Fairly horrific new Garda allegations which were cut short in committee published

hatrickpatrick

Backstory: A doctor who spent years working with the Gardai blew the whistle on some new allegations in committee yesterday. He was cut off by the chairman on the grounds that this particular committee hearing was specifically for discussion of the 2005 Act and legislative changes (which is fair enough really, they weren't shutting him down, only trying to keep their meeting on topic as it's a very important topic which keeps getting kicked down the road by the developing situation)
He wrote out his allegations before appearing in committee, and even though he didn't get to read them, the Indo has a copy of his pre-written statement which contains a list of the allegations. For instance:

Indo wrote:

• A young mother recovering from cervical cancer was held in custody for 12 hours.
  
• A senior officer asked him to change his report on an assault by a garda on a man in custody.
  
• A woman went into a diabetic coma after she was refused medical attention.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

Further down the article it goes into more detail about the particular case he tried to raise in the committee meeting, of a "special needs" (no further detail given) boy who was allegedly abused very seriously in custody:

In his statement, Dr O'Flaherty, who practised as a GP for 40 years, said the disabled youngster was stripped of his "pants and underpants" and left naked in a holding cell.

He alleges the boy told him both male and female gardai laughed as he was whipped with his belt buckle. The doctor claims the boy's father found him the day he was released with a rope and believed he was going to end his life.

And finally, an allegation that he was pressured into covering up evidence of someone being assaulted in custody:

Dr O'Flaherty also alleges he was told he would "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

Having read all of this, I'm saddened to find I'm not actually shocked. And that's a serious, serious problem, if this kind of thing has become so normalized by repeated scandals - this kind of thing should rock people to their core, but I suspect many will react as I did, with horror and outrage, but no surprise, no shock.

Presumably this man will be called before the commission of investigation into the Guerin findings. I'd hope also that he's passed these allegations on to GSOC, and I'm usually no fan of the Indo but fair play to them for publishing the story.

I have nothing against the committee chair for insisting that the committee remain on topic, I imagine some will rush to attack this decision but to be fair, we'll never sort out this whole mess if every issue that needs to be looked at ends up being sidelined by the more sensational issues. Important though this story is, equally important that all aspects of the Justice scandal are given equal time and aren't crowded out by one another. There was a huge reaction on Twitter yesterday condemning the committee for not allowing him to read his statement in full, IMO that's misdirected but that's just my opinion - regardless, this opens yet another disturbing new chapter in what's rapidly becoming one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state.

Sadly, I've seen and heard nothing which would give me any confidence that we've moved any further than the tip of the iceberg

Would cameras / microphones in Garda stations, vehicles and cells incur data protection breaches or are they a potential option? Before anyone mentions cost, cameras and microphones of various qualities are dirt cheap these days so I doubt that's a legitimate reason to hold off on it. Of course, that won't stop "blind spots" being found which seems to almost happen in other countries where they do have surveillance of police stations, schools, hospitals and other places where abuse might take place, but at least it'd be something, right?
Committee and gov't are already looking at dramatically strengthening GSOC's powers, predictably AGSI has already slammed the proposals after repeatedly attacking GSOC in recent weeks - their position is rapidly turning into a PR disaster for them given the tsunami of scandals over the last few months and even just this last fortnight, any suggestion by them that GSOC's powers need to be reigned in rather than expanded just looks (IMO) ridiculous. What else can or needs to be done? I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that general faith in the justice system is deteriorating rapidly day by day. Does the DPP / judicial system need a shake up as well? I've always thought the DPP is a little unaccountable and there seems to be a massive amount of power over justice concentrated in that one office. Sentencing guidelines seem to be on their way, but I wonder if the issues with the judiciary, particularly when it comes to dealing with Gardai convicted of offenses, are more cultural than legal, in which case they're far harder to solve.

What needs to be done in order to start drawing a line under this sorry chapter in Irish history?

Conmaicne Mara

Not surprised. Anyone who has had dealings with the Gardaí know there are significant problems in the culture of the force.

This is only the start. Being a guard is such a powerful job that could be very easily abused, and obviously is being abused by certain members of the force. I hope that each and every one of them who is found guilty of such abuses gets named, shamed and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

hatrickpatrick

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Not surprised. Anyone who has had dealings with the Gardaí know there are significant problems in the culture of the force.

