Shouting Fore: liability

ForeRight · 29-05-2014 03:47PM #1

I was reading earlier of a woman who was standing on the balcony in old conna when she was hit in the head by a golf ball.

Few days later she had a stroke and says it was due to the impact.

She is suing the other member who hit the ball. He said he didn't see where the ball went.

Fore wasn't called.

Interesting to see how this one ends up.

Rikand · 29-05-2014 03:49PM

Fore wasn't called.

That should be all that is needed imo

ForeRight · 29-05-2014 03:54PM

That's what I'm wondering Rick. If you don't call fore and an accident happens is it written down that you are liable?

wrt40 · 29-05-2014 03:56PM

Are golf rules written into law?

cairny · 29-05-2014 04:03PM

Just governed by ordinary rules of negligence I believe. If you hit a ball offline into an area where there are or could be people and don't shout a warning then this is pretty clearly negligent.

There may be scenarios where there is a defence available. For instance in the case of a sh**k 20 yards right into putting green the golfer wouldn't have time to shout the warning and might not be found liable.

Each case will be slightly different.

ForeRight · 29-05-2014 04:07PM

Why have we never seen a pro sued when they split someone open without a fore shout?

Rikand · 29-05-2014 04:09PM

Buying a ticket to a golf tournie implies you know the risks of walking in front of a golf ball. Therefore no liability

Anatom · 29-05-2014 04:10PM

A very sad case indeed and its hard to know what will happen. There doesn't seem to be any doubt about the cause (i.e. the ball hit her and caused a tangible injury), but the issue of liability with or without a warning is grey at best.

I'm not aware of a case where an individual has successfully been sued as a result of being hit by a ball - warned or not.

We've all been in situations (well, I have) where we have hit a ball - especially, as in this case, out of the rough or from under a tree - and didn't have a clue where it went. Does carelessness mitigate against culpability in that case? I don't know. Does the golf club share any liability here? It appears not as the case is being taken against the golfer himself.

Either way, I'm sure both sides feel dreadful about the whole thing and the outcome - whichever way it goes - won't leave anyone feeling happy...

wrt40 · 29-05-2014 04:10PM

cairny wrote: »

Just governed by ordinary rules of negligence I believe. If you hit a ball offline into an area where there are or could be people and don't shout a warning then this is pretty clearly negligent.

There may be scenarios where there is a defence available. For instance in the case of a sh**k 20 yards right into putting green the golfer wouldn't have time to shout the warning and might not be found liable.

Each case will be slightly different.

Seriously? Wow. So everyone needs to shout fore every time they hit the ball just on case it hits someone? Doesn't sound right to me. She is willingly participating in a dangerous sport with a risk of getting injured by a ball. Is it something to do with being in the club house, or wherever the balcony was?

slingerz · 29-05-2014 04:11PM

Woman hit by golf ball sues after suffering stroke
High Court told Mary Brennan (56) heard no ‘warning’ from player at Bray club

Golfer told the High Court she was standing on the balcony of Old Conna Golf Club, Bray, Co Wicklow, after waving to her husband on the course when, all of a sudden, she thought her head had been ‘split in two’. Photograph: Collins
Golfer told the High Court she was standing on the balcony of Old Conna Golf Club, Bray, Co Wicklow, after waving to her husband on the course when, all of a sudden, she thought her head had been ‘split in two’.

