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Eurovision Song Contest 2014

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    #5162
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    gavmcg92 wrote: »
    It's interesting. To me this graph points to some of the failures of the jury system. It seems that across the board, regardless of the country voting, Austria was loved by the general public. However, you then have the failure of the 100% public vote system when you have acts like Poland coming first in the likes of the UK and Ireland. I suppose for now the 50/50 system works to cancel the problems out from both sides leaving the best act taking the crown.
    Yeah, it does seem to even out, I wonder if 50/50 is perhaps the right proportion though or should it be weighted a little more towards the televote.


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    #5163
    DubVelo
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭DubVelo


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    Vis a vis the "popular" Irish vote for Poland and some of the negative comment regarding the Austrian winner , I reckon (b) most of the voting was by Polish people living here and (b) the rest was by those who enjoyed the "spectacle" that was the Polish girls ! In a similar way , many voted for Conchita because she was different.......takes all sorts thankfully ! What was the Polish song about anyway ??? It definitely won the "booby" prize on the night for sure !!

    I'd guess there's a fair bit of a neighbourly vote for Poland as well considering the cultural ties. It certainly didn't deserve to be voted the worst song by our jury.


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    #5164
    AK333
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭AK333


    QUOTE [the staging of their 2014 entry that cost them qualification for the final. It has been suggested that Ireland should opt for an internal selection like that of the UK] QUOTE

    Well that worked well for them didn't it :rolleyes:

    Lets look at successful countries like Sweden, and see how they choose their entry - why do we always have to look at the UK for everything


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    #5165
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    So both the UK and Irish public voted Poland first, but their juries but them last, that was harsh from the juries! Me smells a rat!


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    #5166
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,156 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    The best song won. Some people just don't like seeing men wearing dresses. It bothers them for some reason (although non of the posters will admit that on here).

    I got Austria at 25/1, so I'm delighted.


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    #5167
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,156 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Lapin wrote: »
    Not trolling.

    Are you seriously seriously trying to tell me that Austria's entry tonight deserved to win?

    Are you seriously suggesting Ireland was better than Austria?

    The public had their say and they disagreed.


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    #5168
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    efb wrote: »
    So both the UK and Irish public voted Poland first, but their juries but them last, that was harsh from the juries! Me smells a rat!

    I don't think the juries know the vote coming in (which in this case was largely driven by the Polish community I suppose).


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    #5169
    emanresu esrever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭emanresu esrever


    efb wrote: »
    So both the UK and Irish public voted Poland first, but their juries but them last, that was harsh from the juries! Me smells a rat!

    But who are the juries? They are hardly governmental, anti immigration officials. I'd be more interested in seeing how many people actually vote for the eurovision.
    Logically, you cannot vote for your own country so your motivation to vote for another would be greatly depreciated.
    HOWEVER, if you are living in another country, of course you can vote for YOUR OWN country, so your tendency to vote will increase, so thats why neighbouring countries get voting for eachother.

    Also, while I alluded to the fact that the jury wouldnt be anti-Polish, er se, they would understand that a large Polish phone vote will amount, I think perhaps they would try to balance this out somewhat, however unfairly by giving a lower vote.

    While it seems like I am contradicting my earlier statement, my overall point is that it isnt out of a dislike of Polish people that the jurors may vote like that, but moreso out of a dislike of block voting.

    I think that having a combined voting system is the only way to deal with block voting which would be an awful lot worse otherwise.

    Hope you follow what I am saying



    Ps I have yet to meet anyone who has actually voted for the Eurovision (or disclosed that they have). I imagine its hardly hundreds of thousands of votes


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    #5170
    emanresu esrever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭emanresu esrever


    mhge wrote: »
    I don't think the juries know the vote coming in (which in this case was largely driven by the Polish community I suppose).

    I would imagine they would be very aware of the amount of Polish living here and hence the likelihood that the Polish vote from public would be substantial.

    See my point above.


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    #5171
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    mhge wrote: »
    I don't think the juries know the vote coming in (which in this case was largely driven by the Polish community I suppose).

    They vote the night before so they have no idea whatsoever how the public are going to vote. Putting them in last place was a bit over the top but they were one of the worst acts of the night musically. Definitely didn't deserve to get any points from us.
    emanresu esrever wrote: »
    But who are the juries? They are hardly governmental, anti immigration officials. I'd be more interested in seeing how many people actually vote for the eurovision.
    Logically, you cannot vote for your own country so your motivation to vote for another would be greatly depreciated.
    HOWEVER, if you are living in another country, of course you can vote for YOUR OWN country, so your tendency to vote will increase, so thats why neighbouring countries get voting for eachother.