Interesting that so many are saying this, because when asked what kind of changes they would like to see, GSOC explicitly mentioned that they'd like the power to challenge the *culture* within AGS, and not just deal with individual complaints / cases.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gsoc-looking-for-power-to-investigate-garda-culture-630256.html

That'd certainly be a good place to start, but the question remains: How do you tackle issues of culture as oppose to issues of rules / laws? What kind of approach could be taken? People talk about the need for improved training, but I'm not sure that covers it - while certainly some abuses probably happen purely due to lack of adequate training and guidance for new members, some also happen simply because some humans are nasty pieces of work and they slip through the cracks into roles in society in which they have the opportunity to put their nastiness into action. In other words, improved training isn't going to stop someone who simply gets a sadistic kick out of assaulting someone. When it comes to cultural issues, GSOC can investigate them and issue guidelines, but beyond that what can actually be done, short of clearing out the entire force and vetting each of them one by one based on personality? That's obviously never going to work or happen...

Thoughts?

archer22

Of course nobody is surprised or shocked.Its been common knowledge since the force was founded that it was rotten to the core.The only people in Ireland who didn't know this were those who chose not to know it.
The surprising and shocking thing is that its taken nearly a hundred years to acknowledge and admit it...that truly is shocking!!

masonchat

Have to i am shocked , i could turn a blind eye or maybe even offer a round of applause for some scum getting 7 bells knocked out of them , but they sound like horrendous cases above and only tip of ice berg probably.

washman3

Has the great Gerry O'Carroll been interviewed by any of his pals in the media on this matter yet. He usually gets to comment on any cockfight that's happening in any corner of the country.;)

Karl Stein

Whistle blowers are the real police of the establishment.

Makes me wonder...

What about the members of AGS out there who know they have a closet full of skeletons waiting to be discovered? They are all going to be looking over their shoulders now, possibly wondering which guy/girl in their station is going to be the next AGS whistleblower. Will they take action to prevent disclosure from happening?

2014, not the best year for AGS so far. I feel bad for the many, many members who go about their job as normal, only for their reputation to be brought down by, lets face it in regards to the OP of this thread, scum.

diomed

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

suicide_circus

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

Why? Because the culture they have allowed to develop and let fester over the past 80 years is finally being exposed?

Micky Dolenz

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

And so it should. It can only go one way from here. rebuild it from the bottom up.

Tail Docker

suicide_circus wrote: »

Why? Because the culture they have allowed to develop and let fester over the past 80 years is finally being exposed?

Umm, lets hope no-one throws in possible complicity in the churches pretty much systematic abuse of children...how many parents/abused children/concerned adults went to the gardai to make complaints...yet nothing was done.. That could be a whole 'nother ball of dirty laundry. There won't be any consequences, naturally enough, erm, "lessons will be learnt going forwards", etc, etc, but could be another stain on the duvet worth airing.

I await someone prominent commenting that the good Doctor has been under a lot of strain/isn't feeling well/has his facts askew, or whatever other slur gets fecked out any time someone opens their gob..

Sunglasses Ron

Tail Docker wrote: »

...how many parents/abused children/concerned adults went to the gardai to make complaints....

Not too many, actually.

From what I've read the parents of pre 80's/ 90's Ireland largely didn't believe their own children let alone bring it to the Gardai. The thought of a priest being interested in a woman, let alone a boy, was something the brainwashed simply would not comprehend. Sure look at the reception the son of Bishop Casey got from some of the public.

I have always said though, there were an awful lot of people in the Gardai, doctors, nurses, social services and so forth who turned a blind eye to what was going on.

lightspeed

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

Should we take that same approach to politicians and bankers?

Im worried Garda arrogance and corruption will remain at an all time high.

Ray Palmer

I was walking my dog late at night once and I heard a car really speeding. Turned around with an angry expression and saw a Garda car. Did not change my expression and stared at them wondering why they were speeding and making so much noise. They had no lights on and had just gone through a major junction breaking the lights. It simple didn't make any sense.

Turned around and continued into the petrol station to buy something. There was a massive screech and the car comes racing into the forecourt. one of the 4 in the car starts asking what my problem was. I explained I didn't know it was a Garda car and then I couldn't understand why they were making so much noise and breaking lights. The vocal one starts various threats of violence until I hear in the back mention of security cameras in the petrol station. The guy says I am lucky and they then drove off at speed.

Obviously they weren't in a hurry anywhere if they came back to talk to me and I suspect they would have beaten me up if I hadn't been where I was.

That is also ignoring the time I was chased by an unmarked car while cycling home with the occupants drinking beer.

