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Fairly horrific new Garda allegations which were cut short in committee published

24

Comments

  • #32
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Wellkid1 wrote: »
    Can you imagine some of the stuff that hasn't and wont come out? In fairness the garda force is a reflection of other parts of society, like the way politicians have behaved and many other areas.

    About to open a serious can of worms here, but AH is kinda an example as well. For instance:
    masonchat wrote: »
    Have to i am shocked , i could turn a blind eye or maybe even offer a round of applause for some scum getting 7 bells knocked out of them , but they sound like horrendous cases above and only tip of ice berg probably.

    The problem is, if we're going to selectively tolerate police brutality based on our own prejudice about the victim's background (and bearing in mind that it's the media and the Gardai themselves who will be spinning the aforementioned background), saying "Ah well he probably deserved it, next!" then how the hell are we supposed to draw a line? Extra-judicial punishment is an all or nothing thing, either we vest the police with the power to administer corporal punishment - before someone has seen the inside of a courtroom, I might add - or we don't. We can't say "it's ok if the person "deserved it", because who makes that call? The Garda in question. Do you think rotten apples are going to be honest about that? Do you suppose for example that they wouldn't make sh!t up about someone they don't like when the real reason is because he cheated on their brothers' daughter, or because his dad is a drug dealer or something like that?

    Once we allow the police in any situation to act as judge, jury and executioner, it can't be stopped at higher levels and we cannot discriminate about when it's acceptable. GSOC lost a case quite recently because of this exact problem - Gardai in Cork pepper sprayed a guy who was already incapacitated, apparently out of anger and vengeance. GSOC prosecuted, it went to court and the judge basically said "Guy was a scumbag and had it coming", without reference to specifically whether it was necessary to protect anyone's safety. And people with opinions like masonchat's above (Not singling you out by the way, many many people on AH share your views and yours is simply the first one on hand to use as an example) are unwittingly fuelling this culture in which they can indeed get away with fairly monstrous acts because instead of a zero tolerance attitude to the police abusing people, we have a "Let's see what the victim is like before we decide whether it was wrong or not".

    We need to have a collective attitude of "it's always wrong".


  • #33
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    About to open a serious can of worms here, but AH is kinda an example as well. For instance:



    The problem is, if we're going to selectively tolerate police brutality based on our own prejudice about the victim's background (and bearing in mind that it's the media and the Gardai themselves who will be spinning the aforementioned background), saying "Ah well he probably deserved it, next!" then how the hell are we supposed to draw a line? Extra-judicial punishment is an all or nothing thing, either we vest the police with the power to administer corporal punishment - before someone has seen the inside of a courtroom, I might add - or we don't. We can't say "it's ok if the person "deserved it", because who makes that call? The Garda in question. Do you think rotten apples are going to be honest about that? Do you suppose for example that they wouldn't make sh!t up about someone they don't like when the real reason is because he cheated on their brothers' daughter, or because his dad is a drug dealer or something like that?

    Once we allow the police in any situation to act as judge, jury and executioner, it can't be stopped at higher levels and we cannot discriminate about when it's acceptable. GSOC lost a case quite recently because of this exact problem - Gardai in Cork pepper sprayed a guy who was already incapacitated, apparently out of anger and vengeance. GSOC prosecuted, it went to court and the judge basically said "Guy was a scumbag and had it coming", without reference to specifically whether it was necessary to protect anyone's safety. And people with opinions like masonchat's above (Not singling you out by the way, many many people on AH share your views and yours is simply the first one on hand to use as an example) are unwittingly fuelling this culture in which they can indeed get away with fairly monstrous acts because instead of a zero tolerance attitude to the police abusing people, we have a "Let's see what the victim is like before we decide whether it was wrong or not".

    We need to have a collective attitude of "it's always wrong".

    Will someone please think of the children?


  • #34
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    diomed wrote: »
    I'm worried that Garda standards have hit an all-time low.

    Fixed your post.


  • #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sure it's only a few bad eggs etc.


  • #36
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Funny, any mentioning here not that long ago of the Gardaì doing things like beatings or threatening people was usually met with the tone that the victims were scumbags / up to no good and probably deserved it, that the Gardaì could never be capable of doing such a thing.

    Yep, the Garda are untouchable in the eyes of Boards.ie middle Ireland posters, their most frequent victims - those on the fringes of society are 'scum' for daring to suggest any wrongdoing.

    The reason this country is how it is is the lack of questioning anything from the sheep.


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  • #37
    underachieved
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭underachieved


    drumswan wrote: »
    Yep, the Garda are untouchable in the eyes of Boards.ie middle Ireland posters, their most frequent victims - those on the fringes of society are 'scum' for daring to suggest any wrongdoing.

    The reason this country is how it is is the lack of questioning anything from the sheep.

    Just a quick question, has anyone got any actual proof that these things happened?? Any?????? At all??? Maybe if the doctor had actually brought proof to the dail comittee he was geving evidence to it would have been a good idea?? Even a shred of proof??

    Aren't things here still based on innocent until proven guilty or can anyone make allegations against people of horrendous crimes and have it accepted as fact??

