Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

K-9 · 11-06-2014 06:38PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's not what is happening though, One brass plate here holds a lot of one companies patents using this.

I thought the last Budget changed that.

darkpagandeath · 11-06-2014 06:47PM

K-9 wrote: »

I thought the last Budget changed that.

Well they did close down some loopholes to do with subsidiaries.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 06:52PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Not in the least, just individuals taking the tone its the EU picking on poor olde Ireland; instead what we have is corporations exploiting globalization, the free trade blocks, relative free movement of capital and playing countries off against each other all in order to pay a miniscule amount of tax on exorbitant profits.

All mankind is divided into three classes: those who are immovable, those who are movable, and those who move. - Benjamin Franklin

Corporations pay low tax because we want to attract them to Ireland and give them a reason to stay. The average person pays more tax because the average person won't move if taxes are high.

andrewdeerpark · 11-06-2014 07:54PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All mankind is divided into three classes: those who are immovable, those who are movable, and those who move. - Benjamin Franklin

Corporations pay low tax because we want to attract them to Ireland and give them a reason to stay. The average person pays more tax because the average person won't move if taxes are high.

That's a fair point.

Another point of view on the issue:

http://americanprogress.org/issues/tax-reform/report/2014/01/09/81681/offshore-corporate-profits-the-only-thing-trapped-is-tax-revenue/

BarryLyndon · 11-06-2014 08:07PM

Disclaimer: i am not talking about the CT % rate but the obvious shenanigans that are being employed by certain entities to have effective rates of 2-3%.

I think if Irish politicians keep their eye on the long game, they will play dumb but be seen to take this seriously and comply with the EU and their investigations. Within the larger economies, there is increasing political pressure to curb global tax avoidance (though it's still on the fringes to an extent, certainly in the likes of the UK). Citizens within other EU states are well within their rights to lobby their governments on this issue and ask why global firms find it so easy to manipulate the rules to their advantage. To most right-minded people, the chicanery is obvious.

It's not something that Ireland should be apologetic about but despite the fact that it is currently a distinct comparative advantage, I think you have to anticipate that this will not be the case for much longer. It's not a matter of relenting to the EU overloads so much as sticking your finger in the air, and realising that this is not a sensible long-term strategy.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 08:10PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

That's a fair point.

Another point of view on the issue:

http://americanprogress.org/issues/tax-reform/report/2014/01/09/81681/offshore-corporate-profits-the-only-thing-trapped-is-tax-revenue/

America is different to Ireland though, large MNCs won't realistically pull out of America but they could pull out of Ireland.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 08:13PM

BarryLyndon wrote: »

Disclaimer: i am not talking about the CT % rate but the obvious shenanigans that are being employed by certain entities to have effective rates of 2-3%.

I think if Irish politicians keep their eye on the long game, they will play dumb but be seen to take this seriously and comply with the EU and their investigations. Within the larger economies, there is increasing political pressure to curb global tax avoidance (though it's still on the fringes to an extent, certainly in the likes of the UK). Citizens within other EU states are well within their rights to lobby their governments on this issue and ask why global firms find it so easy to manipulate the rules to their advantage. To most right-minded people, the chicanery is obvious.

It's not something that Ireland should be apologetic about but despite the fact that it is currently a distinct comparative advantage, I think you have to anticipate that this will not be the case for much longer. It's not a matter of relenting to the EU overloads so much as sticking your finger in the air, and realising that this is not a sensible long-term strategy.

I don't see any reason why Ireland has to relent on anything. There is no legal mechanism in which the EU can force our compliance on new rules.

BarryLyndon · 11-06-2014 08:37PM

If only politicians could take your principled stand (we'd be in quite a state lol)....

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 08:40PM

It's about time these companies pay up, or the fook out. Spongers.

Where'll they all go ? :rolleyes:

Baffles me how many fall into the 'they'all leave trap'

JD Dublin · 11-06-2014 08:42PM

Hootanany wrote: »

But if we even getting 12.5% but we are not false accounting

The effective rate in France for small businesses is about 7% - lower than our 12.5% rate. You never hear that from anyone though. At least we have a transparent system where everyone gets the same rate. Theoretically anyway.

Anyway for all the people worried that Apple etc might leave Ireland - the 12.5% is not enough to keep them here. They could just run a brass-plate operation for that, like lots of the banks in the IFSC, and run their profits through Ireland that way. They are here for other reasons, like the English-speaking, well-educated workforce with ready access to the European market.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 08:46PM

Rightwing wrote: »

It's about time these companies pay up, or the fook out. Spongers.