I have friends in the force and they will tell you of the nutters in work that people turn a blind eye to.

Wellkid1

Can you imagine some of the stuff that hasn't and wont come out? In fairness the garda force is a reflection of other parts of society, like the way politicians have behaved and many other areas.

Maphisto

I'm often struck on here that, "that" sounds like the UK 10 or 15 years ago. We all heard of some of the horrendous cases involving police there. Let me say though I'm not a police knocker, I worked quite extensively with various police forces throughout the UK.

Like everyone else in life, some police are great - you'd happily go for a pint or whatever, others are OK, and then some others are total feckers and if you never met them again.

I think the answers is a short trip across the Irish Sea:

• Change of culture from the top
• GSOC has to get really professional, with the absolute minimum of former gards
• CCTV in all Garda stations, custody suites, cells and interview rooms.
• Persons in charge of custody suites need to become mini-gods, so that they are accountable more for the well being of people in custody and less to management structure at that site.

Little CuChulainn

Wellkid1 wrote: »

Can you imagine some of the stuff that hasn't and wont come out? In fairness the garda force is a reflection of other parts of society, like the way politicians have behaved and many other areas.

The Garda force is a reflection of the people. Your average man would give out about police brutality but if they then catch a guy in their home at night see how their view changes. Your average man would give out about a nod and a wink but watch their view change when they get stopped on the phone. If people demand a more strict force they will get it. The average Garda won't really care because it won't affect them either way. Just means they'll get more overtime for attending court.

There's no doubt that there are a number of Gardaí who shouldn't be in the job and hopefully the current atmosphere will allow for those to be weeded out, as well as those keeping them there, but the view that the whole force is full of corruption is mostly media inspired bandwaggoning.

Unfortunately the trend has gone completely the opposite side of where it should be. Before it was hard to get a complaint taken seriously, now the mere sniff of an allegation is considered gospel. Anyone who listened to the doctor and knows about this stuff can automatically see a number inconsistencies with his claims but if you point them out you're automatically in a cover up.

Eventually the force will become what the people want and in another decade we will have the same thing again.

_Redzer_

Tbh, an awful lot of guards I've come across have been smug cúnts absolutely needlessly.

Spring Onion

I am so glad Garda corruption is coming to light. It really is about time. The question now is whether the culture can be changed.

blackwhite

Not doubting that there's been plenty of abuses by various Gardaí in both recent and not so recent times, but this doctor isn't exactly an unbiased witness to have testifying against the Gardaí

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

Spring Onion

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

Why? Reform and culture change can only be good. It is still a very good job, well paid, good perks, great pension.

That is like worrying that the morale in the Roman Catholic Church would go down when they root out child abuse.

Tigger

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

I think your humour may have gone over a few heads

Ray Palmer

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The Garda force is a reflection of the people.

Your average person is given no training to attack people nor carries weapons with the back up of lots of people.

I completely accept there are some who are actively bad. The issue is they have people covering for them by lying and also threatening people.

Little CuChulainn

Spring Onion wrote: »

Why? Reform and culture change can only be good. It is still a very good job, well paid, good perks, great pension.

That is like worrying that the morale in the Roman Catholic Church would go down when they root out child abuse.

Because it's easier to introduce change to a force that is accepting as opposed indifferent. The Garda morale isn't as low as it is simply because of the recent stuff. It was low before that. You have a force in unsuitable uniform, with unsuitable vehicles and equipment, struggling to comply with increased bureaucracy despite having limited access to technology. And that's just the start. Throw in insufficient legislation, pay cuts, increased workload and being forced to work outside of employee protection and health and safety law. The Gardaí aren't upset about penalty points and the like. It won't really affect them in the long run. They are upset that out of all the issues I just highlighted, these "scandals" are all the people have decided to get upset about.

Autonomous Cowherd

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

From what I've read the parents of pre 80's/ 90's Ireland largely didn't believe their own children let alone bring it to the Gardai.....
I have always said though, there were an awful lot of people in the Gardai, doctors, nurses, social services and so forth who turned a blind eye to what was going on.

