Shouting Fore: liability

ForeRight

I was reading earlier of a woman who was standing on the balcony in old conna when she was hit in the head by a golf ball.

Few days later she had a stroke and says it was due to the impact.

She is suing the other member who hit the ball. He said he didn't see where the ball went.

Fore wasn't called.


Interesting to see how this one ends up.

Rikand

Fore wasn't called.

That should be all that is needed imo

ForeRight

That's what I'm wondering Rick. If you don't call fore and an accident happens is it written down that you are liable?

wrt40

Are golf rules written into law?

cairny

Just governed by ordinary rules of negligence I believe. If you hit a ball offline into an area where there are or could be people and don't shout a warning then this is pretty clearly negligent.

There may be scenarios where there is a defence available. For instance in the case of a sh**k 20 yards right into putting green the golfer wouldn't have time to shout the warning and might not be found liable.

Each case will be slightly different.

ForeRight

Why have we never seen a pro sued when they split someone open without a fore shout?

Rikand

Buying a ticket to a golf tournie implies you know the risks of walking in front of a golf ball. Therefore no liability

Anatom

A very sad case indeed and its hard to know what will happen. There doesn't seem to be any doubt about the cause (i.e. the ball hit her and caused a tangible injury), but the issue of liability with or without a warning is grey at best.

I'm not aware of a case where an individual has successfully been sued as a result of being hit by a ball - warned or not.

We've all been in situations (well, I have) where we have hit a ball - especially, as in this case, out of the rough or from under a tree - and didn't have a clue where it went. Does carelessness mitigate against culpability in that case? I don't know. Does the golf club share any liability here? It appears not as the case is being taken against the golfer himself.

Either way, I'm sure both sides feel dreadful about the whole thing and the outcome - whichever way it goes - won't leave anyone feeling happy...

wrt40

cairny wrote: »

Just governed by ordinary rules of negligence I believe. If you hit a ball offline into an area where there are or could be people and don't shout a warning then this is pretty clearly negligent.

There may be scenarios where there is a defence available. For instance in the case of a sh**k 20 yards right into putting green the golfer wouldn't have time to shout the warning and might not be found liable.

Each case will be slightly different.

Seriously? Wow. So everyone needs to shout fore every time they hit the ball just on case it hits someone? Doesn't sound right to me. She is willingly participating in a dangerous sport with a risk of getting injured by a ball. Is it something to do with being in the club house, or wherever the balcony was?

slingerz

Woman hit by golf ball sues after suffering stroke
High Court told Mary Brennan (56) heard no ‘warning’ from player at Bray club

Golfer told the High Court she was standing on the balcony of Old Conna Golf Club, Bray, Co Wicklow, after waving to her husband on the course when, all of a sudden, she thought her head had been ‘split in two’. Photograph: Collins
Golfer told the High Court she was standing on the balcony of Old Conna Golf Club, Bray, Co Wicklow, after waving to her husband on the course when, all of a sudden, she thought her head had been ‘split in two’.