    Also, while I alluded to the fact that the jury wouldnt be anti-Polish, er se, they would understand that a large Polish phone vote will amount, I think perhaps they would try to balance this out somewhat, however unfairly by giving a lower vote.

    While it seems like I am contradicting my earlier statement, my overall point is that it isnt out of a dislike of Polish people that the jurors may vote like that, but moreso out of a dislike of block voting.

    I think that having a combined voting system is the only way to deal with block voting which would be an awful lot worse otherwise.

    Hope you follow what I am saying



    Ps I have yet to meet anyone who has actually voted for the Eurovision (or disclosed that they have). I imagine its hardly hundreds of thousands of votes

    You can see who the jury members are by looking at the voting page on the eurovision website. To be honest I think it's a ridiculous accusation to make that the Irish jury voted to knock off the public vote. The song was dreadful and warranted a low score. As for who votes in the eurovision? Many people here, me included, voted a couple of times for our favourite acts. Looking back at my text messages I gave a vote to Austria, Malta and the UK. I think you would be surprised at how many votes RTE takes in for the competition. The official figures are not given as it opens the possibility of voting manipulation in smaller countries where less people are voting. If the figures for televotes are too low, in the case of San Marino, then the results for that country are made up entirely of jury's results.


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    #5172
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Ok my take on it...the song wasn't outstanding and certainly no better than 4 or 5 top contenders.
    However a good song plus unique selling point in this case drag act equals victory. The contest depends on visual as well as audio these days particularly with the public having a say many of whom don't have a musical note in their head and who treat the contest as a bit of a joke.

    So Ireland's entry next year needs to be a good song sung by someone with a unique selling point who the audience can almost feel sorry for. Basically we need to find a freak who can sing!


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    #5173
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    gavmcg92 wrote: »
    They vote the night before so they have no idea whatsoever how the public are going to vote. Putting them in last place was a bit over the top but they were one of the worst acts of the night musically. Definitely didn't deserve to get any points from us.

    I thought the french song was decent and didnt deserve to come last. It treated the contest with the llight heartedness it deserves.


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    #5174
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    realweirdo wrote: »
    I thought the french song was decent and didnt deserve to come last. It treated the contest with the llight heartedness it deserves.

    This is a minor problem with the cultural aspect of the voting. It dictates how the bottom half of the score board looks. The French song wasn't the worst but it wasn't great either. Didn't deserve to be on the left hand side of the board. You need to forget about how acts position after 15/20. After that the position is neither relevant or indicative of how Europe as a whole enjoyed the performances.


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    #5175
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    realweirdo wrote: »
    However a good song plus unique selling point in this case drag act equals victory.

    This is a key point. To me, there's three factors in play during an act.

    1. Is the song great and memorable (are you able to sing in the next day)?
    2. Is the performer recognizable/memorable (be they a gimmick or a renowned act)?
    3. Block voting (Can you guarantee some votes regardless of 1 and 2)?

    To win, you need two of those three factors to be very strong, and can take a hit in the third. Last night, Austria hit 1 and 2, and had enough of 3 to win it (though not as overwhelmingly as other winners have in recent times).

    Coincidentally, we failed (imo) to hit any of the three this year or last; I think Jedward hit Number 2 well and hit 1 decently as well in their first try, hence why they did so well. England last night hit 1 but not 2 or 3. The reality is we will never get a high rank in the third factor so need to nail both 1 and 2 perfectly.


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    #5176
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why is the media (or some media coverage) referring to the winner as 'she' rather than 'he'?


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    #5177
    DubVelo
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭DubVelo


    realweirdo wrote: »
    I thought the french song was decent and didnt deserve to come last. It treated the contest with the llight heartedness it deserves.

    No, it was terrible. Truly the worst of the night and deserved to be last.


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    #5178
    Irish Aris
    Registered Users Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭Irish Aris


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why is the media (or some media coverage) referring to the winner as 'she' rather than 'he'?

    because he took part as Conchita Wurst, the female character he has created back in 2011.


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    #5179
    DubVelo
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭DubVelo


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why is the media (or some media coverage) referring to the winner as 'she' rather than 'he'?

    Oh god, please don't start that again!


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    #5180
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Irish Aris wrote: »
    because he took part as Conchita Wurst, the female character he has created back in 2011.