Not just in the public services...we are all implicit and have been for generations. Every time some new pillar of society is brought crashing down - the police, the judiciary, the priestly class, the bankers, the politicians - ten thousand come out of the wood work to say they knew it all along.
When i was a kid people in general...that is the 'good' people, the general 'normal' public, the one's swishing their ways down the aisle to the front seats at Church every Sunday, the people like you and me...ignored the smelly kids in the class, the kids who could hardly read, the kids showing signs of obvious abuse. We all ignored the stories of yer wan pimping out her kids to bad men down the back of the pub. We ignored shouts and bruises and screams and kids looking out of the industrial schools.
There is no ''them' who are to blame. We are to blame as much as anyone. We all know what goes on. We know there are trafficked women in brothels in any large town. We know what people are thrashing their spouses after a bellyful of drink. We know what goes on because we hear it on the breeze. The ''authorities'' (police etc) come from within our own ranks, they are not ''other'' to us.
Mostly we stay back because we have inculcated this sense of ''other'' - they are not us, it is none of our business, they are working class, they are immigrants, they are dangerous, they are too rich to touch, they are any variety of endless excuses as to why we do not own our responsibility for tolerating OUR world the way it is.

Santa Cruz

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

I'm worried that I wont have enough for drink this weekend after getting my car serviced

jimgoose

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda morale will hit an all-time low.

They're dropping their own morale. A bit less of the bullying, Yippy-Ki-Yay-Muddafukka and generally acting like stupid youngfellas and a bit more acting like the highly-trained, principled police men and women they're theoretically supposed to be would go a long way in itself. And we need many more like Sergeant McCabe.

Birroc

I think they all need re-training. I would also increase the entry criteria for Templemore. You do not want thickos doing the job.

Duggy747

Funny, any mentioning here not that long ago of the Gardaì doing things like beatings or threatening people was usually met with the tone that the victims were scumbags / up to no good and probably deserved it, that the Gardaì could never be capable of doing such a thing.

hatrickpatrick

Wellkid1 wrote: »

Can you imagine some of the stuff that hasn't and wont come out? In fairness the garda force is a reflection of other parts of society, like the way politicians have behaved and many other areas.

About to open a serious can of worms here, but AH is kinda an example as well. For instance:

masonchat wrote: »

Have to i am shocked , i could turn a blind eye or maybe even offer a round of applause for some scum getting 7 bells knocked out of them , but they sound like horrendous cases above and only tip of ice berg probably.

The problem is, if we're going to selectively tolerate police brutality based on our own prejudice about the victim's background (and bearing in mind that it's the media and the Gardai themselves who will be spinning the aforementioned background), saying "Ah well he probably deserved it, next!" then how the hell are we supposed to draw a line? Extra-judicial punishment is an all or nothing thing, either we vest the police with the power to administer corporal punishment - before someone has seen the inside of a courtroom, I might add - or we don't. We can't say "it's ok if the person "deserved it", because who makes that call? The Garda in question. Do you think rotten apples are going to be honest about that? Do you suppose for example that they wouldn't make sh!t up about someone they don't like when the real reason is because he cheated on their brothers' daughter, or because his dad is a drug dealer or something like that?

Once we allow the police in any situation to act as judge, jury and executioner, it can't be stopped at higher levels and we cannot discriminate about when it's acceptable. GSOC lost a case quite recently because of this exact problem - Gardai in Cork pepper sprayed a guy who was already incapacitated, apparently out of anger and vengeance. GSOC prosecuted, it went to court and the judge basically said "Guy was a scumbag and had it coming", without reference to specifically whether it was necessary to protect anyone's safety. And people with opinions like masonchat's above (Not singling you out by the way, many many people on AH share your views and yours is simply the first one on hand to use as an example) are unwittingly fuelling this culture in which they can indeed get away with fairly monstrous acts because instead of a zero tolerance attitude to the police abusing people, we have a "Let's see what the victim is like before we decide whether it was wrong or not".

We need to have a collective attitude of "it's always wrong".

Santa Cruz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

About to open a serious can of worms here, but AH is kinda an example as well. For instance:



The problem is, if we're going to selectively tolerate police brutality based on our own prejudice about the victim's background (and bearing in mind that it's the media and the Gardai themselves who will be spinning the aforementioned background), saying "Ah well he probably deserved it, next!" then how the hell are we supposed to draw a line? Extra-judicial punishment is an all or nothing thing, either we vest the police with the power to administer corporal punishment - before someone has seen the inside of a courtroom, I might add - or we don't. We can't say "it's ok if the person "deserved it", because who makes that call? The Garda in question. Do you think rotten apples are going to be honest about that? Do you suppose for example that they wouldn't make sh!t up about someone they don't like when the real reason is because he cheated on their brothers' daughter, or because his dad is a drug dealer or something like that?

