of the racism and violence are coloured you won't find too many speaking out against it in the western world.

Piliger · 13-06-2014 12:32AM

Mike747 wrote: »

Yeah it's got huge problems but because the perpetrators of the racism and violence are coloured you won't find too many speaking out against it in the western world.

Perhaps that is it.

positron · 13-06-2014 10:06AM

Piliger wrote: »

The truth is that India is the biggest and the most racist and apartheid country on the planet. Racism and apartheid are ingrained in the whole culture across the country and it is ignored completely by the rest of the world who focus on nothing but their 'big elections' and food spices, it seems to me.

This is a country that is not only racist and apartheid, but it has an enormous level of abject poverty yet it spends tens of billions every year on nuclear weapons and a space program. I thinkIndia is a despicable and obnoxious place and the whole world should wake up to it and apply the same sanctions as we did against apartheid South Africa.

Anyone who draws any parallel whatsoever with Ireland or the Wester World is off their trolley imho.

I don't mean any disrespect, but you are talking out of your rear end. I am not even sure if you are serious or just trolling. :rolleyes:

13-06-2014 11:30AM

Many people seem to have a poor understanding of the word racist on this thread.

Piliger · 13-06-2014 02:28PM

positron wrote: »

I don't mean any disrespect, but you are talking out of your rear end. I am not even sure if you are serious or just trolling. :rolleyes:

So you're another one of these people that label people who they disagree with as trolls ? What utter nonsense. yet you have nothing whatsoever to say in disagreement. Just calling people names.

positron · 13-06-2014 02:45PM

If someone shows such poor judgement to term the ever diminishing 'caste system' of India as 'racist and apartheid state' does not deserve any better explanation. It is as out-landing as calling Irish people a 'colonial force' as some Irish worked in the British Army. It's like stating Ireland is a country of travelers after watching a TV3 documentary.

It's silly and it's clearly wrong. It's not even something that can be argued as a matter of opinion. It's factually wrong. I mean how much 'wronger' can you be?

Piliger · 13-06-2014 03:17PM

positron wrote: »

If someone shows such poor judgement to term the ever diminishing 'caste system' of India as 'racist and apartheid state' does not deserve any better explanation. It is as out-landing as calling Irish people a 'colonial force' as some Irish worked in the British Army. It's like stating Ireland is a country of travelers after watching a TV3 documentary.

It's silly and it's clearly wrong. It's not even something that can be argued as a matter of opinion. It's factually wrong. I mean how much 'wronger' can you be?

Trying to deny the naked truth of the state of racism and apartheid in India is a joke. Hundreds of millions of people damned to menial jobs and ghettos because of their caste, and damned to poverty as well. There is also little real sign omg this system diminishing.

positron · 13-06-2014 03:19PM

Do you really believe what you just said? I am curious of how you came to such a stark (and incorrect) opinion of the state of affairs. Have you been to India? Or are you gathering info thru proper research, or are you just reflecting on the news that have caught your attention?

I am genuinely curious.

Piliger · 13-06-2014 04:08PM

positron wrote: »

Do you really believe what you just said? I am curious of how you came to such a stark (and incorrect) opinion of the state of affairs. Have you been to India? Or are you gathering info thru proper research, or are you just reflecting on the news that have caught your attention?

I am genuinely curious.

I don't mean any disrespect, but you are talking out of your rear end. I am not even sure if you are serious or just trolling

For someone who is so certain and so supremely informed, you don't seem to have much to offer in terms of your own contribution.

tritium · 13-06-2014 04:18PM

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

I know about the caste system in India. i do realise there is a portion of the population who live in abject poverty. Living in poverty or being suppressed by the ruling class does not give you carte blanche to go out and commit this type of crime. Millions live under terrible conditions and are god fearing decent people.

Being poor does not make you sub human, you obviously overlook one critical factor - being the perpertrator of this heinous crime does, or are you going to excuse their actions because of their social standing.

I stand by what i said, i hope they suffer, and suffer a lot for this crime.

I think youve misunderstood. The poor and supressed were the victims here not the perpetrators

positron · 13-06-2014 04:27PM

Piliger wrote: »

For someone who is so certain and so supremely informed, you don't seem to have much to offer in terms of your own contribution.

