Looks like Revenue are in a spot of bother

Hootanany

http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/eu-launches-probe-into-revenue-special-deals-for-multinational-firms-30333572.html



How much of encomamy could be solved if these companies paid their tax

Captain Chaos

If these Multinationals had to pay all their tax they would pull out of Ireland full stop. They are only here for the tax breaks. If they go we'd have even less revenue income.

My name is URL

However, Taoiseach Enda Kenny – who is on a trade mission in Silicon Valley – has indicated that the Government will fight to defend its reputation on the issue.

That's us fcuked then

hatrickpatrick

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

Hootanany

But if we even getting 12.5% but we are not false accounting

Mr_Red

These companies employee people and the government taxes the employees.

they bring great business into the communities like areas in Cork, Kildare , Dublin, Galway and so on.

The EU can go fcuk themselves

mike65

Mr_Red wrote: »

These companies employee people and the government taxes the employees.

they bring great business into the communities like areas in Cork, Kildare , Dublin, Galway and so on

The EU can go fcuk themselves

fixed your post

My name is URL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

Could they have launched a probe like this or forced companies here to repay taxes if the Lisbon Treaty was not passed?

I mean it seems like FG etc want to have their cake and eat it too. They want closer ties with Europe but don't want to comply with EU tax regulations. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Mr. Incognito

There is no special deal or false accounting. It is perfectly legitimate to pay reduced rates using r and d credits.

Companies will always offshore their profits using company structures.

However every employee here is contributing income tax, vat, and services that supply these companies.

Stop spouting propaganda. Unless every OECD country wants to harmonise their rates these companies will hq in Bermuda, the Isle of Man etc.. Compared to them we are actually expensive.

Hootanany

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

There is no special deal or false accounting. It is perfectly legitimate to pay reduced rates using r and d credits.

Companies will always offshore their profits using company structures.

However every employee here is contributing income tax, vat, and services that supply these companies.

Stop spouting propaganda. Unless every OECD country wants to harmonise their rates these companies will hq in Bermuda, the Isle of Man etc.. Compared to them we are actually expensive.

Propaganda I think not, what about letting the SMA's gti a bite of that Cherry?

Piliger

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

Exactly. And Kenny has held the line under intense pressure all through this government. Bloody great job.

Piliger

My name is URL wrote: »

Could they have launched a probe like this or forced companies here to repay taxes if the Lisbon Treaty was not passed?

I mean it seems like FG etc want to have their cake and eat it too. They want closer ties with Europe but don't want to comply with EU tax regulations. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What are you talking about ? There is no evidence whatsoever that Ireland has broken any EU Tax Regulations.
This is all a big blowhard attempt to intimidate Ireland into agreeing to raise our taxes to match those in Germany and France.
Kenny has dug in his heels and said no way. Rightly.
We are on the fringes of the EU. A small island. We need some edge in order to bring business here, otherwise any multinational would prefer to be in the geographical centre of the EU !
FG have stuck to this policy and it is paying dividends for the country in bringing jobs and taxes.

_Brian

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

There is no special deal or false accounting. It is perfectly legitimate to pay reduced rates using r and d credits.

Companies will always offshore their profits using company structures.

However every employee here is contributing income tax, vat, and services that supply these companies.

Stop spouting propaganda. Unless every OECD country wants to harmonise their rates these companies will hq in Bermuda, the Isle of Man etc.. Compared to them we are actually expensive.

Interestingly, at least one of the major Multinationals here is actually registered in the Caymen Islands.. I'm fairly sure that's a tax thing.

Bubbaclaus

Hootanany wrote: »

How much of encomamy could be solved if these companies paid their tax

What??



The Irish economy would be ****ed and the Irish people would be stuck emigrating thanks to a 20% unemployment rate if the multinationals here suddenly became forced to pay more tax.

emo72

dont you just love the EU? all the horrible **** we have to opt in. and the good **** we have to opt out. **** off EU

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mike65 wrote: »

fixed your post

And so on..should stand. PayPal and eBay in Louth for instance and several more. Intel is another!

scallywaggles

It's all a bit blown out of proportion really, it's not like the multinationals will suddenly move elsewhere in Europe if the whole of Europe has the same corpo tax rate, unless they establish themselves as French companies, then they can avail of the 0% French corpo tax rate that nobody ever mentions...

