Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

jimmy180sx · 10-06-2014 11:06PM

Yesterday i heard a popular drive time radio show report on how there could be discrepancies on wheter these children were buried in a septic tank or wheter it was a water tank.....does it really matter, what happened here was unbelievable, religeous order or not. Near 800 children buried in a plot smaller that a ground floor apartment garden with little or no identification as to who might be buried there.

Czarcasm · 10-06-2014 11:10PM

ElizaT33 wrote: »

I'm amazed at some people's attitude on this thread - they are so obviously people who have no connection with the atrocities that occurred!

I have a relative who was put in one of these homes decades ago (an unmarried mother) - she got 'lucky' after a few years 'inside' when a distant uncle had to return from America and PAY the Nuns for her release, and her son's release!!?! Her own family could do nothing for her.

She now lives in a small town and rarely leaves the small house she lives in with her son, he rarely leaves it too (an adult now) - they are entirely scarred for life as a result of what happened to them (and speak not of it).

These days in Ireland, you are 'paid' to be an unmarried mother - you receive a house, pram, benefits etc. What a turnaround ......! Perhaps these benefits are the result of huge embarrassment on the Government's part for the discovery of these atrocities ...! SHAME on the Staff of the Churches of Ireland !

And that is exactly the same sort of attitudes in society towards unmarried mothers that led to your relatives being shunned by society back then.

They were as wrong, uncaring, as incapable of empathy and understanding, as you are today.

mrsbyrne · 10-06-2014 11:13PM

I'm very pleased to hear about the innvestgation. I hope it is very rigorous and thorough and when the report is published everybody will take on board all its findings,whether those findings fit in with their agenda or not.
I don't expect their to be any great shocks either.

My name is URL · 10-06-2014 11:15PM

Anyone watching Prime Time? It explicitly says that this and other governments have known about this stuff but have continuously refused to acknowledge or investigate it. These people are very much still alive and active. What are the odds that they'll be held to account for shielding others that came before them?

mrsbyrne · 10-06-2014 11:18PM

Hermy wrote: »

When will it be convenient for me to know who my birth mother is?

I'm sorry for my ignorance but correct me if I'm wrong.
Is it the case that you can access your birth mothers details if she has given her permission, but you can't if she hasn't?
Also does it work the same the other way? I mean, could she have found you if she wanted to, but only if you'd given permission?

Hermy · 10-06-2014 11:44PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I'm sorry for my ignorance but correct me if I'm wrong.
Is it the case that you can access your birth mothers details if she has given her permission, but you can't if she hasn't?
Also does it work the same the other way? I mean, could she have found you if she wanted to, but only if you'd given permission?

I haven't engaged with the any of those she might have given permission to so I really don't know. I see no reason why I should be denied full and open access to my past and as long as that remains the case I won't be dealing with any such agencies. I can only hope that the statutory Commission of Investigation that's been promised will go some way towards ending this draconian practice.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 10-06-2014 11:53PM

Muise... wrote: »

In this case, the devil is not in the detail, but in the events themselves. A "more balanced account" still has to deal with the barbaric treatment of these children in life and death.

The NY Times article that I posted strikes the right balance in that regard.

Muise... wrote: »

And "amateur", "hobby campaign" - really? Do you think you can patronise this issue, and those decent people who brought it to light, out of public consciousness or something?

Well, yes, although I don't see what "patronise" means in this context. If three campaign committee members give utterly incompatable figures for the cost of the memorial that they are fundraising for, it suggests an amateur campaign that accidently attracted more notice than the backers anticipated.

There's nobody in immediate peril, such as would justify the hyperbole. Like, is it OK if I say "I have conclusive proof that Enda Kenny is one of the Lizard People", just to get attention for some fund-raising campaign - however beneficial?

The issue has some historical interest. I suppose we can contrast the experience of Irish women today, who journey to England to obtain abortions, with the practice up to the early 60s.

I expect there's a theoretical discussion that could be had over whether it's better to farm out, by whatever means, the three-quarters of these unplanned births that survived, or whether general abortion would have been a better solution. But I'm not sure I see the practical relevance of that to today's agenda.