Once we allow the police in any situation to act as judge, jury and executioner, it can't be stopped at higher levels and we cannot discriminate about when it's acceptable. GSOC lost a case quite recently because of this exact problem - Gardai in Cork pepper sprayed a guy who was already incapacitated, apparently out of anger and vengeance. GSOC prosecuted, it went to court and the judge basically said "Guy was a scumbag and had it coming", without reference to specifically whether it was necessary to protect anyone's safety. And people with opinions like masonchat's above (Not singling you out by the way, many many people on AH share your views and yours is simply the first one on hand to use as an example) are unwittingly fuelling this culture in which they can indeed get away with fairly monstrous acts because instead of a zero tolerance attitude to the police abusing people, we have a "Let's see what the victim is like before we decide whether it was wrong or not".

We need to have a collective attitude of "it's always wrong".

Will someone please think of the children?

Mr.Micro

diomed wrote: »

I'm worried that Garda standards have hit an all-time low.

Fixed your post.

Sure it's only a few bad eggs etc.

drumswan

Duggy747 wrote: »

Funny, any mentioning here not that long ago of the Gardaì doing things like beatings or threatening people was usually met with the tone that the victims were scumbags / up to no good and probably deserved it, that the Gardaì could never be capable of doing such a thing.

Yep, the Garda are untouchable in the eyes of Boards.ie middle Ireland posters, their most frequent victims - those on the fringes of society are 'scum' for daring to suggest any wrongdoing.

The reason this country is how it is is the lack of questioning anything from the sheep.

underachieved

drumswan wrote: »

Yep, the Garda are untouchable in the eyes of Boards.ie middle Ireland posters, their most frequent victims - those on the fringes of society are 'scum' for daring to suggest any wrongdoing.

The reason this country is how it is is the lack of questioning anything from the sheep.

Just a quick question, has anyone got any actual proof that these things happened?? Any?????? At all??? Maybe if the doctor had actually brought proof to the dail comittee he was geving evidence to it would have been a good idea?? Even a shred of proof??

Aren't things here still based on innocent until proven guilty or can anyone make allegations against people of horrendous crimes and have it accepted as fact??

Is trial by media without proof now the standard of justice??

flutered

for some time now ags has/is been seen as a job, rather than a vocation.

The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

underachieved

Deleted User wrote: »

The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

Ok any proof to back up that massive generalisation?? I mean you literally just accused 13000 people of wrong doing?? So you're gonna need pretty conclusive proof to back up your opinion there??

The One Doctor

Jobs that allow power over others should not be given to those who want that power. It's the old story.

drumswan

underachieved wrote: »

Just a quick question, has anyone got any actual proof that these things happened?? Any?????? At all??? Maybe if the doctor had actually brought proof to the dail comittee he was geving evidence to it would have been a good idea?? Even a shred of proof??

Aren't things here still based on innocent until proven guilty or can anyone make allegations against people of horrendous crimes and have it accepted as fact??

Is trial by media without proof now the standard of justice??

They may not have happened at all. Ten years ago we wouldnt even have got to hear the allegations, thats the difference.

Mr.Micro

Deleted User wrote: »

The only way to fix it would be to start again. I doubt a Garda would last a year starting off without covering up or being complicit in something that someone else did wrong. Once that happens they know that if they do raise concerns then their own misdeeds will be used to get rid of them. It's a bad situation but there's no simple answer to clearing out the rot.

Ethics would be a start IMO, accountability, integrity, honesty, the law.... Start with the basics, when training an Garda.,

Kess73

Given the track record that particular doctor has with the gardai, I would be taking any claims he makes with a pinch of salt, especially as he appears to be providing nothing at all by way of proof that the incisents actually happened.

There was quite a bit of publicity some time back in Limerick when he was arrested and banned from the road. The judge that sentenced him was scathing in his remarks about the doctor and it was read out in court that he made verbal threats to the gardai about how he (the doctor) "knew people" and how he would be talking to the DPP about the gardai if they arrested him.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

Little CuChulainn

Kess73 wrote: »

Given the track record that particular doctor has with the gardai, I would be taking any claims he makes with a pinch of salt.