Piliger

scallywaggles wrote: »

It's all a bit blown out of proportion really, it's not like the multinationals will suddenly move elsewhere in Europe if the whole of Europe has the same corpo tax rate, unless they establish themselves as French companies, then they can avail of the 0% French corpo tax rate that nobody ever mentions...

Except they can and will. Bring in the centre of Europe is a huge advantage for logistics and shipping.

Piliger

emo72 wrote: »

dont you just love the EU? all the horrible **** we have to opt in. and the good **** we have to opt out. **** off EU

Best thing Ireland ever did was to get into this great EU.

scallywaggles

Piliger wrote: »

Except they can and will. Bring in the centre of Europe is a huge advantage for logistics and shipping.

Majority are s/w and service companies now, little shipping and logistics needed. Ireland also has an abundant supply of other non-corpo tax related benefits that they give to companies so there is more to it than just the 12.5%.

Hootanany

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

What??



The Irish economy would be ****ed and the Irish people would be stuck emigrating thanks to a 20% unemployment rate if the multinationals here suddenly became forced to pay more tax.

But we are emigrating in droves.

Akrasia

its all about the transfer pricing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_pricing

awec

Other EU leaders really hate our corp tax structures because it brings money in to Ireland instead of their countries and makes Ireland an attractive prospect when it otherwise wouldn't be able to compete.

My name is URL

Piliger wrote: »

What are you talking about ? There is no evidence whatsoever that Ireland has broken any EU Tax Regulations.

How do you know what evidence does not exist? The EC obviously has reason to suspect that regulations may not have been followed.. hence the investigation.

This is all a big blowhard attempt to intimidate Ireland into agreeing to raise our taxes to match those in Germany and France.

Doesn't France have a lower effective tax rate than we do? That's what Enda Kenny has time and time again claimed anyway. Has he been talking through his hole all this time?!

Anyway, from the article -

The commission is not questioning this country's 12.5pc corporation tax rate

So that kind of blows your conspiracy theory out of the water.

jobeenfitz

There are loads of big companies paying feck all taxes around the world by laundering their profits through Ireland(and other countries) by just having a head office here.

I don't want them gone but there is two sides to this story.

How many people whinged when Bono an co. moved their biz to save tax.

The less tax these big corporations pay the more the workers will have to pay.

Its not all about putting on the green jersey and singing the soldiers song.

Bubbaclaus

Hootanany wrote: »

But we are emigrating in droves.

And you would like to double or maybe even treble that?

Ireland's CT regime is a massive benefit to our economy. I really don't understand why Irish people criticize it. It is a good thing for us.

tayto lover

If I employ a few lads can I get a reduced road tax on the auld Merc?

padma

Social welfare for big business.

Aidric

My name is URL wrote: »

Doesn't France have a lower effective tax rate than we do? That's what Enda Kenny has time and time again claimed anyway. Has he been talking through his hole all this time?!

Effective CT rate of 8.2% according to a recent PWC study.

DanWall

Why does the EU not enforce us to stop the vehicle registration tax? because there is no money in it for them

yr one

All Europe wants is Ireland to share the multi nationals, they think it's too much for one country and they would rather see them spread through out Europe paying higher taxes.

The jobs and chain effect that multi nationals have in Ireland will cause another collapse, thousands of people are hired directly and indirect by these businesses, fair enough I would like to see them in the correct tax bracket, but if that means jeopardising their future in Ireland I could live with it.

I know approx 12 people who work for these businesses, where would they work if it were to leave Ireland??

andrewdeerpark

Some of the anti-EU rants here are beyond belief, the issue is large corporations like Apple are funneling Billions in earnings through Ireland then washing it though another country and bringing it back (Google the Double Irish and the Dutch Sandwich) in again paying an effective tax rate far below the 12% corporation TAX rate.

If they paid 12% no one would have an issue, the US congress estimated Apple are paying an effective tax rate of between 4-6%!!! Ridiculous, and as other people said this causes more taxes on ordinary workers.