And, at the back of it all, it's not as if the high mortality rate was a secret. It was openly debated on the floor of our national parliament at the time. This isn't something that was hidden. It's just something that we've forgotten, but was out there in plain view.

mrsbyrne · 10-06-2014 11:56PM

Hermy wrote: »

I haven't engaged with the any of those she might have given permission to so I really don't know. I see no reason why I should be denied full and open access to my past and as long as that remains the case I won't be dealing with any such agencies. I can only hope that the statutory Commission of Investigation that's been promised will go some way towards ending this draconian practice.

It seems a basic human right to me that you should be able to have a copy of your birth certificate. Even from a procedural point of view it must be a nightmare, applying for a passport, applying for almost anything, apart ever from the human side, who WS my mother, how old was she, where was she from, was she single or married to my dad, do I have brothers and sisters. I can't imagine.
Mind you, I still don't know what the story is if a person goes to the Adoption Board or whatever it is about permission.

Muise... · 11-06-2014 12:07AM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The NY Times article that I posted strikes the right balance in that regard. Well, yes, although I don't see what "patronise" means in this context. If three campaign committee members give utterly incompatable figures for the cost of the memorial that they are fundraising for, it suggests an amateur campaign that accidently attracted more notice than the backers anticipated.

Oh I see, the septic tank was journalists misrepresenting the facts, but discrepancies in the proposed costs of the memorial were clearly the committee's fault?

I think you were extremely patronising to call the research done by Catherine Corless "amateur" and a "hobby", as if using her skills as a historian to account for and remember these children properly was on a par with flower-arranging.

Hermy · 11-06-2014 12:15AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

...Even from a procedural point of view it must be a nightmare...

I have no family medical history.

Mind you, I still don't know what the story is if a person goes to the Adoption Board or whatever it is about permission.

You join a long queue to see a social worker. Thankfully I was able to do my own trace and now it's just a matter of making contact when I'm ready.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 11-06-2014 01:58AM

Muise... wrote: »

Oh I see, the septic tank was journalists misrepresenting the facts, but discrepancies in the proposed costs of the memorial were clearly the committee's fault?

You are addressing some statement that I haven't made. I frankly don't see any point at issue.

Muise... wrote: »

I think you were extremely patronising to call the research done by Catherine Corless "amateur" and a "hobby", as if using her skills as a historian to account for and remember these children properly was on a par with flower-arranging.

But she is an amateur, isn't she? She's not a professional historian, making a living out of it. And the Old Tuam Society, that she seems associated with, is similarly an amateur group, isn't it?

mrsbyrne · 11-06-2014 07:59AM

Hermy wrote: »

I have no family medical history.

You join a long queue to see a social worker. Thankfully I was able to do my own trace and now it's just a matter of making contact when I'm ready.

I see. Thanks for filling me in about the social worker. I wondered how that worked. My paternal medical history involves a terrible catalogue of chronic heart trouble and my GP proceeds with me with this in mind.
Its disgrace full that your life can be put at risk by being refused this information.

bumper234 · 11-06-2014 08:07AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I'm very pleased to hear about the innvestgation. I hope it is very rigorous and thorough and when the report is published everybody will take on board all its findings,whether those findings fit in with their agenda or not.
I don't expect their to be any great shocks either.

Does this include you?

Birroc · 11-06-2014 09:44AM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

You are addressing some statement that I haven't made. I frankly don't see any point at issue. But she is an amateur, isn't she? She's not a professional historian, making a living out of it. And the Old Tuam Society, that she seems associated with, is similarly an amateur group, isn't it?

Amateur yes but she also spent €3000+ getting death certs for each of the 800 babies and she cross-referenced that list with graveyard records. She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?

Czarcasm · 11-06-2014 10:18AM

Birroc wrote: »

Amateur yes but she also spent €3000+ getting death certs for each of the 800 babies and she cross-referenced that list with graveyard records. She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?

This is the problem with media spin. The numbers are becoming astronomical at this stage, and information is being twisted and pulled out of context for all sorts of self-serving reasons by people with vested interests in "getting one over on" other people. This is only ONE facility, of many that were dotted around the country, and if we don't start checking our facts here, and our sources, then we're of course going to be led by sensationalist clap-trap and misinformation like what's posted in the above post.

The Star newspaper the other day led with the headline that there could be as many as 7,000 bodies dumped (around the country, once you read the article, and even that is only sensationalist guesswork!).

I read the Independent newspaper yesterday and the accounts of the way children were treated like nothing more than lab rats for a company that wanted to develop vaccines; throughout history there have been accounts of how the most vulnerable in society were used to test vaccines - look at how the vaccine for smallpox was developed!