A woman who suffered a stroke days after being hit on the head with a golf ball while standing on the balcony of a golf clubhouse has sued for damages.
Golfer Mary Brennan told the High Court she was standing on the balcony of Old Conna Golf Club, Bray, Co Wicklow, after waving to her husband on the course when, all of a sudden, she thought her head had been “split in two”.
“That is what it felt like. Nobody shouted fore. I did not hear a warning,” she said.
Ms Brennan (56), The Park, Cabinteely, has sued Patrick Trundle, a fellow member of Old Conna Golf Club, as a result of being struck on the right top part of her head with a golf ball in April 2009. Mrs Brennan, with a golf handicap of 28, had three weeks earlier become a full member of the club.
She claims Mr Trundle should have called a warning such as “fore” when hitting a ball from the rough. “If I had heard a warning I would have put my hands over my head and ducked to the ground,” she told Mr Justice Michael Peart.
“I opened my eyes to look at my husband, Philip, and I could not see him. I thought I was blind.”
She was taken to St Vincent’s Hospital where a scan came back normal, she said. She went home but felt the inside of her head “wanted to burst”. She started vomiting eight days later and had double vision and headaches, she said. She was admitted to St Vincent’s Hospital and was told she had had a stroke.
“I was absolutely shocked to hear it. I have headaches to this day. I am never totally without a headache,” she said.
Prior to the incident, she said life was wonderful and she was looking forward to holidays abroad playing golf with her husband as their daughter had grown up. However, they had to cancel a planned Caribbean trip.
“I loved playing golf and the club and the interaction and the social evenings. I tried to play golf four or five tines afterwards but when somebody shouted fore I threw another lady in front of me. I realised my fear was too big,” she added.
Doctors had told her she will have pain for the rest of her life and never drive again, she said. She has to wear special glasses and has a flickering in her eyes and double vision, she added.
“I could not understand why this had happened to me. I thought I was going to enjoy the rest of my life playing golf around the world. I had a To Do List.”
Cross-examined by Colm Condon SC, for Mr Trundle, Mrs Brennan agreed there were photographs of her without her glasses on her husband’s Facebook page while on holiday in Dubai. She said she has to wear glasses all the time but takes them off for photographs.
Brian Murdoch, also a member of the golf club, said he was playing golf with Mr Trundle on April 9th 2009. He said Mr Trundle was a good golfer playing off eight. His ball went into the rough and his first shot was out of bounds.
Mr Murdoch said he did not see the second shot but heard the impact of the club on the ball. The shot ended up on the balcony and there were people shouting because the ball had gone up, he said. It was the norm to call fore to warn people in the vicinity there might be a risk of the ball going in their direction, he added.
The case continues.[QUOTE/]

That was in the IT yesterday http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/woman-hit-by-golf-ball-sues-after-suffering-stroke-1.1812778

cairny

I was thinking about this recently. It is a bit different, generally the person who has been struck is standing at edge of fairway or green and is watching the guy who is playing the shot. The should know that a ball is coming in their direction.

Always amazes me when a pro hits it 60 yards offline into the trees that people crowd around and give him a 10 yard gap for his next shot.

But yeah it could happen, might put manners on them if it did.

Admired Lowry for shouting straight away last week when his 3 wood to 18 went right to lose last chance of the win.

wrt40

Based on that article she should be suing the hospital for telling her she was fine and sending her home. Suppose she just wants compo and doesn't care where it comes from. go for the easiest target. Wonder what the punishment is for the poor bloke who hit the ball? This would have serious impact on the game. We'd all have to shout fore no matter what, just in case.

cairny

I'm not aware of a case where an individual has successfully been sued as a result of being hit by a ball - warned or not.

There have been quite a few I'm afraid. If you google Phee v Gordon it kinda sums up the law on it, Scottish case but much the same would apply here.

Your Home insurance policy might well cover your liability.

blue note

Funny seeing this thread and a thread about drinking on the course on the same page!

SnowDrifts

wrt40 wrote: »

Based on that article she should be suing the hospital for telling her she was fine and sending her home. Suppose she just wants compo and doesn't care where it comes from. go for the easiest target. Wonder what the punishment is for the poor bloke who hit the ball? This would have serious impact on the game. We'd all have to shout fore no matter what, just in case.

I think you are missing the point. No one is suggesting people should shout fore when there is no need.

However.. if you hit a ball towards people, you shout. If you hit a ball towards a balcony full of people.. you shout. It's fairly simple.

cairny

wrt40 wrote: »

Based on that article she should be suing the hospital for telling her she was fine and sending her home. Suppose she just wants compo and doesn't care where it comes from. go for the easiest target. Wonder what the punishment is for the poor bloke who hit the ball? This would have serious impact on the game. We'd all have to shout fore no matter what, just in case.

The "punishment" is money, she's suing him.

It will have no impact on the game imho.

ForeRight

Rikand wrote: »

Buying a ticket to a golf tournie implies you know the risks of walking in front of a golf ball. Therefore no liability

Where does buying a ticket imply that though?

I've never seen anything on my Irish open tickets that implies if I get a fractured skull from a ball that goes into the crowd it's tough cookies on me?

It's a very vague area.

wrt40

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. No one is suggesting people should shout fore when there is no need.

However.. if you hit a ball towards people, you shout. If you hit a ball towards a balcony full of people.. you shout. It's fairly simple.

I think you're confusing golf etiquette and law. It's either going to be a crime to hit someone with a golf ball playing golf or not.

SnowDrifts

ForeRight wrote: »

Where does buying a ticket imply that though?