    Is trial by media without proof now the standard of justice??


  • #38
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,765 ✭✭✭flutered


    for some time now ags has/is been seen as a job, rather than a vocation.


  • #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.


  • #40
    underachieved
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭underachieved


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

    Ok any proof to back up that massive generalisation?? I mean you literally just accused 13000 people of wrong doing?? So you're gonna need pretty conclusive proof to back up your opinion there??


  • #41
    The One Doctor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,322 ✭✭✭The One Doctor


    Jobs that allow power over others should not be given to those who want that power. It's the old story.


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  • #42
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    underachieved wrote: »
    Just a quick question, has anyone got any actual proof that these things happened?? Any?????? At all??? Maybe if the doctor had actually brought proof to the dail comittee he was geving evidence to it would have been a good idea?? Even a shred of proof??

    Aren't things here still based on innocent until proven guilty or can anyone make allegations against people of horrendous crimes and have it accepted as fact??

    Is trial by media without proof now the standard of justice??

    They may not have happened at all. Ten years ago we wouldnt even have got to hear the allegations, thats the difference.


  • #43
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

    Ethics would be a start IMO, accountability, integrity, honesty, the law.... Start with the basics, when training an Garda.,


  • #44
    Kess73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Given the track record that particular doctor has with the gardai, I would be taking any claims he makes with a pinch of salt, especially as he appears to be providing nothing at all by way of proof that the incisents actually happened.

    There was quite a bit of publicity some time back in Limerick when he was arrested and banned from the road. The judge that sentenced him was scathing in his remarks about the doctor and it was read out in court that he made verbal threats to the gardai about how he (the doctor) "knew people" and how he would be talking to the DPP about the gardai if they arrested him.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html


  • #45
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Kess73 wrote: »
    Given the track record that particular doctor has with the gardai, I would be taking any claims he makes with a pinch of salt.

    There was quite a bit of publicity some time back in Limerick when he was arrested and banned from the road. The judge that sentenced him was scathing in his remarks about the doctor and it was read out in court that he made verbal threats to the gardai about how he (the doctor) "knew people" and how he would be talking to the DPP about the gardai if they arrested him.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

    You don't even need to go into his past. Just look at the language he used and the consistency of his story. For example, all cells have toilets in them, so the possibility of preventing someone from using a toilet to the point where they wet themselves is very remote. And anyone who uses the term "borrowed" to describe a car theft, just to make their sob story sound more sad, is automatically going to have trouble convincing people they are on the level.


  • #46
    wicklowstevo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 919 ✭✭✭wicklowstevo


    The One Doctor wrote: »
    Jobs that allow power over others should not be given to those who want that power. It's the old story.

    best get cracking of a army of super robots so , or do you fancy the job your self


  • #47
    Knob Longman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭Knob Longman


    archer22 wrote: »
    Of course nobody is surprised or shocked.Its been common knowledge since the force was founded that it was rotten to the core.The only people in Ireland who didn't know this were those who chose not to know it.
    The surprising and shocking thing is that its taken nearly a hundred years to acknowledge and admit it...that truly is shocking!!

    Most of the people know its true, Its just they don't care, Look at how they ignored the child abuse they didn't care because it was the poor and vulnerable being abused..Ireland as a society is a rotten shambles.


  • #48
    underachieved
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭underachieved


    drumswan wrote: »
    They may not have happened at all. Ten years ago we wouldnt even have got to hear the allegations, thats the difference.

    Nope the need for PROOF of serious allegations was the same 10 years ago as was the idea of innocence until proven guilty.

    All I'm asking is have we reached the stage where I can say anything I like against people and have it accepted as fact??

    Proof is what I'm asking for?? The beating of a special needs juvenile in garda custody is the most serious allegation I have heard so far. All I'm asking is where is the evidence?? Maybe we should establish actual guilt before condemning people or else f£%k it let's just start locking people up for whatever we like??


  • #49
    vitani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭vitani


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You don't even need to go into his past. Just look at the language he used and the consistency of his story. For example, all cells have toilets in them, so the possibility of preventing someone from using a toilet to the point where they wet themselves is very remote.

    The toilet could have been out of order, or the person could have been left in an interview room.
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    And anyone who uses the term "borrowed" to describe a car theft, just to make their sob story sound more sad, is automatically going to have trouble convincing people they are on the level.

    The teenager's father was on the radio to back up the doctor's story. He claimed that the kid was arrested for driving without insurance, not for stealing a car.

    In relation to the doctor possibly having a 'grudge' against the gardai, well, it could equally be the other way round. The doctor claimed that he brought these claims to Alan Shatter and to supervisors in the Gardai and that nothing was done. He never gave a sample when he was arrested for drink driving, so who's to say he actually was drunk. It's his word against that of the Gardai, and apparently, one of them had previously told them he'd "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

    I'm not saying he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't be so quick to call him a liar either. The reality is probably somewhere in between.


  • #50
    underachieved
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭underachieved


    Knob Longman wrote: »
    Most of the people know its true, Its just they don't care, Look at how they ignored the child abuse they didn't care because it was the poor and vulnerable being abused..Ireland as a society is a rotten shambles.