It all makes for gory reading enough without the need for sensationalism and "sexying up" the accounts of what happened in these facilities. That's the quickest way to have people lose interest - when you start peddling lies, misinformation, and exaggeration as "the truth".

I don't think an investigation or a report or any of the rest of it will do any good at this stage. It won't bring these children back, and political and church leaders and anyone over 30 years of age have known about these places for decades. Catherine Corless didn't introduce anything new into the public domain that wasn't well known about already, and if you didn't know about it, well then you clearly weren't paying attention in history class in school.

It's fairly telling when someone has to exaggerate and dramatise a story to make it interesting enough for the media to engage with, but the media are only giving the public what they want to hear, and it's very hard to discuss the facts when it means we may have to examine our own attitudes, perceptions and prejudices, that are still as prevalent today as they have been throughout history.

snaphook · 11-06-2014 10:19AM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

You are addressing some statement that I haven't made. I frankly don't see any point at issue. But she is an amateur, isn't she? She's not a professional historian, making a living out of it. And the Old Tuam Society, that she seems associated with, is similarly an amateur group, isn't it?

Is the implication here that because she is an amateur that her research is without merit and inherently flawed?

I would think, historically, that any Professional Historian or Faculty would realise that their reputations could be damaged if they chose to conduct research and investigate allegations into the Church. The fallout would not be worth it. Future funding could be compromised etc etc.

In this case it took an amateur with nothing to lose.

David versus Goliath etc.

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 10:21AM

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this ?

Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

Why is minister for environment not speaking about this ? Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 10:24AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Does anyone know what the latest at the site is? Has it been secured?

burial ground has small gate and walls around it, and grass is being cut. Police should tape it off with white and blue tape and mark it crime scene.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 11-06-2014 10:33AM

Birroc wrote: »

She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?

snaphook wrote: »

Is the implication here that because she is an amateur that her research is without merit and inherently flawed?

I think the matter is succinctly described in the NY Times article I linked earlier. That article is a good example of what professional writing should be

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/tuam-ireland-796-irish-children-died-historian-searches-for-burial-records.html?_r=0

Where and how the bodies of the children were actually disposed of remains a mystery — and a scandal in tiny Tuam, population 8,200, that has for the moment revealed more about the ways local lore and small-town sleuthing can be distorted in the news media juggernaut than about what actually went on decades ago at the state-funded home for unmarried pregnant women run by the Bon Secours Sisters, a Roman Catholic order.

The claims have provoked calls for a long-overdue independent inquiry — which the government has so far resisted — and revived memories of the many abuses that commonly took place in such homes.<...>

I'd feel the article is a good stock-take on where we actually are now. Including

<...> “We didn’t want to bring any attention to those little babies,” said Anne Collins, a member of the committee that has tried to raise money for a plaque at the site. “But if you buried your dog in the back garden, you would want it marked, and that’s all we wanted.”

Ms. Collins said the news media and “church bashers” had hijacked the situation, and she disagreed with the widespread condemnation of the nuns.
“All of the locals knew this was a kiddies’ burial ground, but we didn’t realize they weren’t in tiny little graves,” she said. “But people weren’t overly stunned to learn otherwise or even the numbers involved. They knew the poverty; I lost a sister myself when she was just 18 months old. We grew up hungry in Ireland, and we are able to understand.”

Another committee member, Maura Ryan, who lives opposite the site, said there was little local appetite for a criminal investigation, particularly if it entailed an excavation. “There will be uproar if they take them up,” Ms. Ryan said. “That’s our biggest fear now since all this started. They should be marked and then left to rest in peace.”

11-06-2014 10:45AM

Elektronske wrote: »

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this ?

Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

Why is minister for environment not speaking about this ? Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

A full inquiry has been announced. What good would it do for the media to interview Nuns? They would edit it to suit their publication and may put a different slant on the words used. I'm NOT excusing anyone involved, but a calm approach is needed. In the modern day, how many babies die in Maternity Hospitals? Multiply that by x number of years and you might be shocked by the answer. NOTHING excuses disrespecting the dead. Some refer to the burial area as a septic tank, a water tank or a burial ground. We can only hope that they were buried with proper respect and decency in consecrated ground.

Spring Onion · 11-06-2014 10:46AM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I think the matter is succinctly described in the NY Times article I linked earlier. That article is a good example of what professional writing should beI'd feel the article is a good stock-take on where we actually are now. Including

Do you ever answer people's questions?