I've never seen anything on my Irish open tickets that implies if I get a fractured skull from a ball that goes into the crowd it's tough cookies on me?

It's a very vague area.

The liability warning is on the back of the ticket. Taking a case against the player/course would be very difficult but not unheard of.

cairny

ForeRight wrote: »

Where does buying a ticket imply that though?

I've never seen anything on my Irish open tickets that implies if I get a fractured skull from a ball that goes into the crowd it's tough cookies on me?

It's a very vague area.

It doesn't, there's no such indemnity / immunity. Each case depends on it's merits, if you're on edge of green and get struck then very weak case I'd say, if you're buying a burger in concession area and no shout then much stronger case.

It's not really any vaguer than any other area of litigation, just a bit rarer.

saintastic

I did a bit of research on this before and these were some of the things that I found out:

- If you are on the golf course, you are accepting the risk of getting hit with a golf ball. If someone hits a ball at you, they shout fore and you get hit, then there is no liability on the person who hit the ball. This would also be applicable to workers on the golf course.

- If you hit a ball at somebody and they are in an area of risk i.e. middle of the fairway, walking down the path at the side of the hole that you are driving on or standing on the green that you hit to and you don't shout fore, you are liable due to negligence.

- If you hit a ball way off line and you hit someone where it cannot be foreseen that a person would be there (e.g. two fairways over at 6.30am on a Tuesday morning), you most likely won't be liable.

For this case, there could be a suggestion that the golf club could be liable as they haven't put any preventative measures in place to stop an issue like this happening.

SnowDrifts

wrt40 wrote: »

I think you're confusing golf etiquette and law. It's either going to be a crime to hit someone with a golf ball playing golf or not.

That's funny that you think I'm confused. No one is talking about criminality here. Please educated yourself and google "difference between civil law and criminal law".

ForeRight

SnowDrifts wrote: »

The liability warning is on the back of the ticket. Taking a case against the player/course would be very difficult but not unheard of.

It may say you enter the course at your own risk but if someone hits a ball 50 yards away from where they are meaning too is it negligence on their part when they do t shout a fore warning?


Not shouting fore is something I find disgusting. One simple word and people just cover their head, no big deal and no major injuries. Easy as that.

I'd nearly bet that the guy that hit the ball in question in this story was so far off line heading towards the clubhouse he just went into a strop over his terrible shot.
Look at the damage he has caused!!!!


I can't imagine what that lady and family have and are still going through over the arrogance of one idiot.

saintastic

SnowDrifts wrote: »

The liability warning is on the back of the ticket.

And on the PGA website: http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/tickets/ticketterms.html

Each ticket is a revocable license allowing access to a PGA TOUR golf tournament ("Tournament"). Lost, stolen or damaged tickets are not the responsibility of PGA TOUR, Inc. (“TOUR”) or a Tournament and will not be replaced. By entering onto the grounds of a Tournament: You assume all risk and danger arising out of your attendance including loss of your personal property, or injury from a golf shot or by other spectators or players, and you hereby release TOUR, the host organization, and their affiliates and subsidiaries, the Tournament, the Host Organization, television broadcasters, sponsors, host site, vendors, volunteers, and participating players from any and all liabilities arising out of such losses or injuries.

wrt40

wrt40 wrote: »

Fair enough. I'll also Google condescending twat while I'm at it.

Sorry, FORE! Just in case.

blue note

saintastic wrote: »

- If you hit a ball way off line and you hit someone where it cannot be foreseen that a person would be there (e.g. two fairways over at 6.30am on a Tuesday morning), you most likely won't be liable.

This happened to me one morning. I sliced at drive at about 7am in winter onto the 17th hole. I looked through the trees, but couldn't see anyone there and didn't shout. When I got to my ball there was an unimpressed golfer walking onto the green. I apologised (obviously I was in the wrong, should never assume, etc), but he wasn't too happy about it.

Then my playing partner tried to pitch out over some trees back onto the hole we were playing and shanked it across the green the unimpressed golfer was putting on. It scooted by about a yard from him.

I must say it was quite funny.

saintastic

ForeRight wrote: »

Not shouting fore is something I find disgusting.