A woman who suffered a stroke days after being hit on the head with a golf ball while standing on the balcony of a golf clubhouse has sued for damages.
Golfer Mary Brennan told the High Court she was standing on the balcony of Old Conna Golf Club, Bray, Co Wicklow, after waving to her husband on the course when, all of a sudden, she thought her head had been “split in two”.
“That is what it felt like. Nobody shouted fore. I did not hear a warning,” she said.
Ms Brennan (56), The Park, Cabinteely, has sued Patrick Trundle, a fellow member of Old Conna Golf Club, as a result of being struck on the right top part of her head with a golf ball in April 2009. Mrs Brennan, with a golf handicap of 28, had three weeks earlier become a full member of the club.
She claims Mr Trundle should have called a warning such as “fore” when hitting a ball from the rough. “If I had heard a warning I would have put my hands over my head and ducked to the ground,” she told Mr Justice Michael Peart.
“I opened my eyes to look at my husband, Philip, and I could not see him. I thought I was blind.”
She was taken to St Vincent’s Hospital where a scan came back normal, she said. She went home but felt the inside of her head “wanted to burst”. She started vomiting eight days later and had double vision and headaches, she said. She was admitted to St Vincent’s Hospital and was told she had had a stroke.
“I was absolutely shocked to hear it. I have headaches to this day. I am never totally without a headache,” she said.
Prior to the incident, she said life was wonderful and she was looking forward to holidays abroad playing golf with her husband as their daughter had grown up. However, they had to cancel a planned Caribbean trip.
“I loved playing golf and the club and the interaction and the social evenings. I tried to play golf four or five tines afterwards but when somebody shouted fore I threw another lady in front of me. I realised my fear was too big,” she added.
Doctors had told her she will have pain for the rest of her life and never drive again, she said. She has to wear special glasses and has a flickering in her eyes and double vision, she added.
“I could not understand why this had happened to me. I thought I was going to enjoy the rest of my life playing golf around the world. I had a To Do List.”
Cross-examined by Colm Condon SC, for Mr Trundle, Mrs Brennan agreed there were photographs of her without her glasses on her husband’s Facebook page while on holiday in Dubai. She said she has to wear glasses all the time but takes them off for photographs.
Brian Murdoch, also a member of the golf club, said he was playing golf with Mr Trundle on April 9th 2009. He said Mr Trundle was a good golfer playing off eight. His ball went into the rough and his first shot was out of bounds.
Mr Murdoch said he did not see the second shot but heard the impact of the club on the ball. The shot ended up on the balcony and there were people shouting because the ball had gone up, he said. It was the norm to call fore to warn people in the vicinity there might be a risk of the ball going in their direction, he added.
The case continues.[QUOTE/]

That was in the IT yesterday http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/woman-hit-by-golf-ball-sues-after-suffering-stroke-1.1812778

cairny · 29-05-2014 04:13PM

I was thinking about this recently. It is a bit different, generally the person who has been struck is standing at edge of fairway or green and is watching the guy who is playing the shot. The should know that a ball is coming in their direction.

Always amazes me when a pro hits it 60 yards offline into the trees that people crowd around and give him a 10 yard gap for his next shot.

But yeah it could happen, might put manners on them if it did.

Admired Lowry for shouting straight away last week when his 3 wood to 18 went right to lose last chance of the win.

wrt40 · 29-05-2014 04:19PM

Based on that article she should be suing the hospital for telling her she was fine and sending her home. Suppose she just wants compo and doesn't care where it comes from. go for the easiest target. Wonder what the punishment is for the poor bloke who hit the ball? This would have serious impact on the game. We'd all have to shout fore no matter what, just in case.

cairny · 29-05-2014 04:28PM

I'm not aware of a case where an individual has successfully been sued as a result of being hit by a ball - warned or not.

There have been quite a few I'm afraid. If you google Phee v Gordon it kinda sums up the law on it, Scottish case but much the same would apply here.

Your Home insurance policy might well cover your liability.

blue note · 29-05-2014 04:28PM

Funny seeing this thread and a thread about drinking on the course on the same page!

SnowDrifts · 29-05-2014 04:29PM

wrt40 wrote: »

Based on that article she should be suing the hospital for telling her she was fine and sending her home. Suppose she just wants compo and doesn't care where it comes from. go for the easiest target. Wonder what the punishment is for the poor bloke who hit the ball? This would have serious impact on the game. We'd all have to shout fore no matter what, just in case.

I think you are missing the point. No one is suggesting people should shout fore when there is no need.

However.. if you hit a ball towards people, you shout. If you hit a ball towards a balcony full of people.. you shout. It's fairly simple.

cairny · 29-05-2014 04:31PM

wrt40 wrote: »

Based on that article she should be suing the hospital for telling her she was fine and sending her home. Suppose she just wants compo and doesn't care where it comes from. go for the easiest target. Wonder what the punishment is for the poor bloke who hit the ball? This would have serious impact on the game. We'd all have to shout fore no matter what, just in case.

The "punishment" is money, she's suing him.

It will have no impact on the game imho.

ForeRight · 29-05-2014 04:35PM

Rikand wrote: »

Buying a ticket to a golf tournie implies you know the risks of walking in front of a golf ball. Therefore no liability

Where does buying a ticket imply that though?