You are not answering any of my direct questions. I will ignore that for a second and will go on record that I am from India. I grew up there, still have family there, and I have traveled to and lived in various parts of India. I have been living here in Ireland for over a decade now, but I still spend 1-2 months in India every year. My knowledge is first hand and up to date and hence relevant. I do not have a problem in calling India a developing country and pointing out all sorts of wrong things that happen there and I have no agenda of defending India in anyway either.

Now it would be really great if you can answer any of my questions from last few posts.

Piliger · 13-06-2014 04:28PM

positron wrote: »

You are not answering any of my direct questions. I will ignore that for a second and will go on record that I am from India. I grew up there, still have family there, and I have traveled to and lived in various parts of India. I have been living here in Ireland for over a decade now, but I still spend 1-2 months in India every year. My knowledge is first hand and up to date and hence relevant. I do not have a problem in calling India a developing country and pointing out all sorts of wrong things that happen there and I have no agenda of defending India in anyway either.

Now it would be really great if you can answer any of my questions from last few posts.

In that case, if that is so, you have no need to be reminded of how it is in India.

positron · 13-06-2014 04:32PM

Piliger wrote: »

In that case, if that is so, you have no need to be reminded of how it is in India.

Okay, so again no answers, so that clear as day now I guess. I wasn't sure earlier on if you are just trolling, but now it is. Well, nothing more to be said I suppose.

/Goes away to have a good laugh about "experts on the interwebs"

old hippy · 13-06-2014 05:15PM

dodderangler wrote: »

They're pure scum.
No ifs or buts about it
They're just scumbags and I honestly feel same should be done to them.

major bill wrote: »

I know it's the sunday world but the quote at the end is shocking

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/crime-desk/donal-macintyre-s-crime-cafe/teenage-girls-gang-raped-and-hung-from-tree

no time for rapists so if there is no shadow of doubt the people are guilty then a pad saw to the mickey is good enough punishment.

Can feed it to the human rights PC gang afterwards if they give out

smurgen wrote: »

there's not adequate words to register my disgust.anyone who aided,enabled these sub humans either before,during or after the rape/killings should be done away with. I can honestly say that reading that has ruined my night ffs

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

too many rape stories coming from India. but they're not just rape, but gang rape
Cut the balls of these people.

Tilikum wrote: »

I read yesterday a guy can murder his wife, then go to her family and apologise, or offer the family money. I think it was called 'honour money' and if the family accept, the case against him will be dropped.

I MEAN WTF?

In my honest opinion it is the worst country on the planet. These scumbag rapists should either be shot or thrown into general population with the other prisoners. Actually that goes for any country. Rapists & paedos should be put into general population in all prisons. I bet it would cut numbers waaay down.

What's to stop these scumbags if they know all that will happen to them is, they'll get put into a cell with another paedo/rapist. Where they can spend their days chatting/getting off on what done.

I tell ya, I would sort this **** out in no time at all.

Fact.

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

Just when I think I can't be shocked, ****e like this emerges. I could care less about your religion or what country you are from, how a person can do that to another human is beyond me. Hopefully it's a fast track execution for them, the more messy the better, sends a clear message to these sub humans.

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Eye for an eye.
Bring out Bubba.

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

I know about the caste system in India. i do realise there is a portion of the population who live in abject poverty. Living in poverty or being suppressed by the ruling class does not give you carte blanche to go out and commit this type of crime. Millions live under terrible conditions and are god fearing decent people.

Being poor does not make you sub human, you obviously overlook one critical factor - being the perpertrator of this heinous crime does, or are you going to excuse their actions because of their social standing.

I stand by what i said, i hope they suffer, and suffer a lot for this crime.

Mike747 wrote: »

Yeah its such bs. Ireland and the western world are light years ahead of the rest of the world

Oh yes, we are blessed with enlightened reasoning and logic.

Piliger · 13-06-2014 05:31PM

old hippy wrote: »

Oh yes, we are blessed with enlightened reasoning and logic.

Well that seems pretty rich from someone who hasn't contributed anything and then drops in to try to provoke a flame.

Girls gang raped in India

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