    Child abuse scandal in the church has nothing to do with this whatsoever. Nothing.

    And the far majority of the people in this country are good decent people in my opinion. Society is made up of people not Lego bricks.


  • #51
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    vitani wrote: »
    The toilet could have been out of order, or the person could have been left in an interview room.

    It's a hole, how can it be out of order? If it doesn't flush the cell isn't used because it doesn't take long for a station to fill up with the stink.
    vitani wrote: »
    The teenager's father was on the radio to back up the doctor's story. He claimed that the kid was arrested for driving without insurance, not for stealing a car.

    You don't get arrested for no insurance. Your car gets taken and you get left on the roadside. The more likely scenario is that the kid took the car, the dad reported it stolen not realising his son had taken it, then withdrew the report once he realised the son had taken it and had been arrested.
    vitani wrote: »
    In relation to the doctor possibly having a 'grudge' against the gardai, well, it could equally be the other way round. The doctor claimed that he brought these claims to Alan Shatter and to supervisors in the Gardai and that nothing was done. He never gave a sample when he was arrested for drink driving, so who's to say he actually was drunk. It's his word against that of the Gardai, and apparently, one of them had previously told them he'd "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

    I'm not saying he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't be so quick to call him a liar either. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

    I doubt he's a liar. I'd say he's a gullible fool with a grudge. Although you'd have to wonder about his claim that Gardaí give out too much methadone when he is the one that would have been giving it out.


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  • #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    underachieved wrote: »
    Ok any proof to back up that massive generalisation?? I mean you literally just accused 13000 people of wrong doing?? So you're gonna need pretty conclusive proof to back up your opinion there??

    You're accusing them all of stupidity if you think they don't know what the others are up to.


  • #53
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    diomed wrote: »
    I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

    Who's fault is that? Why do you worry about it? Most of these excesses took place when the Gardai were in high standing.
    But there are a lot of teacher's pets on boards.ie that would like to blame the law abiding citizens of Ireland for this state of affairs.


  • #54
    archer22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure it's only a few bad eggs etc.
    Systems failure :D


  • #55
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    The doc should have a look at a few of his own colleagues antics over the years. Signing young ones in to the Magdalene Laundries, excessive billing etc.


  • #56
    EyeSight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭EyeSight


    It's about time Ireland snapped out of this "over respect" of Guards. In this country most people think that Guards, Doctors and at one time priests, are angels and can do anything they want without question


  • #57
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Tail Docker wrote: »
    ...........................................
    ......................................................................................
    ..........................................

    I await someone prominent commenting that the good Doctor has been under a lot of strain/isn't feeling well/has his facts askew, or whatever other slur gets fecked out any time someone opens their gob..

    This is unlikely to be Pee Flynn. Last time he tried it - it blew up on his face. Spectacularly. Anyway, he's busy working on the farm that he bought for his wife ........ and she didn't even know about it.

    Gardai still have not done anything - eventhough FF reported him for personally pocketing the Euro 50K which was solicited for FF funds. Why?


  • #58
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    underachieved wrote: »
    Nope the need for PROOF of serious allegations was the same 10 years ago as was the idea of innocence until proven guilty.

    All I'm asking is have we reached the stage where I can say anything I like against people and have it accepted as fact??

    Proof is what I'm asking for?? The beating of a special needs juvenile in garda custody is the most serious allegation I have heard so far. All I'm asking is where is the evidence?? Maybe we should establish actual guilt before condemning people or else f£%k it let's just start locking people up for whatever we like??

    Eh, the evidence will come to light or not at investigation stage, cool your jets. Unless you are expecting someone to post it on this thread on the internet?


  • #59
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Sunglasses Ron wrote: »
    Not too many, actually.

    From what I've read the parents of pre 80's/ 90's Ireland largely didn't believe their own children let alone bring it to the Gardai. The thought of a priest being interested in a woman, let alone a boy, was something the brainwashed simply would not comprehend. Sure look at the reception the son of Bishop Casey got from some of the public.

    Incidentally, has Gaybo ever apologised to Annie Murphy and her son for the disgraceful episode on the LL ......... where he alluded to the fact that the son would never be more that half as good a man as his father (Bishop Casey)


  • #60
    underachieved
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭underachieved


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You're accusing them all of stupidity if you think they don't know what the others are up to.

    No I'm not accusing anyone of anything, you are. All 13000 of them. I'm just asking you for proof.


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  • #61
    vitani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭vitani


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    It's a hole, how can it be out of order? If it doesn't flush the cell isn't used because it doesn't take long for a station to fill up with the stink.

    You don't get arrested for no insurance. Your car gets taken and you get left on the roadside. The more likely scenario is that the kid took the car, the dad reported it stolen not realising his son had taken it, then withdrew the report once he realised the son had taken it and had been arrested.

    I doubt he's a liar. I'd say he's a gullible fool with a grudge. Although you'd have to wonder about his claim that Gardaí give out too much methadone when he is the one that would have been giving it out.

    All of what you say could have happened, but I'm reserving judgement until more information comes out. There've been too many scandals in this country over the past few decades for any of us to immediately dismiss claims like these as not possible.


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