I've never seen anything on my Irish open tickets that implies if I get a fractured skull from a ball that goes into the crowd it's tough cookies on me?

It's a very vague area.

wrt40 · 29-05-2014 04:38PM

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. No one is suggesting people should shout fore when there is no need.

However.. if you hit a ball towards people, you shout. If you hit a ball towards a balcony full of people.. you shout. It's fairly simple.

I think you're confusing golf etiquette and law. It's either going to be a crime to hit someone with a golf ball playing golf or not.

SnowDrifts · 29-05-2014 04:39PM

ForeRight wrote: »

Where does buying a ticket imply that though?

I've never seen anything on my Irish open tickets that implies if I get a fractured skull from a ball that goes into the crowd it's tough cookies on me?

It's a very vague area.

The liability warning is on the back of the ticket. Taking a case against the player/course would be very difficult but not unheard of.

cairny · 29-05-2014 04:40PM

ForeRight wrote: »

Where does buying a ticket imply that though?

I've never seen anything on my Irish open tickets that implies if I get a fractured skull from a ball that goes into the crowd it's tough cookies on me?

It's a very vague area.

It doesn't, there's no such indemnity / immunity. Each case depends on it's merits, if you're on edge of green and get struck then very weak case I'd say, if you're buying a burger in concession area and no shout then much stronger case.

It's not really any vaguer than any other area of litigation, just a bit rarer.

saintastic · 29-05-2014 04:41PM

I did a bit of research on this before and these were some of the things that I found out:

- If you are on the golf course, you are accepting the risk of getting hit with a golf ball. If someone hits a ball at you, they shout fore and you get hit, then there is no liability on the person who hit the ball. This would also be applicable to workers on the golf course.

- If you hit a ball at somebody and they are in an area of risk i.e. middle of the fairway, walking down the path at the side of the hole that you are driving on or standing on the green that you hit to and you don't shout fore, you are liable due to negligence.

- If you hit a ball way off line and you hit someone where it cannot be foreseen that a person would be there (e.g. two fairways over at 6.30am on a Tuesday morning), you most likely won't be liable.

For this case, there could be a suggestion that the golf club could be liable as they haven't put any preventative measures in place to stop an issue like this happening.

SnowDrifts · 29-05-2014 04:42PM

wrt40 wrote: »

I think you're confusing golf etiquette and law. It's either going to be a crime to hit someone with a golf ball playing golf or not.

That's funny that you think I'm confused.

No one is talking about criminality here. Please educated yourself and google "difference between civil law and criminal law".

ForeRight · 29-05-2014 04:44PM

SnowDrifts wrote: »

The liability warning is on the back of the ticket. Taking a case against the player/course would be very difficult but not unheard of.

It may say you enter the course at your own risk but if someone hits a ball 50 yards away from where they are meaning too is it negligence on their part when they do t shout a fore warning?

Not shouting fore is something I find disgusting. One simple word and people just cover their head, no big deal and no major injuries. Easy as that.

I'd nearly bet that the guy that hit the ball in question in this story was so far off line heading towards the clubhouse he just went into a strop over his terrible shot.
Look at the damage he has caused!!!!

I can't imagine what that lady and family have and are still going through over the arrogance of one idiot.

saintastic · 29-05-2014 04:52PM

SnowDrifts wrote: »

The liability warning is on the back of the ticket.

And on the PGA website: http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/tickets/ticketterms.html

Each ticket is a revocable license allowing access to a PGA TOUR golf tournament ("Tournament"). Lost, stolen or damaged tickets are not the responsibility of PGA TOUR, Inc. (“TOUR”) or a Tournament and will not be replaced. By entering onto the grounds of a Tournament: You assume all risk and danger arising out of your attendance including loss of your personal property, or injury from a golf shot or by other spectators or players, and you hereby release TOUR, the host organization, and their affiliates and subsidiaries, the Tournament, the Host Organization, television broadcasters, sponsors, host site, vendors, volunteers, and participating players from any and all liabilities arising out of such losses or injuries.

wrt40 · 29-05-2014 04:58PM

wrt40 wrote: »

Fair enough. I'll also Google condescending twat while I'm at it.

