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The Pro Austerity Crowd

1…457910…26

Comments

  • #182
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Yeah wanting functioning services like Health, Police, Ambulance is living beyond our means.....

    Well said the fact of the matter is that the debt to pay for everyday services will dwarf the bank bailout yet no one wants to say that and the next generation will pay for it just to keep the pensions civil service dole etc going


  • #183
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    live beyond one's means:
    to spend more money than one can afford

    So what's your definition of living beyond your means then?
    I sometimes use debit, but yeah usually. How is that relevant?

    I think you don't understand how things work. We all live beyond our means. If everyone in the economy used cash there would not be an economy. We all use credit in some way or form.
    longhalloween wrote: »
    Obviously he means if you cant afford it. No need to nitpick every post by taking everything at a bare literal level.

    But the real world does not work like that anymore We all use Credit in some way or form directly or indirectly Every country is in Debt


  • #184
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Exactly, this is a form of 'unearned income' and rent-seeking activity, and unearned income is a big part of upwards-redistribution of wealth - which should be clamped down on, so that people are forced to do useful/productive things, in order to earn money.

    It would be intersing to see how big the black market is in Ireland and how that could help pay for things
    I know many a self made business man who are millionaires but they break all the rules in the book it would be intersing to see how much would they have if they played by the rules

    Ireland is a deeply corrupt society and most business men here shouldn't be let near a business and would know how to run a business legally but ireland rewards corruption


  • #185
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I think you don't understand how things work. We all live beyond our means. If everyone in the economy used cash there would not be an economy. We all use credit in some way or form.

    Trust me I understand very well how things work. But borrowing for any other reason than acquiring capital to produce a return is living beyond your means. It's getting money you don't have, to pay for something you can't afford.


  • #186
    longhalloween
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭longhalloween


    el pasco wrote: »
    It would be intersing to see how big the black market is in Ireland and how that could help pay for things
    I know many a self made business man who are millionaires but they break all the rules in the book it would be intersing to see how much would they have if they played by the rules

    Ireland is a deeply corrupt society and most business men here shouldn't be let near a business and would know how to run a business legally but ireland rewards corruption
    Care to share any examples of these corruot businessmen you "know"?


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  • #187
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I think you don't understand how things work. We all live beyond our means. If everyone in the economy used cash there would not be an economy. We all use credit in some way or form.

    But the real world does not work like that anymore We all use Credit in some way or form directly or indirectly Every country is in Debt
    Never thought of that before - that the fact we use debt-based money, means we automatically live beyond our means - it's a good point.


  • #188
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    el pasco wrote: »
    It would be intersing to see how big the black market is in Ireland and how that could help pay for things
    I know many a self made business man who are millionaires but they break all the rules in the book it would be intersing to see how much would they have if they played by the rules

    Ireland is a deeply corrupt society and most business men here shouldn't be let near a business and would know how to run a business legally but ireland rewards corruption
    Indeed - and this rot runs right up through government/banking/finance I'd say; this is what needs to be fixed, in order to properly get us out of crisis, yet we're only making very slow progress as a country, to tackling corruption in general.


  • #189
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    longhalloween wrote: »
    Care to share any examples of these corruot businessmen you "know"?
    He doesn't really have to personally convince you of anything - it's clear you just want to pour doubt.


  • #190
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    The income tax question, kind of ignores the bigger part of the problem though - it's worth putting aside.

    The question was asked in the context of the 'tax the rich' arguement, so let's not put it aside just yet

    There were two other parts to the question when I posted it


  • #191
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    longhalloween wrote: »
    Care to share any examples of these corruot businessmen you "know"?

    Well I can't say for legal reasons as that would be slander unless proven by a court of law so unfortunately no

    Just goes to show how corrupt are country is


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  • #192
    longhalloween
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭longhalloween


    el pasco wrote: »
    Well I can't say for legal reasons as that would be slander unless proven by a court of law so unfortunately no

    Just goes to show how corrupt are country is

    Its only slander if its false.


  • #193
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    el pasco wrote: »
    ... be slander unless proven by a court of law so unfortunately no

    Go nuts!

    You're just making up these businessmen to prove your point. They won't mind.


  • #194
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Go nuts!

    You're just making up these businessmen to prove your point. They won't mind.
    Well if we want to be cynical about another posters motives:
    You're just pouring doubt on his argument, because you support corruption in business and want to downplay it.

    That's about equally as fair as your statement - no?


  • #195
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Indeed - and this rot runs right up through government/banking/finance I'd say; this is what needs to be fixed, in order to properly get us out of crisis, yet we're only making very slow progress as a country, to tackling corruption in general.

    The one think that really struck me about this down turn was that oppose to clean up the country the rich corrupt c**** that got us into the mess are still largely untouched yet the poor gobs**** who never had any boom and was always at the bottem stills get screwed over and over
    Boom and bust happen everywhere its how you deal with them look at Finland after there bust in the 90's they took over most of there buildings and capped the rents and made them very very energy efficient and had a proper social mix so now Helsinki has a excellent energy efficient socially well mixed housing stick with affordable housing they turned something bad into something good


  • #196
    Cazzoenorme
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 137 ✭✭Cazzoenorme


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    You're trying to bait me into arguing tax rates/earning figures now. I'm talking about distribution of wealth, which is totally different to wages/earnings.

    No I'm not, I'm pointing out that large differences between the lowest and highest earners isn't necessarily a problem or something to be concerned about.