Tarzana

Captain Chaos wrote: »

If these Multinationals had to pay all their tax they would pull out of Ireland full stop. They are only here for the tax breaks. If they go we'd have even less revenue income.

True, but it is mad Ted that USC takes in as much as corporation tax in this country.

awec

jobeenfitz wrote: »

The less tax these big corporations pay the more the workers will have to pay.

The more tax these big corporations pay the less workers there will be to pay.

If the cost of doing business in Ireland goes up via tax then savings would be made elsewhere - jobs and investment.

These companies bring thousands of jobs and pretty well paid ones at that. The people who work in these jobs pay income tax - a majority of them I'd imagine in the 40% tax bracket.

Corp tax is just an easy target for people to get flustered about because they see that 12% figure.

andrewdeerpark

awec wrote: »

The more tax these big corporations pay the less workers there will be to pay.

If the cost of doing business in Ireland goes up via tax then savings would be made elsewhere - jobs and investment.

These companies bring thousands of jobs and pretty well paid ones at that. The people who work in these jobs pay income tax - a majority of them I'd imagine in the 40% tax bracket.

Corp tax is just an easy target for people to get flustered about because they see that 12% figure.

The issue is they are not even paying close to 12%....

My name is URL

awec wrote: »

Corp tax is just an easy target for people to get flustered about because they see that 12% figure.

Do you think it's unreasonable to expect companies to pay that 12%?

Because that's what the EC's complaint is. That they are not effectively paying that much.

dissed doc

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This whole corporation tax business is f*cking ridiculous. If other countries for one reason or another can't compete with Ireland, tough sh!t - there are plenty of strings countries like Germany pull with regard to the ECB which Irish people would love to do something about but we can't. This is something we have control over which they don't, so unless they want to compromise on bank debt and bondholders, they can f*ck right off.

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

Otherwise it's just bravado, saying other countries get better deals, pull strings as well. It's simply stupid to have a country depending on a trickle of multinationals. We need actual products to sell, high quality, small scale as we are not really an industrialised country.

Instead the policies are decided by pissed up politicians at some parties in the US, meeting representatives from Dell or Microsoft and signing deals where the country long term loses out as we lack the development of local industry and short term we get some jabs and jabs are important if you want de votes.

awec

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you think it's unreasonable to expect companies to pay that 12%?

Because that's what the EC's complaint is. That they are not effectively paying that much.

The EC complains about the 12% as well.

The ECs real complaint is our corp tax in general and the fact that it brings money to Ireland as opposed to some other EU countries.

The system as it is today, complete with the loopholes is what brings investment to Ireland and is what keeps thousands of jobs here.

This "corp tax loopholes cause the average joe to pay more tax" is pretty mythical. Do you think if they closed the loopholes that income tax, PRSI, USC or whatever other tax you pay would be cut at all?

andrewdeerpark

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you think it's unreasonable to expect companies to pay that 12%?

Because that's what the EC's complaint is. That they are not effectively paying that much.

What these corporations are doing is on a par to the mob in Vegas in the 60's laundering their money through casinos except they were amateurs, the new breed of corporate accountants, bankers, lawyers and schemers are smart, well financed and far more powerful. For tax purposes some of these companies are stateless ....

awec

dissed doc wrote: »

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

Otherwise it's just bravado, saying other countries get better deals, pull strings as well. It's simply stupid to have a country depending on a trickle of multinationals. We need actual products to sell, high quality, small scale as we are not really an industrialised country.

Instead the policies are decided by pissed up politicians at some parties in the US, meeting representatives from Dell or Microsoft and signing deals where the country long term loses out as we lack the development of local industry and short term we get some jabs and jabs are important if you want de votes.

Short term?

Dell and Microsoft have been in Ireland for over 25 years (Dell might be just under 25).

Apple has been here over 30.

Some "short term" to get some jobs, eh?

andrewdeerpark

awec wrote: »

The EC complains about the 12% as well.

The ECs real complaint is our corp tax in general and the fact that it brings money to Ireland as opposed to some other EU countries.

The system as it is today, complete with the loopholes is what brings investment to Ireland and is what keeps thousands of jobs here.