I know you were saying this in relation to the amateur game but the professionals intentionally don't do it to gain a benefit i.e. stopping the ball from bouncing towards the out of bounds. It hits a person, falls into a part of the course with a good lie due to the downtrodden walkway. They are able to hit the ball onto the green and putt for birdie instead of having a 2 shot penalty.

ForeRight

saintastic wrote: »

I know you were saying this in relation to the amateur game but the professionals intentionally don't do it to gain a benefit i.e. stopping the ball from bouncing towards the out of bounds. It hits a person, falls into a part of the course with a good lie due to the downtrodden walkway. They are able to hit the ball onto the green and putt for birdie instead of having a 2 shot penalty.

Yep I completely agree. It's shocking really.

Nothing a signed glove can't sort out and clear their conscience though

cairny

Each ticket is a revocable license allowing access to a PGA TOUR golf tournament ("Tournament"). Lost, stolen or damaged tickets are not the responsibility of PGA TOUR, Inc. (“TOUR”) or a Tournament and will not be replaced. By entering onto the grounds of a Tournament: You assume all risk and danger arising out of your attendance including loss of your personal property, or injury from a golf shot or by other spectators or players, and you hereby release TOUR, the host organization, and their affiliates and subsidiaries, the Tournament, the Host Organization, television broadcasters, sponsors, host site, vendors, volunteers, and participating players from any and all liabilities arising out of such losses or injuries.[/QUOTE]

May be work in US but not really here.

I think it's called 'voluntary assumption of risk'. Can be permissible in some cases but must involve a communication between the two parties where the plaintiff assured the defendant that they waived right to sue. I'm pretty sure the defendant printing it on a ticket or a website won't fulfill this requirement whereas a signed waiver before you went bungee jumping after the risks were explained to you might.

SnowDrifts

ForeRight wrote: »

It may say you enter the course at your own risk but if someone hits a ball 50 yards away from where they are meaning too is it negligence on their part when they do t shout a fore warning?


Not shouting fore is something I find disgusting. One simple word and people just cover their head, no big deal and no major injuries. Easy as that.

I'd nearly bet that the guy that hit the ball in question in this story was so far off line heading towards the clubhouse he just went into a strop over his terrible shot.
Look at the damage he has caused!!!!


I can't imagine what that lady and family have and are still going through over the arrogance of one idiot.

Yeah it's infuriating when people refuse to call fore - be it professionals or amateurs.

The case mentioned above will definitely set an interesting precedent. Any PGA Tour litigation for injury as a result of being struck by a ball I have read about in the US has always been against the tournament organsiers and not the players.

Such cases normally focus on the duty of care a tournament owes to it's spectators. A liability waiver doesn't necessarily mean you can't sue... it just means it will be more difficult!

deBurcaLiam

The voluntary assumption of risk doesn't apply in this case as she was a spectator beyond the boundary of the actual playing area, she was sitting on the veranda.

The player in this scenario, had already hit two wayward shots according to ye witness in the IT today, and so he (the defendant) was on notice and was aware that he was out of bounds and did not have a clear sightline if the correct fairway. Incidentally, the plaintiff's husband was also part of the same fourball.

Her claim against the Club would not have succeeded as she was by her own admission, a full member, and Old Conna is a members owned Club, so she can't sue herself (she's a shared owner)

Lesson- if you're ever offered any form of insurance under your golf membership...take it!

Tommo 76

I think shouting fore for all pros should be compulsory, 1-2 shot penalty for a no call.

I'm just wondering, the fact the lady was on the balcony, I don't know the layout but would shouting fore have changed the outcome. Don't get me wrong I'm not taking the golfers side but I'm not sure I think the golfer should be liable, if it happened on the course maybe but the fact this lady was on a balcony, surely this falls under the remit of the clubhouse or buildings, which would imply that this insurance would be liable ie the balcony should be safe from any possible accidents. I could be totally wrong I'm not familiar with the layout, and am 100% totally behind ALL golfers ( including pros) shouting fore. I mean seeing a Marshall wave a flag or holding it right when you are 300 yards up the fairway won't really alert you, a vocal call will get your attention. I wish this lady best wishes for her recovery and hope it works out okay for everyone, I also cannot imagine what the golfer is feeling, no amateur sets out to intentionally hit someone with a golf ball.

callaway92

There's no way the person who hit the ball could ever be found to be liable really.