  • #197
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,316 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I hate to sully a great thread with facts, but here are some more from RL:
    And now, to reveal the answers, with some interesting facts about Ireland’s income tax system along the way:
    Ireland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their average tax rate was 27.5%.
    Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average tax rate was about 0.5%.
    It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before, we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.
    So, to go back to the quiz above, the answers are:
    Option 4 – the average millionaire pays six times the income tax rate of the average worker. There’s one thing the system ain’t and that’s regressive!
    Option 5 – amazingly, two thirds of the 2.2m people paying income tax in Ireland paid an average rate of less than 10%.
    Option 1 – as per above, the median earner pays about 4% in income tax in Ireland, compared to 20% in the OECD.



    Those figures look like they are pre USC days. When you add the unemployed we've over a million people with an income about the minimum wage or less.

    I think the lower paid should be paying more PRSI but in the rush to point out how little tax is paid by the less well off people seem to ignore that we've far too many people on low incomes! The 2 things are problems together, not 1 in itself.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #198
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Cazzoenorme wrote: »
    No I'm not, I'm pointing out that large differences between the lowest and highest earners isn't necessarily a problem or something to be concerned about.
    I'm not talking about earners - I'm talking about the distribution of wealth, and a large part of the problem with the distribution of wealth, is unearned income.


  • #199
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    el pasco wrote: »
    The one think that really struck me about this down turn was that oppose to clean up the country the rich corrupt c**** that got us into the mess are still largely untouched yet the poor gobs**** who never had any boom and was always at the bottem stills get screwed over and over
    Boom and bust happen everywhere its how you deal with them look at Finland after there bust in the 90's they took over most of there buildings and capped the rents and made them very very energy efficient and had a proper social mix so now Helsinki has a excellent energy efficient socially well mixed housing stick with affordable housing they turned something bad into something good

    Look what we get NAMA which is so corrupt not even in FOI and selling the country off to the American and British and Chinese etc selling properties for less than what other people are willing to pay for them crazy we now have a massive homelessness problem people can't afford to even rent a house and were now giving grants builders to build houses crazy!! And we'll even give state backing to private mortgages
    Have we learned nothing people!!


  • #200
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    el pasco wrote: »
    Look what we get NAMA which is so corrupt not even in FOI and selling the country off to the American and British and Chinese etc selling properties for less than what other people are willing to pay for them crazy we now have a massive homelessness problem people can't afford to even rent a house and were now giving grants builders to build houses crazy!! And we'll even give state backing to private mortgages
    Have we learned nothing people!!

    You quoted your own post there, champ :pac:


  • #201
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Go nuts!

    You're just making up these businessmen to prove your point. They won't mind.

    Believe what you want if you don't think that the country isn't full of corrupt tax dogging business then you obviously aren't living in the real world


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  • #202
    el pasco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭el pasco


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    You quoted your own post there, champ :pac:

    I posted it by accident


  • #203
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    And they did change things and continue to try and change them.

    The problem is that a lot of people thought that change meant that the economy would be fixed overnight and we could go back to living beyond our means.

    Homelessness is increasing, people are finding it harder to heat their homes, people are finding it hard to even go to school. In my college (UCD) students from disadvantaged backgrounds are sleeping in these cars some have barely enough to eat day in and day out and some have left college because of this.

    Now it's one thing to live by the pro austerity and anti austerity issues (both of which are very black and white) but it takes a special type of mentality to say that "we haven't got time to decide where the cuts come from" If you take cuts at randomly then we increase the homelessness, poverty and people going hungry.

    Most would agree that we need to reduce our deficit but it is not acceptable to cut the most disadvantaged in society agreeing with cuts that hits the most disadvantaged in society.

    It's very easy for people to agree to this and not be affected by these cuts in the slightest.


  • #204
    Cazzoenorme
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 137 ✭✭Cazzoenorme


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    I'm not talking about earners - I'm talking about the distribution of wealth, and a large part of the problem with the distribution of wealth, is unearned income.

    Can you clarify what you mean by unearned wealth, no t sure what you're referring to?


  • #205
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Cazzoenorme wrote: »
    Can you clarify what you mean by unearned wealth, no t sure what you're referring to?

    Unearned inheritance, access to better schools, inheritance of businesses. Many of the factors that result in the development of people who couldn't give a sh1t about cuts affecting the disadvantaged in society.


  • #206
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    el pasco wrote: »
    Believe what you want if you don't think that the country isn't full of corrupt tax dogging business then you obviously aren't living in the real world

    What % of businesses/business people are corrupt?


  • #207
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Unearned inheritance, access to better schools, inheritance of businesses. Many of the factors that result in the development of people who couldn't give a sh1t about cuts affecting the disadvantaged in society.

    What's 'unearned' inheritance and when does an inheritance become earned?


  • #208
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Unearned inheritance, access to better schools, inheritance of businesses. Many of the factors that result in the development of people who couldn't give a sh1t about cuts affecting the disadvantaged in society.

    So people who work all of their life and build up a business, save a few quid to leave to their kids/grandkids? When they die their business should be handed to the people? Their money should go into the social protection kitty and given to the poor?


  • #209
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    What's 'unearned' inheritance and when does an inheritance become earned?

    Apologies I should have explained that. Inheritance is not earned.


  • #210
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So people who work all of their life and build up a business, save a few quid to leave to their kids/grandkids? When they die their business should be handed to the people? Their money should go into the social protection kitty and given to the poor?

    No but it should be heavily taxed. Guess why? Because a cut to them will be less severe than a cut to those on the margins of society.


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  • #211
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Apologies I should have explained that. Inheritance is not earned.

    So when a person dies none of their possessions shouldn't be handed down?


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