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Child Item

Fairly horrific new Garda allegations which were cut short in committee published

hatrickpatrick

Backstory: A doctor who spent years working with the Gardai blew the whistle on some new allegations in committee yesterday. He was cut off by the chairman on the grounds that this particular committee hearing was specifically for discussion of the 2005 Act and legislative changes (which is fair enough really, they weren't shutting him down, only trying to keep their meeting on topic as it's a very important topic which keeps getting kicked down the road by the developing situation)
He wrote out his allegations before appearing in committee, and even though he didn't get to read them, the Indo has a copy of his pre-written statement which contains a list of the allegations. For instance:

Indo wrote:

A young mother recovering from cervical cancer was held in custody for 12 hours.

A senior officer asked him to change his report on an assault by a garda on a man in custody.

A woman went into a diabetic coma after she was refused medical attention.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

Further down the article it goes into more detail about the particular case he tried to raise in the committee meeting, of a "special needs" (no further detail given) boy who was allegedly abused very seriously in custody:

In his statement, Dr O'Flaherty, who practised as a GP for 40 years, said the disabled youngster was stripped of his "pants and underpants" and left naked in a holding cell.

He alleges the boy told him both male and female gardai laughed as he was whipped with his belt buckle. The doctor claims the boy's father found him the day he was released with a rope and believed he was going to end his life.

And finally, an allegation that he was pressured into covering up evidence of someone being assaulted in custody:

Dr O'Flaherty also alleges he was told he would "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

Having read all of this, I'm saddened to find I'm not actually shocked. And that's a serious, serious problem, if this kind of thing has become so normalized by repeated scandals - this kind of thing should rock people to their core, but I suspect many will react as I did, with horror and outrage, but no surprise, no shock.

Presumably this man will be called before the commission of investigation into the Guerin findings. I'd hope also that he's passed these allegations on to GSOC, and I'm usually no fan of the Indo but fair play to them for publishing the story.

I have nothing against the committee chair for insisting that the committee remain on topic, I imagine some will rush to attack this decision but to be fair, we'll never sort out this whole mess if every issue that needs to be looked at ends up being sidelined by the more sensational issues. Important though this story is, equally important that all aspects of the Justice scandal are given equal time and aren't crowded out by one another. There was a huge reaction on Twitter yesterday condemning the committee for not allowing him to read his statement in full, IMO that's misdirected but that's just my opinion - regardless, this opens yet another disturbing new chapter in what's rapidly becoming one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state.

Sadly, I've seen and heard nothing which would give me any confidence that we've moved any further than the tip of the iceberg

Would cameras / microphones in Garda stations, vehicles and cells incur data protection breaches or are they a potential option? Before anyone mentions cost, cameras and microphones of various qualities are dirt cheap these days so I doubt that's a legitimate reason to hold off on it. Of course, that won't stop "blind spots" being found which seems to almost happen in other countries where they do have surveillance of police stations, schools, hospitals and other places where abuse might take place, but at least it'd be something, right?
Committee and gov't are already looking at dramatically strengthening GSOC's powers, predictably AGSI has already slammed the proposals after repeatedly attacking GSOC in recent weeks - their position is rapidly turning into a PR disaster for them given the tsunami of scandals over the last few months and even just this last fortnight, any suggestion by them that GSOC's powers need to be reigned in rather than expanded just looks (IMO) ridiculous. What else can or needs to be done? I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that general faith in the justice system is deteriorating rapidly day by day. Does the DPP / judicial system need a shake up as well? I've always thought the DPP is a little unaccountable and there seems to be a massive amount of power over justice concentrated in that one office. Sentencing guidelines seem to be on their way, but I wonder if the issues with the judiciary, particularly when it comes to dealing with Gardai convicted of offenses, are more cultural than legal, in which case they're far harder to solve.

What needs to be done in order to start drawing a line under this sorry chapter in Irish history?

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hatrickpatrick

Wellkid1 wrote: »

Can you imagine some of the stuff that hasn't and wont come out? In fairness the garda force is a reflection of other parts of society, like the way politicians have behaved and many other areas.

About to open a serious can of worms here, but AH is kinda an example as well. For instance:

masonchat wrote: »

Have to i am shocked , i could turn a blind eye or maybe even offer a round of applause for some scum getting 7 bells knocked out of them , but they sound like horrendous cases above and only tip of ice berg probably.