Where'll they all go ? :rolleyes:

Baffles me how many fall into the 'they'all leave trap'

You're not very right wing..

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 08:52PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're not very right wing..

Indeed not.

I think corporations should pay tax, and plenty of it, and bondholders aren't all that bad.

Oh yeah, and Europe saved us, contrary to what we're told.

Valetta · 11-06-2014 09:00PM

Rightwing wrote: »

It's about time these companies pay up, or the fook out. Spongers.

Where'll they all go ? :rolleyes:

Baffles me how many fall into the 'they'all leave trap'

Why do you think they are here in the first place?

For the weather?

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 09:05PM

Valetta wrote: »

Why do you think they are here in the first place?

For the weather?

A few facts, they have to go somewhere, and the moon is a non runner. If Enda or Martin tell us it is, trust me, it isn't.

Secondly, they will need a presence in Europe, and access to the world's biggest market. We have to play by the EU rules. Speaking English and supplying an educated workforce is enough.

Many Irish companies employ tens of thousands of workers in America and pay well over 20% corporation tax, the question remains, why aren't they all leaving?

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 09:16PM

BarryLyndon wrote: »

If only politicians could take your principled stand (we'd be in quite a state lol)....

what?

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 09:21PM

Rightwing wrote: »

A few facts, they have to go somewhere, and the moon is a non runner. If Enda or Martin tell us it is, trust me, it isn't.

Secondly, they will need a presence in Europe, and access to the world's biggest market. We have to play by the EU rules. Speaking English and supplying an educated workforce is enough.

Many Irish companies employ tens of thousands of workers in America and pay well over 20% corporation tax, the question remains, why aren't they all leaving?

Most countries in Europe have significant English speaking populations. In Scandinavia, the Germanies and the Lowcountries it's hard to find a college graduate who doesn't speak English.

Because America is a massive country more likeable to Europe than Ireland. Imagine instead America was 50 separate countries each with it's own corporations tax within a pan-American free trade block and corporations had to decide what state to set up in. All else being equal they will set up in the country with the lowest corp tax.

Tokarev · 11-06-2014 09:23PM

Pay your proper tax like every other tax payer in Ireland.

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 09:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Most countries in Europe have significant English speaking populations. In Scandinavia, the Germanies and the Lowcountries it's hard to find a college graduate who doesn't speak English.

Because America is a massive country more likeable to Europe than Ireland. Imagine instead America was 50 separate countries each with it's own corporations tax within a pan-American free trade block and corporations had to decide what state to set up in. All else being equal they will set up in the country with the lowest corp tax.

Correct, that's why we need a standardised tax rate across the union. It will happen, there should be no doubt about that. This is not an assault on Ireland. Countries need the revenue and there's only so much they can take from the citizens.

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 09:26PM

Piliger wrote: »

Exactly. And Kenny has held the line under intense pressure all through this government. Bloody great job.

Servile Enda kenny couldn't hold his mickey, he'd lick the germans and yanks holes clean for them if his handlers gave him half a chance.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 09:27PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct, that's why we need a standardised tax rate across the union. It will happen, there should be no doubt about that. This is not an assault on Ireland. Countries need the revenue and there's only so much they can take from the citizens.

How will it happen? There is no mechanism in which the EU can compel Ireland to change it's corp tax policy and it's not in our interests to comply.

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 09:42PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How will it happen? There is no mechanism in which the EU can compel Ireland to change it's corp tax policy and it's not in our interests to comply.

They'll manage it somehow.
Not in our interests in a way only. We've become far too reliant on MNCs and have little indigenous industry as a result.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 09:49PM

Rightwing wrote: »

They'll manage it somehow.
Not in our interests in a way only. We've become far too reliant on MNCs and have little indigenous industry as a result.

How? You're trying to pass off something that's not possible without our compliance as inevitable.

Ireland doesn't have a large population in the centre of Europe like France or Germany does, our capacity to develop indigenous industry is much more limited than theirs.

Attracting foreign investment, particularly American, is the only advantage we have over them.

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 10:01PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How? You're trying to pass off something that's not possible without our compliance as inevitable.

Ireland doesn't have a large population in the centre of Europe like France or Germany does, our capacity to develop indigenous industry is much more limited than theirs.