So many excuses could be made. I thought of numerous ones instantly some of which sound ridiculous but would surely get away with i.e. I thought I saw it go straight so didn't shout fore.

Wombatman

ANTHONY PHEE v. JAMES GORDON+NIDDRY GOLF CLUB

blindside88

Surely she should be suing the golf club if anyone, as she wasn't on the course itself but in the clubhouse, surely claiming on the public liability insurance would give her the best shot (no pun intended) of a successful claim

callaway92

Wombatman wrote: »

ANTHONY PHEE v. JAMES GORDON+NIDDRY GOLF CLUB

UK Case though. Are their laws for liability on a golf course the exact same?

SnowDrifts

callaway92 wrote: »

UK Case though. Are their laws for liability on a golf course the exact same?

It's Scottish and as such, has no bearing on our common law legal system. England operates a common law system the same as our own.

Dtoffee

So basically... as I understand it:

Mrs Brennan, with a golf handicap of 28, had three weeks earlier become a full member of the club.

“I loved playing golf and the club and the interaction and the social evenings. I tried to play golf four or five times afterwards but when somebody shouted fore I threw another lady in front of me. I realised my fear was too big,” she added.

They had to cancel a planned Caribbean trip.

I thought I was going to enjoy the rest of my life playing golf around the world. Mrs Brennan agreed there were photographs of her without her glasses on her husband’s Facebook page while on holiday in Dubai. She said she has to wear glasses all the time but takes them off for photographs.

Shes 3 weeks a member / gets hit by a golf ball / throws a playing partner in front of her / had her Caribbean holiday cancelled but flies off to Dubai and she has to wear glasses 'all' the time except when posing for facebook photos .... don't you just love facebook, I have a feeling this case is going to get VERY interesting. :rolleyes:

callaway92

SnowDrifts wrote: »

It's Scottish and as such, has no bearing on our common law legal system. England operates a common law system the same as our own.

Cool, thought as much.

deBurcaLiam

The Gordon case is a good example, and I wouldn't be surprised if that Opinion gets a mention at some stage.

A casual online search would indicate that the plaintiff (Mrs. Brennan) did actually return to golf after this accident, and in fact she has played at Old Conna since.

The crux of this specific case is that the defendant (Mr.Trundle) was attempting to correct an already bad shot, and was playing the ball from the rough on the first fairway, back out over the parting trees, onto the top of the eighteenth fairway,

Both holes are parallel, one running away from the club (the 1st) and one running towards the club (the 18th).

The veranda was in his sightline, and he was presumably aware that there were spectators sitting out. The ball was travelling in the direction of the veranda, and he failed to shout fore or give any reasonable warning.

If there were any arguments put forward that he didn't know or didn't see where the ball had gone, then he still should have shouted fore as a precaution.

Judge Peart is hearing this case, it'll be interesting to see what the outcome is.

Dtoffee

Reading Liams post above, it appears that the 18th green is beyond the clubhouse veranda and if thats the case the maybe the club could be exposed to risk as their clubhouse is endangering members with its location. Especially if it could be established that golf balls have landed there before, I can't think of too many places where the veranda or viewing area is actually putting members at risk.

Sounds like Mrs Brennan's solicitor is hungry and it will be a can of worms if the defence examines preceedent in terms of balls hitting the veranda. Should preceedent be established, it would bring all sorts of issues into play including the architect who designed the clubhouse and what health and safety actions were in place at the time of the incident.

razorblunt

Play golf witha guy regularyly who never shouts fore, it's the most frustrating thing in the world, when he does it's at a barely whisper level. Eejit, I've started shouting for him now which gets his back up but I'm not the one in the wrong.

ForeRight

razorblunt wrote: »

Play golf witha guy regularyly who never shouts fore, it's the most frustrating thing in the world, when he does it's at a barely whisper level. Eejit, I've started shouting for him now which gets his back up but I'm not the one in the wrong.

Have you said anything to him about it?

the_syco

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/woman-hit-by-golf-ball-sues-after-suffering-stroke-1.1812778

She was taken to St Vincent’s Hospital where a scan came back normal, she said. She went home but felt the inside of her head “wanted to burst”. She started vomiting eight days later and had double vision and headaches, she said. She was admitted to St Vincent’s Hospital and was told she had had a stroke.