The problem is, if we're going to selectively tolerate police brutality based on our own prejudice about the victim's background (and bearing in mind that it's the media and the Gardai themselves who will be spinning the aforementioned background), saying "Ah well he probably deserved it, next!" then how the hell are we supposed to draw a line? Extra-judicial punishment is an all or nothing thing, either we vest the police with the power to administer corporal punishment - before someone has seen the inside of a courtroom, I might add - or we don't. We can't say "it's ok if the person "deserved it", because who makes that call? The Garda in question. Do you think rotten apples are going to be honest about that? Do you suppose for example that they wouldn't make sh!t up about someone they don't like when the real reason is because he cheated on their brothers' daughter, or because his dad is a drug dealer or something like that?

Once we allow the police in any situation to act as judge, jury and executioner, it can't be stopped at higher levels and we cannot discriminate about when it's acceptable. GSOC lost a case quite recently because of this exact problem - Gardai in Cork pepper sprayed a guy who was already incapacitated, apparently out of anger and vengeance. GSOC prosecuted, it went to court and the judge basically said "Guy was a scumbag and had it coming", without reference to specifically whether it was necessary to protect anyone's safety. And people with opinions like masonchat's above (Not singling you out by the way, many many people on AH share your views and yours is simply the first one on hand to use as an example) are unwittingly fuelling this culture in which they can indeed get away with fairly monstrous acts because instead of a zero tolerance attitude to the police abusing people, we have a "Let's see what the victim is like before we decide whether it was wrong or not".

We need to have a collective attitude of "it's always wrong".

Santa Cruz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

About to open a serious can of worms here, but AH is kinda an example as well. For instance:

The problem is, if we're going to selectively tolerate police brutality based on our own prejudice about the victim's background (and bearing in mind that it's the media and the Gardai themselves who will be spinning the aforementioned background), saying "Ah well he probably deserved it, next!" then how the hell are we supposed to draw a line? Extra-judicial punishment is an all or nothing thing, either we vest the police with the power to administer corporal punishment - before someone has seen the inside of a courtroom, I might add - or we don't. We can't say "it's ok if the person "deserved it", because who makes that call? The Garda in question. Do you think rotten apples are going to be honest about that? Do you suppose for example that they wouldn't make sh!t up about someone they don't like when the real reason is because he cheated on their brothers' daughter, or because his dad is a drug dealer or something like that?

Once we allow the police in any situation to act as judge, jury and executioner, it can't be stopped at higher levels and we cannot discriminate about when it's acceptable. GSOC lost a case quite recently because of this exact problem - Gardai in Cork pepper sprayed a guy who was already incapacitated, apparently out of anger and vengeance. GSOC prosecuted, it went to court and the judge basically said "Guy was a scumbag and had it coming", without reference to specifically whether it was necessary to protect anyone's safety. And people with opinions like masonchat's above (Not singling you out by the way, many many people on AH share your views and yours is simply the first one on hand to use as an example) are unwittingly fuelling this culture in which they can indeed get away with fairly monstrous acts because instead of a zero tolerance attitude to the police abusing people, we have a "Let's see what the victim is like before we decide whether it was wrong or not".

We need to have a collective attitude of "it's always wrong".

Will someone please think of the children?

Mr.Micro

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda standards have hit an all-time low.

Fixed your post.

[Deleted User]

Sure it's only a few bad eggs etc.

drumswan

Duggy747 wrote: »

Funny, any mentioning here not that long ago of the Gardaì doing things like beatings or threatening people was usually met with the tone that the victims were scumbags / up to no good and probably deserved it, that the Gardaì could never be capable of doing such a thing.

Yep, the Garda are untouchable in the eyes of Boards.ie middle Ireland posters, their most frequent victims - those on the fringes of society are 'scum' for daring to suggest any wrongdoing.

The reason this country is how it is is the lack of questioning anything from the sheep.

underachieved

drumswan wrote: »

Yep, the Garda are untouchable in the eyes of Boards.ie middle Ireland posters, their most frequent victims - those on the fringes of society are 'scum' for daring to suggest any wrongdoing.

The reason this country is how it is is the lack of questioning anything from the sheep.

Just a quick question, has anyone got any actual proof that these things happened?? Any?????? At all??? Maybe if the doctor had actually brought proof to the dail comittee he was geving evidence to it would have been a good idea?? Even a shred of proof??

Aren't things here still based on innocent until proven guilty or can anyone make allegations against people of horrendous crimes and have it accepted as fact??

Is trial by media without proof now the standard of justice??

flutered

for some time now ags has/is been seen as a job, rather than a vocation.

[Deleted User]

The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

underachieved

Deleted User wrote: »

The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

Ok any proof to back up that massive generalisation?? I mean you literally just accused 13000 people of wrong doing?? So you're gonna need pretty conclusive proof to back up your opinion there??