This "corp tax loopholes cause the average joe to pay more tax" is pretty mythical. Do you think if they closed the loopholes that income tax, PRSI, USC or whatever other tax you pay would be cut at all?

So TAX avoidance is ok evasion is not.

It seems to me the TAX evasion is what little people do and get caught with penalties, tax avoidance is when the corporate accountants and lawyers are cleverer and more powerful that the tax authorities and tell them to head off....

andrewdeerpark

awec wrote: »

Short term?

Dell and Microsoft have been in Ireland for over 25 years (Dell might be just under 25).

Apple has been here over 30.

Some "short term" to get some jobs, eh?

Here the price...
Apple paid $36m tax on $7.11bn profits at Irish unit



http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727


Is that worth letting slide? Is would call that taking the p**s.

Tarzana

dissed doc wrote: »

I don't think it's a good policy for the government to be basing our economy on potentially alterable tax policies for (predominantly) US multinationals. They will move wherever they get the best deal. If that changes (and it can change) there is too little actual industry to support normal (minimal) services.

This. It's a bit precarious.

Tarzana

awec wrote: »

This "corp tax loopholes cause the average joe to pay more tax" is pretty mythical. Do you think if they closed the loopholes that income tax, PRSI, USC or whatever other tax you pay would be cut at all?

USC maybe.

cabledude

If the EU (German's and Austrian's) want us to give up our tax regime they should be told to fu5k right off.

Slash rates to 6.25% to really pi55 them off.

Tail Docker

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here the price...
Apple paid $36m tax on $7.11bn profits at Irish unit



http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-paid-36m-tax-on-7-11bn-profits-at-irish-unit-1.1715727


Is that worth letting slide? Is would call that taking the p**s.

Obama agrees. And when Obama asks, Obama receives. This could/will change - watch this space.

Tarzana wrote: »

This. It's a bit precarious.

It's the same as basing any investment on a Tax-break, it's always precarious unless the business makes sense with or without the break. Breaks end at the stroke of a pen. Our tax status is a brief phase in our history. Phases pass..

andrewdeerpark

This is a global problem, some here just want an anti-EU rant without any attempt at a valid argument or questioning the morality of wholesale global corporation tax evasion denying Trillions in revenue to ALL governments.

No point engaging with such individuals, best left in their ignorance.

Iwasfrozen

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

This is a global problem, some here just want an anti-EU rant without any attempt at a valid argument or questioning the morality of wholesale global corporation tax evasion denying Trillions in revenue to ALL governments.

No point engaging with such individuals, best left in their ignorance.

Why is this exactly a bad thing? You're basically complaining that trillions (a dubious claim but I'll run with it) are staying in the economy and circling around rather than being absorbed by the government to disappear down the dark hole of inefficient services (hello Dublin Bus) and interest on our bank debts.

sock puppet

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

This is a global problem, some here just want an anti-EU rant without any attempt at a valid argument or questioning the morality of wholesale global corporation tax evasion denying Trillions in revenue to ALL governments.

No point engaging with such individuals, best left in their ignorance.

Yeah they EU are clearly in the right here.

I mean, when an Irish politician introduces tax breaks to incentivise companies to invest, they should be investigated. When a politician from Luxembourg introduces much more aggressive tax breaks, they should be made president of the European Commision. Such fairness and impartiality from the EU is to be lauded.

andrewdeerpark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why is this exactly a bad thing? You're basically complaining that trillions (a dubious claim but I'll run with it) are staying in the economy and circling around rather than being absorbed by the government to disappear down the dark hole of inefficient services (hello Dublin Bus) and interest on our bank debts.

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

Tail Docker

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Apple has approx $140Billion US in cash just sitting their as of last year (it has grown since). Is that effective use of money?

Would some of that not be better invested in schools, health, transport and infrastructure? Not all TAX is bad we need taxation for our services unless you want to privatize and put a price on everything (a different argument outside this topic).

I accept some public service inefficiencies however private sector has issues just look are American healthcare and the mess that is in..

Cash stockpiling is currently one of the greatest global problems we face. It is concentrating liquidity into the hands of a tiny few, to the detriment of the many. Piketty has a view on it. The old quote that money is like manure, pile it up and it stinks, spread it around and it causes growth, is very apt.