Never mind the NYT - Birroc asked "She has come to the conclusion that those 800 babies are buried in an unmarked grave - do you think she is wrong in that fact?"

Also my old question remains unanswered, did you know your username is an anagram for "ill exuberance, fume god"?

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 10:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

A full inquiry has been announced. What good would it do for the media to interview Nuns? They would edit it to suit their publication and may put a different slant on the words used. I'm NOT excusing anyone involved, but a calm approach is needed. In the modern day, how many babies die in Maternity Hospitals? Multiply that by x number of years and you might be shocked by the answer. NOTHING excuses disrespecting the dead. Some refer to the burial area as a septic tank, a water tank or a burial ground. We can only hope that they were buried with proper respect and decency in consecrated ground.

You have ignored most of my questions :

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this at all ?

Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

Why is minister for environment not speaking about this at all ?

Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

Spring Onion · 11-06-2014 10:49AM

Elektronske wrote: »

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this ?

Email them, it helps with the anger/frustration.

I have never emailed so many politicians as I did in the past week or so!

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 10:50AM

Spring Onion wrote: »

Email them, it helps with the anger/frustration.

I have never emailed so many politicians as I did in the past week or so!

The public deserve to know the answers in public, not private emails, why are these minsters for health and county councils being allowed to hide away ?

Publish your replys

bumper234 · 11-06-2014 10:57AM

Elektronske wrote: »

The public deserve to know the answers in public, not private emails, why are these minsters for health and county councils being allowed to hide away ?

Publish your replys

I have emailed them and i have published the replies i got here on boards. Maybe you should do the same instead of blustering about OTHER peoples lack of action!

Spring Onion · 11-06-2014 10:59AM

Elektronske wrote: »

The public deserve to know the answers in public, not private emails, why are these minsters for health and county councils being allowed to hide away ?

Publish your replys

Thus far the replies were all email acknowledgements from civil servants but the main thrust of my emails were a demand for a full inquiry and a Garda investigation so I am satisfied with latest developments. They see emails as potential votes or non-votes so it does help.

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 11:00AM

bumper234 wrote: »

I have emailed them and i have published the replies i got here on boards. Maybe you should do the same instead of blustering about OTHER peoples lack of action!

I am calling for action in public.
So lets move it from the public media to private emails and sweep it all under the carpet ?
No. Write all the emails you can, this is good.
This should also be done in public, in public media, and the ministers in question, for health and county councils should be answering questions in public, in public media and not getting away with just private emails.

I will not be silenced on these questions :

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this at all ?

Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

Why is minister for environment not speaking about this at all ?

Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

Spring Onion · 11-06-2014 11:03AM

Elektronske wrote: »

I am calling for action in public.
So lets move it from the public media to private emails and sweep it all under the carpet ?
No. Write all the emails you can, this is good.
This should also be done in public, in public media, and the ministers in question, for health and county councils should be answering questions in public, in public media and not getting away with just private emails.

I will not be silenced on these questions :

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this at all ?

Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

Why is minister for environment not speaking about this at all ?

Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

FYI - Vigil tonight at 7pm in Dublin and Galway for the mother and baby homes scandal.

Elektronske · 11-06-2014 11:04AM

Spring Onion wrote: »

Vigil tonight at 7pm in Dublin and Galway for the mother and baby homes scandal.

Good, I will go, will the minsters for health and councils be there and why not ?

bumper234 · 11-06-2014 11:05AM

Elektronske wrote: »

I am calling for action in public.
So lets move it from the public media to private emails and sweep it all under the carpet ?
No. Write all the emails you can, this is good.
This should also be done in public, in public media, and the ministers in question, for health and county councils should be answering questions in public, in public media and not getting away with just private emails.

I will not be silenced on these questions :

Why is Irish prime minster and president not speaking enough about this ?

Why is minister for health not speaking about this at all ?

Why are older nuns not being interviewed by media ?

Why is minister for environment not speaking about this at all ?

Galway county council and other councils funded and administered these homes. Councillors met regularly to discuss homes and funding. Galway county council were given all the homes records in 1961 when it closed. HSE and County Council's have lots of questions to answer as well as nuns.

So why are you asking random strangers on the internet? You want answers and want it in public then go stand outside the Dail with a camera and ask those questions to the TD's as they arrive?

Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

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