There was quite a bit of publicity some time back in Limerick when he was arrested and banned from the road. The judge that sentenced him was scathing in his remarks about the doctor and it was read out in court that he made verbal threats to the gardai about how he (the doctor) "knew people" and how he would be talking to the DPP about the gardai if they arrested him.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

You don't even need to go into his past. Just look at the language he used and the consistency of his story. For example, all cells have toilets in them, so the possibility of preventing someone from using a toilet to the point where they wet themselves is very remote. And anyone who uses the term "borrowed" to describe a car theft, just to make their sob story sound more sad, is automatically going to have trouble convincing people they are on the level.

wicklowstevo

The One Doctor wrote: »

Jobs that allow power over others should not be given to those who want that power. It's the old story.

best get cracking of a army of super robots so , or do you fancy the job your self

Knob Longman

archer22 wrote: »

Of course nobody is surprised or shocked.Its been common knowledge since the force was founded that it was rotten to the core.The only people in Ireland who didn't know this were those who chose not to know it.
The surprising and shocking thing is that its taken nearly a hundred years to acknowledge and admit it...that truly is shocking!!

Most of the people know its true, Its just they don't care, Look at how they ignored the child abuse they didn't care because it was the poor and vulnerable being abused..Ireland as a society is a rotten shambles.

underachieved

drumswan wrote: »

They may not have happened at all. Ten years ago we wouldnt even have got to hear the allegations, thats the difference.

Nope the need for PROOF of serious allegations was the same 10 years ago as was the idea of innocence until proven guilty.

All I'm asking is have we reached the stage where I can say anything I like against people and have it accepted as fact??

Proof is what I'm asking for?? The beating of a special needs juvenile in garda custody is the most serious allegation I have heard so far. All I'm asking is where is the evidence?? Maybe we should establish actual guilt before condemning people or else f£%k it let's just start locking people up for whatever we like??

vitani

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You don't even need to go into his past. Just look at the language he used and the consistency of his story. For example, all cells have toilets in them, so the possibility of preventing someone from using a toilet to the point where they wet themselves is very remote.

The toilet could have been out of order, or the person could have been left in an interview room.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

And anyone who uses the term "borrowed" to describe a car theft, just to make their sob story sound more sad, is automatically going to have trouble convincing people they are on the level.

The teenager's father was on the radio to back up the doctor's story. He claimed that the kid was arrested for driving without insurance, not for stealing a car.

In relation to the doctor possibly having a 'grudge' against the gardai, well, it could equally be the other way round. The doctor claimed that he brought these claims to Alan Shatter and to supervisors in the Gardai and that nothing was done. He never gave a sample when he was arrested for drink driving, so who's to say he actually was drunk. It's his word against that of the Gardai, and apparently, one of them had previously told them he'd "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

I'm not saying he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't be so quick to call him a liar either. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

underachieved

Knob Longman wrote: »

Most of the people know its true, Its just they don't care, Look at how they ignored the child abuse they didn't care because it was the poor and vulnerable being abused..Ireland as a society is a rotten shambles.

Child abuse scandal in the church has nothing to do with this whatsoever. Nothing.

And the far majority of the people in this country are good decent people in my opinion. Society is made up of people not Lego bricks.

Little CuChulainn

vitani wrote: »

The toilet could have been out of order, or the person could have been left in an interview room.

It's a hole, how can it be out of order? If it doesn't flush the cell isn't used because it doesn't take long for a station to fill up with the stink.

vitani wrote: »

The teenager's father was on the radio to back up the doctor's story. He claimed that the kid was arrested for driving without insurance, not for stealing a car.

You don't get arrested for no insurance. Your car gets taken and you get left on the roadside. The more likely scenario is that the kid took the car, the dad reported it stolen not realising his son had taken it, then withdrew the report once he realised the son had taken it and had been arrested.

vitani wrote: »

In relation to the doctor possibly having a 'grudge' against the gardai, well, it could equally be the other way round. The doctor claimed that he brought these claims to Alan Shatter and to supervisors in the Gardai and that nothing was done. He never gave a sample when he was arrested for drink driving, so who's to say he actually was drunk. It's his word against that of the Gardai, and apparently, one of them had previously told them he'd "regret" not altering a medical report on an examination of a man who was beaten up by a garda while in custody.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-needs-boy-beaten-by-gardai-tried-to-kill-himself-30276172.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/arrogant-doctor-handed-twoyear-road-ban-26004015.html

I'm not saying he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't be so quick to call him a liar either. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

I doubt he's a liar. I'd say he's a gullible fool with a grudge. Although you'd have to wonder about his claim that Gardaí give out too much methadone when he is the one that would have been giving it out.