Did she tell her doctors this?

Dtoffee wrote: »

So basically... as I understand it:

Mrs Brennan, with a golf handicap of 28, had three weeks earlier become a full member of the club.

“I loved playing golf and the club and the interaction and the social evenings. I tried to play golf four or five times afterwards but when somebody shouted fore I threw another lady in front of me. I realised my fear was too big,” she added.

They had to cancel a planned Caribbean trip.

I thought I was going to enjoy the rest of my life playing golf around the world. Mrs Brennan agreed there were photographs of her without her glasses on her husband’s Facebook page while on holiday in Dubai. She said she has to wear glasses all the time but takes them off for photographs.

Shes 3 weeks a member / gets hit by a golf ball / throws a playing partner in front of her / had her Caribbean holiday cancelled but flies off to Dubai and she has to wear glasses 'all' the time except when posing for facebook photos .... don't you just love facebook, I have a feeling this case is going to get VERY interesting. :rolleyes:

Agree totally.

allybhoy

One of my big pet hates on a course is playing with guys who dont shout Fore or a ball landing close to you and not hearing a shout. If im playing with someone i dont know and they dont shout, i always call on their behalf and say it to them afterwards that they should have called it and if a ball comes close to me without a shout ill try and find out who hit it and politely ask them to shout fore in future...its the worst thing you can do on a course. We all hit bad shots so its nothing to be embarrassed about, imagine how "embarrassed" you would feel if you split someones head open.


Unrelated, I dont watch a huge amount of golf on telly apart from the majors and ryder cup, however I was watching Lowry at Wenworth on the 18th on Sunday when he hit a wayward second shot, he shouted Fore and it occurred to me that i dont think ive ever seen a pro on telly call fore before. Ive heard the rumours like most have that some pro's arent too upset when they hit spectators as they think if it hits someone it will be more preferable etc etc but is their any basis or truth to this?

razorblunt

ForeRight wrote: »

Have you said anything to him about it?

Yeah, same spiel every time made worse by his wicked slice. He's often just looking at it peel to the right. You shout "fore" he responds with "it's nowhere near them".

He improves his conduct for a bit but, creeps back to so shouting fore and looking away so the folks on the flight path dont know which direction (we've had to signal the direction of the fore).

He'll be getting the buck up or you're not being included in the groupings anymore speech soon enough.

TRS30

allybhoy wrote: »

Unrelated, I dont watch a huge amount of golf on telly apart from the majors and ryder cup, however I was watching Lowry at Wenworth on the 18th on Sunday when he hit a wayward second shot, he shouted Fore and it occurred to me that i dont think ive ever seen a pro on telly call fore before. Ive heard the rumours like most have that some pro's arent too upset when they hit spectators as they think if it hits someone it will be more preferable etc etc but is their any basis or truth to this?

I have heard some of the Sky pundits say this.

razorblunt

TRS30 wrote: »

I have heard some of the Sky pundits say this.

In defence of the pros, I don't think Sky alluded to them being happy with the hit, just the lack of respect of not doing it.
Ewen Murray makes a point of calling out and praising those that do it, most notably Poulter at Sawgrass.

rrpc

allybhoy wrote: »

Unrelated, I dont watch a huge amount of golf on telly apart from the majors and ryder cup, however I was watching Lowry at Wenworth on the 18th on Sunday when he hit a wayward second shot, he shouted Fore and it occurred to me that i dont think ive ever seen a pro on telly call fore before. Ive heard the rumours like most have that some pro's arent too upset when they hit spectators as they think if it hits someone it will be more preferable etc etc but is their any basis or truth to this?

I've heard McIlroy shout Fore as well, but he does the full 'Fore right' or 'Fore left' and sticks out his club to indicate the direction as well.

A few just stick out the club instead of shouting.

Maybe we should start a blacklist

John Divney

Lowry is a beast when he shouts it, absolutley correct.

I was watching Faldo and Norman on Shell's WWOG from the early 90's, people were closer to fairway and the lads would smash it into the crowd and just mumble to themselves.

unattendedbag

I paid an extra €20 for some sort of Gui insurance when taking out membership this year, presumably to cover incidents of damage and injury I may cause. Not sure if the defendant in this case had the same. I imagined they would have settled out of court if he had.