The One Doctor

Jobs that allow power over others should not be given to those who want that power. It's the old story.

drumswan

underachieved wrote: »

Just a quick question, has anyone got any actual proof that these things happened?? Any?????? At all??? Maybe if the doctor had actually brought proof to the dail comittee he was geving evidence to it would have been a good idea?? Even a shred of proof??

Aren't things here still based on innocent until proven guilty or can anyone make allegations against people of horrendous crimes and have it accepted as fact??

Is trial by media without proof now the standard of justice??

They may not have happened at all. Ten years ago we wouldnt even have got to hear the allegations, thats the difference.

Mr.Micro

Deleted User wrote: »

The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

Ethics would be a start IMO, accountability, integrity, honesty, the law.... Start with the basics, when training an Garda.,

Kess73

Given the track record that particular doctor has with the gardai, I would be taking any claims he makes with a pinch of salt, especially as he appears to be providing nothing at all by way of proof that the incisents actually happened.

There was quite a bit of publicity some time back in Limerick when he was arrested and banned from the road. The judge that sentenced him was scathing in his remarks about the doctor and it was read out in court that he made verbal threats to the gardai about how he (the doctor) "knew people" and how he would be talking to the DPP about the gardai if they arrested him.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

Little CuChulainn

Kess73 wrote: »

Given the track record that particular doctor has with the gardai, I would be taking any claims he makes with a pinch of salt.

There was quite a bit of publicity some time back in Limerick when he was arrested and banned from the road. The judge that sentenced him was scathing in his remarks about the doctor and it was read out in court that he made verbal threats to the gardai about how he (the doctor) "knew people" and how he would be talking to the DPP about the gardai if they arrested him.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

You don't even need to go into his past. Just look at the language he used and the consistency of his story. For example, all cells have toilets in them, so the possibility of preventing someone from using a toilet to the point where they wet themselves is very remote. And anyone who uses the term "borrowed" to describe a car theft, just to make their sob story sound more sad, is automatically going to have trouble convincing people they are on the level.

wicklowstevo

The One Doctor wrote: »

Jobs that allow power over others should not be given to those who want that power. It's the old story.

best get cracking of a army of super robots so , or do you fancy the job your self

Knob Longman

archer22 wrote: »

Of course nobody is surprised or shocked.Its been common knowledge since the force was founded that it was rotten to the core.The only people in Ireland who didn't know this were those who chose not to know it.
The surprising and shocking thing is that its taken nearly a hundred years to acknowledge and admit it...that truly is shocking!!

Most of the people know its true, Its just they don't care, Look at how they ignored the child abuse they didn't care because it was the poor and vulnerable being abused..Ireland as a society is a rotten shambles.

underachieved

drumswan wrote: »

They may not have happened at all. Ten years ago we wouldnt even have got to hear the allegations, thats the difference.

Nope the need for PROOF of serious allegations was the same 10 years ago as was the idea of innocence until proven guilty.

All I'm asking is have we reached the stage where I can say anything I like against people and have it accepted as fact??

Proof is what I'm asking for?? The beating of a special needs juvenile in garda custody is the most serious allegation I have heard so far. All I'm asking is where is the evidence?? Maybe we should establish actual guilt before condemning people or else f£%k it let's just start locking people up for whatever we like??

vitani

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You don't even need to go into his past. Just look at the language he used and the consistency of his story. For example, all cells have toilets in them, so the possibility of preventing someone from using a toilet to the point where they wet themselves is very remote.

The toilet could have been out of order, or the person could have been left in an interview room.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

And anyone who uses the term "borrowed" to describe a car theft, just to make their sob story sound more sad, is automatically going to have trouble convincing people they are on the level.

The teenager's father was on the radio to back up the doctor's story. He claimed that the kid was arrested for driving without insurance, not for stealing a car.

In relation to the doctor possibly having a 'grudge' against the gardai, well, it could equally be the other way round. The doctor claimed that he brought these claims to Alan Shatter and to supervisors in the Gardai and that nothing was done. He never gave a sample when he was arrested for drink driving, so who's to say he actually was drunk. It's his word against that of the Gardai, and apparently, one of them had previously told them he'd "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

I'm not saying he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't be so quick to call him a liar either. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

underachieved

Knob Longman wrote: »

Most of the people know its true, Its just they don't care, Look at how they ignored the child abuse they didn't care because it was the poor and vulnerable being abused..Ireland as a society is a rotten shambles.

Child abuse scandal in the church has nothing to do with this whatsoever. Nothing.

And the far majority of the people in this country are good decent people in my opinion. Society is made up of people not Lego bricks.

Little CuChulainn

vitani wrote: »

The toilet could have been out of order, or the person could have been left in an interview room.