    Okay, but he is a he. He is a transvestite, not a transsexual.


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    #5181
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    Okay, but he is a he. He is a transvestite, not a transsexual.

    He's not a transvestite, he's a drag act. If he's not on stage as "her", Conchita, he's a gay guy.


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    #5182
    Irish Aris
    Registered Users Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭Irish Aris


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    Okay, but he is a he. He is a transvestite, not a transsexual.

    correct.
    When he is speaking as Tom Neuwurth, he refers to himself as a he.
    When she is speaking as Conchita Wurst, she is referring to herself as a she.

    This approach is quite common (or at least can easily be found) in drag show/characters.


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    #5183
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Irish Aris wrote: »
    correct.
    When he is speaking as Tom Neuwurth, he refers to himself as a he.
    When she is spekaing as Conchita Wurst, she is referring to herself as a she.

    This approach is quite common (or at least can easily be found) in drag show/characters.

    Thanks.


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    #5184
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    I'm going to be controversial here and say we need to send johnny logan next year or someone with european wide recognition. I think the acts that generally do well are those that are recognised across europe either for the usp element or for being an outstanding song. As has been stated we will never gain from bloc voting and the chances of us producing an outstanding song are slim. Those acts which generate hype in the week beforehand have a big advantage. Lets be honest most of the public are impressionable, follow the crowd and couldn't tell a good song from a bad one.


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    #5185
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,122 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    realweirdo wrote: »
    I'm going to be controversial here and say we need to send johnny logan next year or someone with european wide recognition. I think the acts that generally do well are those that are recognised across europe either for the usp element or for being an outstanding song. As has been stated we will never gain from bloc voting and the chances of us producing an outstanding song are slim. Those acts which generate hype in the week beforehand have a big advantage. Lets be honest most of the public are impressionable, follow the crowd and couldn't tell a good song from a bad one.

    Johnny Logan won't work. He's too old and I'd predict a backlash against him based on him winning previously.


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    #5186
    thelad95
    Registered Users Posts: 7,812 ✭✭✭thelad95


    Is there anything to be said for sending an already well-recognised international act instead of a (with all due respect to Kasey) relative no-body. I'm not sure how up for it they would be but why not send the Script or Kodaline or even Imelda May? The UK sent Blue over a couple of years ago and they got a respectable result.


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    #5187
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Johnny Logan won't work. He's too old and I'd predict a backlash against him based on him winning previously.

    Not at all...we've tried young singers every year for the last 10 years. Their average age was about 23. Apart from jedward the rest were annonymous outside of ireland. A lot of it is to do with recognisibility. Theres also the nostalic element.

    There's actually a lot of ingredients that go into producing a eurovision winning entry and a good song is a minor element these days. Presentation, hype, usp and so on also count. Sending another unknown next year equals failure. Stand out acts win.


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    #5188
    realweirdo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 974 ✭✭✭realweirdo


    thelad95 wrote: »
    Is there anything to be said for sending an already well-recognised international act instead of a (with all due respect to Kasey) relative no-body. I'm not sure how up for it they would be but why not send the Script or Kodaline or even Imelda May? The UK sent Blue over a couple of years ago and they got a respectable result.

    I do't think they would have the nessecary kitsch credentials. A drag act would have a better chance to be honest. Its all about kitsch these days and the lgbt constituency is reasonably big. A gay icon might also help.


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    #5189
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Apart from jedward the rest were annonymous outside of ireland.

    Many were anonymous within Ireland as well :P


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    #5190
    Lightbulb Sun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭Lightbulb Sun


    efb wrote: »
    So both the UK and Irish public voted Poland first, but their juries but them last, that was harsh from the juries! Me smells a rat!

    Might have fared better with the juries if the song was any good, one of the weakest songs last night.


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    #5191
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    realweirdo wrote: »
    Not at all...we've tried young singers every year for the last 10 years. Their average age was about 23. Apart from jedward the rest were annonymous outside of ireland. A lot of it is to do with recognisibility. Theres also the nostalic element.

    There's actually a lot of ingredients that go into producing a eurovision winning entry and a good song is a minor element these days. Presentation, hype, usp and so on also count. Sending another unknown next year equals failure. Stand out acts win.

    We sent Niamh Kavanagh a couple of years ago. Acts like that are never going to win. Europe and eurovision watchers want fresh faces with a great song.

    Also, block voting doesn't dictate the winner.


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