Attracting foreign investment, particularly American, is the only advantage we have over them.

If the EU doesn't do it, the Americans will. One way or another these tax avoiders will be brought into line. No question about that.

And no point in blaming in Enda folks.

Iwasfrozen · 11-06-2014 10:05PM

Rightwing wrote: »

If the EU doesn't do it, the Americans will. One way or another these tax avoiders will be brought into line. No question about that.

And no point in blaming in Enda folks.

How? Again you're taking something that's impossible and claiming it's inevitable.

In order to agree on making MNCs pay more tax would necessitate the co-operation of every country in the EU and it's not in our interests to comply.

emo72 · 11-06-2014 10:08PM

Rightwing wrote: »

And no point in blaming in Enda folks.

wouldnt blame him. however it would be prudent to be a bit forward thinking, instead of reactionary. at the moment we have all our eggs in one giant basket.

is there any politician or senior civil servant thinking about the future and how to avoid geting caught out if they start to leave? is there ****.

it will be "it happened on your watch" dail retort ****.

is anyone thinking ahead?

Rightwing · 11-06-2014 10:11PM

emo72 wrote: »

wouldnt blame him. however it would be prudent to be a bit forward thinking, instead of reactionary. at the moment we have all our eggs in one giant basket.

is there any politician or senior civil servant thinking about the future and how to avoid geting caught out if they start to leave? is there ****.

it will be "it happened on your watch" dail retort ****.

is anyone thinking ahead?

Good post.

They are thinking ahead alright, on the best way to secure their multiple pensions.

ElizaT33 · 11-06-2014 10:14PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Good post.

They are thinking ahead alright, on the best way to secure their multiple pensions.

So true

andrewdeerpark · 11-06-2014 10:57PM

JD Dublin wrote: »

The effective rate in France for small businesses is about 7% - lower than our 12.5% rate. You never hear that from anyone though. At least we have a transparent system where everyone gets the same rate. Theoretically anyway.

Anyway for all the people worried that Apple etc might leave Ireland - the 12.5% is not enough to keep them here. They could just run a brass-plate operation for that, like lots of the banks in the IFSC, and run their profits through Ireland that way. They are here for other reasons, like the English-speaking, well-educated workforce with ready access to the European market.

Are you mad; the Double Irish crossed with the dutch sandwich with a quick stop off in the Cayman Islands is transparent????

JD Dublin · 11-06-2014 11:12PM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Are you mad; the Double Irish crossed with the dutch sandwich with a quick stop off in the Cayman Islands is transparent????

The debate was orginaly about Ireland's tax rate, not Double Irish. The Double Irish is as a result of large American MNCs not wanting to repatriate their profits. It is also a result of these huge ultra profitable companies sucking in vast amounts of resources from the rest of the world, then sitting back and salting it away as pointed out by previous posters.

If the Americans and the rest of the world change the tax laws so that companies have to pay their taxes where their customers are located, then it all changes. That is what Base Erosion and Profit Shifting ( BEPS ) is all about. And once the governments of the large economies get around the table, they will agree to BEPS then the jig will be up for the large MNCs who shelter income in Ireland. We won't miss a lot of them because they pay nothing in Corporation Tax, they will continue to pay their employees and hence PAYE.

andrewdeerpark · 11-06-2014 11:38PM

JD Dublin wrote: »

The debate was orginaly about Ireland's tax rate, not Double Irish. The Double Irish is as a result of large American MNCs not wanting to repatriate their profits. It is also a result of these huge ultra profitable companies sucking in vast amounts of resources from the rest of the world, then sitting back and salting it away as pointed out by previous posters.

If the Americans and the rest of the world change the tax laws so that companies have to pay their taxes where their customers are located, then it all changes. That is what Base Erosion and Profit Shifting ( BEPS ) is all about. And once the governments of the large economies get around the table, they will agree to BEPS then the jig will be up for the large MNCs who shelter income in Ireland. We won't miss a lot of them because they pay nothing in Corporation Tax, they will continue to pay their employees and hence PAYE.

I disagree, no one has any issue with Ireland's low corporation tax, I would defend that myself. Its just all the crookery and schemes the mean companies like Apple are paying less than 2% tax on massive profits.

On another point, I would love to know where the name double-Irish came from it must be over a "wolf of wall street" type binge weekend in London or one of those financial spots! Their must be some story their...

Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

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