Sorry, FORE! Just in case.

blue note · 29-05-2014 05:00PM

saintastic wrote: »

- If you hit a ball way off line and you hit someone where it cannot be foreseen that a person would be there (e.g. two fairways over at 6.30am on a Tuesday morning), you most likely won't be liable.

This happened to me one morning. I sliced at drive at about 7am in winter onto the 17th hole. I looked through the trees, but couldn't see anyone there and didn't shout. When I got to my ball there was an unimpressed golfer walking onto the green. I apologised (obviously I was in the wrong, should never assume, etc), but he wasn't too happy about it.

Then my playing partner tried to pitch out over some trees back onto the hole we were playing and shanked it across the green the unimpressed golfer was putting on. It scooted by about a yard from him.

I must say it was quite funny.

saintastic · 29-05-2014 05:02PM

ForeRight wrote: »

Not shouting fore is something I find disgusting.

I know you were saying this in relation to the amateur game but the professionals intentionally don't do it to gain a benefit i.e. stopping the ball from bouncing towards the out of bounds. It hits a person, falls into a part of the course with a good lie due to the downtrodden walkway. They are able to hit the ball onto the green and putt for birdie instead of having a 2 shot penalty.

ForeRight · 29-05-2014 05:05PM

saintastic wrote: »

I know you were saying this in relation to the amateur game but the professionals intentionally don't do it to gain a benefit i.e. stopping the ball from bouncing towards the out of bounds. It hits a person, falls into a part of the course with a good lie due to the downtrodden walkway. They are able to hit the ball onto the green and putt for birdie instead of having a 2 shot penalty.

Yep I completely agree. It's shocking really.

Nothing a signed glove can't sort out and clear their conscience though

cairny · 29-05-2014 05:09PM

Each ticket is a revocable license allowing access to a PGA TOUR golf tournament ("Tournament"). Lost, stolen or damaged tickets are not the responsibility of PGA TOUR, Inc. (“TOUR”) or a Tournament and will not be replaced. By entering onto the grounds of a Tournament: You assume all risk and danger arising out of your attendance including loss of your personal property, or injury from a golf shot or by other spectators or players, and you hereby release TOUR, the host organization, and their affiliates and subsidiaries, the Tournament, the Host Organization, television broadcasters, sponsors, host site, vendors, volunteers, and participating players from any and all liabilities arising out of such losses or injuries.[/QUOTE]

May be work in US but not really here.

I think it's called 'voluntary assumption of risk'. Can be permissible in some cases but must involve a communication between the two parties where the plaintiff assured the defendant that they waived right to sue. I'm pretty sure the defendant printing it on a ticket or a website won't fulfill this requirement whereas a signed waiver before you went bungee jumping after the risks were explained to you might.

SnowDrifts · 29-05-2014 05:11PM

ForeRight wrote: »

It may say you enter the course at your own risk but if someone hits a ball 50 yards away from where they are meaning too is it negligence on their part when they do t shout a fore warning?

Not shouting fore is something I find disgusting. One simple word and people just cover their head, no big deal and no major injuries. Easy as that.

I'd nearly bet that the guy that hit the ball in question in this story was so far off line heading towards the clubhouse he just went into a strop over his terrible shot.
Look at the damage he has caused!!!!

I can't imagine what that lady and family have and are still going through over the arrogance of one idiot.

Yeah it's infuriating when people refuse to call fore - be it professionals or amateurs.

The case mentioned above will definitely set an interesting precedent. Any PGA Tour litigation for injury as a result of being struck by a ball I have read about in the US has always been against the tournament organsiers and not the players.

Such cases normally focus on the duty of care a tournament owes to it's spectators. A liability waiver doesn't necessarily mean you can't sue... it just means it will be more difficult!

deBurcaLiam · 29-05-2014 07:01PM

The voluntary assumption of risk doesn't apply in this case as she was a spectator beyond the boundary of the actual playing area, she was sitting on the veranda.

The player in this scenario, had already hit two wayward shots according to ye witness in the IT today, and so he (the defendant) was on notice and was aware that he was out of bounds and did not have a clear sightline if the correct fairway. Incidentally, the plaintiff's husband was also part of the same fourball.

Her claim against the Club would not have succeeded as she was by her own admission, a full member, and Old Conna is a members owned Club, so she can't sue herself (she's a shared owner)

Lesson- if you're ever offered any form of insurance under your golf membership...take it!

Shouting Fore: liability

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