It's a hole, how can it be out of order? If it doesn't flush the cell isn't used because it doesn't take long for a station to fill up with the stink.

vitani wrote: »

The teenager's father was on the radio to back up the doctor's story. He claimed that the kid was arrested for driving without insurance, not for stealing a car.

You don't get arrested for no insurance. Your car gets taken and you get left on the roadside. The more likely scenario is that the kid took the car, the dad reported it stolen not realising his son had taken it, then withdrew the report once he realised the son had taken it and had been arrested.

vitani wrote: »

In relation to the doctor possibly having a 'grudge' against the gardai, well, it could equally be the other way round. The doctor claimed that he brought these claims to Alan Shatter and to supervisors in the Gardai and that nothing was done. He never gave a sample when he was arrested for drink driving, so who's to say he actually was drunk. It's his word against that of the Gardai, and apparently, one of them had previously told them he'd "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

I'm not saying he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't be so quick to call him a liar either. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

I doubt he's a liar. I'd say he's a gullible fool with a grudge. Although you'd have to wonder about his claim that Gardaí give out too much methadone when he is the one that would have been giving it out.

[Deleted User]

underachieved wrote: »

Ok any proof to back up that massive generalisation?? I mean you literally just accused 13000 people of wrong doing?? So you're gonna need pretty conclusive proof to back up your opinion there??

You're accusing them all of stupidity if you think they don't know what the others are up to.

WilyCoyote

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

Who's fault is that? Why do you worry about it? Most of these excesses took place when the Gardai were in high standing.
But there are a lot of teacher's pets on boards.ie that would like to blame the law abiding citizens of Ireland for this state of affairs.

archer22

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure it's only a few bad eggs etc.

Systems failure

Santa Cruz

The doc should have a look at a few of his own colleagues antics over the years. Signing young ones in to the Magdalene Laundries, excessive billing etc.

EyeSight

It's about time Ireland snapped out of this "over respect" of Guards. In this country most people think that Guards, Doctors and at one time priests, are angels and can do anything they want without question

WilyCoyote

Tail Docker wrote: »

...........................................
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I await someone prominent commenting that the good Doctor has been under a lot of strain/isn't feeling well/has his facts askew, or whatever other slur gets fecked out any time someone opens their gob..

This is unlikely to be Pee Flynn. Last time he tried it - it blew up on his face. Spectacularly. Anyway, he's busy working on the farm that he bought for his wife ........ and she didn't even know about it.

Gardai still have not done anything - eventhough FF reported him for personally pocketing the Euro 50K which was solicited for FF funds. Why?

drumswan

underachieved wrote: »

Nope the need for PROOF of serious allegations was the same 10 years ago as was the idea of innocence until proven guilty.

All I'm asking is have we reached the stage where I can say anything I like against people and have it accepted as fact??

Proof is what I'm asking for?? The beating of a special needs juvenile in garda custody is the most serious allegation I have heard so far. All I'm asking is where is the evidence?? Maybe we should establish actual guilt before condemning people or else f£%k it let's just start locking people up for whatever we like??

Eh, the evidence will come to light or not at investigation stage, cool your jets. Unless you are expecting someone to post it on this thread on the internet?

WilyCoyote

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

Not too many, actually.

From what I've read the parents of pre 80's/ 90's Ireland largely didn't believe their own children let alone bring it to the Gardai. The thought of a priest being interested in a woman, let alone a boy, was something the brainwashed simply would not comprehend. Sure look at the reception the son of Bishop Casey got from some of the public.

Incidentally, has Gaybo ever apologised to Annie Murphy and her son for the disgraceful episode on the LL ......... where he alluded to the fact that the son would never be more that half as good a man as his father (Bishop Casey)

underachieved

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're accusing them all of stupidity if you think they don't know what the others are up to.

No I'm not accusing anyone of anything, you are. All 13000 of them. I'm just asking you for proof.

vitani

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's a hole, how can it be out of order? If it doesn't flush the cell isn't used because it doesn't take long for a station to fill up with the stink.

You don't get arrested for no insurance. Your car gets taken and you get left on the roadside. The more likely scenario is that the kid took the car, the dad reported it stolen not realising his son had taken it, then withdrew the report once he realised the son had taken it and had been arrested.

I doubt he's a liar. I'd say he's a gullible fool with a grudge. Although you'd have to wonder about his claim that Gardaí give out too much methadone when he is the one that would have been giving it out.

All of what you say could have happened, but I'm reserving judgement until more information comes out. There've been too many scandals in this country over the past few decades for any of us to immediately dismiss claims like these as not possible.