The great big "Ask about Islam" thread

Tom Dunne wrote: »

And I think I'm done here.

I really liked what you were trying to do with this thread.... pity it didn't work out.

Thanks Amilda, you think like many of my Muslim friends its nice to hear a moderate modern perspective
Since you ask, to my limited knowledge men and women are regarded quiet differently in Islam, accorded different rights, to be honest i have heard this said but i know very little of rights accorded to women although many muslim women i know feel that islam gave them rights when they had none way back when. what do think of this? would like to see it become more equal?

Wuffly : no worries, very nice to speak with you as well.

This topic is one that I think is one of the most important when it comes to religion. The answer can't be simple regarding Islam, I will explain why.

As I said before, there are as many different ways of practicing Islam as they are people practicing it. Each country, and sometimes each people within one country, will do it differently.
We need a bit of historic and cultural facts to back up the answer there.

My parents are from Algeria, and some of you may know that this country went through the terrible terrorist decade back in the 90's, that saw many people killed (allegedly both by the government and extremists islamic militants). At this time some crazy people wanted to apply the most dreaded Charia and to use the Quran as the only possible legislation, and went as far as to declare that Democracy was "Kufar" ("Impious" ?).

Later as they couldn't be elected for different reasons, those islamic groups declared the war to all Algerians (no less than that) saying that the whole nation ought to be destroyed and killed as Algerians did not want to give up on the Western way of life. Indeed, having been a colony under the influence of France, after the end of the Independence war in 1962, the country did kept a lot from its former Western influences. Women tended to be very free, working, going to university, outside without any "male supervision" etc, didn't cover up their hair etc. This was going on for quite a time before the Islamic groups started to criticize this way of life and wanted to stop it. There were more political than religious issues at stake actually, but to keep it simple, Islamic groups started to slaughter - and I mean slaughter - people, being particularly cruel to women, raping them, cutting their throats, bellies, doing horrendous stuff that I can't even describe. Algerian women, with also some men, demonstrated to ask the European nation for help as their freedom was threatened. It didn't do any good and most of those who dared keep their free way of life were killed. In the climax of it, one high school girl named Katia, received threats because she would be the only girl of her school who didn't want to accept to wear a veil. She received dead threat but didn't give into that. Later she was killed form a bullet right on her forehead. Just because she didn't want to let some random males telling her how she should live.

This was back in the 90s.
Since then the country has changed a lot. Today my female cousins can go outside with no male supervision, they work, they all have degrees. But there is still a big sense of bigotry, coming even from the women themselves, who would all talk bad about a girl not covering up her hair for instance.

So there is undoubtedly a heavy cultural stress on women in Islam. Though it is said that at the time of the Quran being written, women didn't have much rights and the Prophet (qsssl)* did give them more than they originally had - which is true - nowadays those rights are completely out of date. In Algeria for instance you can still technically divorce by just "repudiating" your wife.

However now, though my mother grew up in a very religious atmosphere, she didn't brought us the same in France. She was clever enough to break the vicious circle. For instance as a kid or teenager, she was never allowed to go outside. Her and her sisters were taken out of school right after Secondary school. They couldn't work and the only right they did have was to accept the husband their parents would find them.

But in France, my mother just did it very differently. She never told me I would have less rights than my brothers did. They had to do an equal share of the chores at home (dish washing, cleaning etc). She always put a stress on the importance for my sister and me to get a degree and a job - which we both did. She always insisted that we should get independent financially before anything, that our career was more important than anything else - she was/is right.
My brothers being raised this way, never considered they had a say in the way I lead my life - so far I used to date an Irish guy, a French guy, even a Jew, they were all always very welcomed in my family. But this is because my parents brought us this way - never tried to forced us in any way when it comes to religion. They explained us the great lines and then, there you go, you can do it or not. One of my brother married a christian French girl. My sister is with a christian guy also.

But in other families, even in France, things are not the same. For instance one of my friend, though she is 27, got a job and a degree, is independent etc, recently had a row with her family about the choice she made regarding her love life. It shows how heavy religion still is in some people's mind.

Now lots of muslim women I know are quite free in France - but I know that the eldest, old fashion, conservative ones - including women - are still having a look at that and will always criticize some stuff (how short is your dress, how you shouldn't be living alone without a husband at your side !, how you should get married instead of getting a job, why aren't you making babies yet ? :mad:, etc...). This is pure bigotry but this is real.

Thus I feel, in western countries such as France, where islam seems more moderate in the way people practice it, it's more an issue of a vicious circle and some remaining from a cultural background that is outdated. Some Muslim families will still raise their children in a way in which they will give preferential treatments to boys. They will be less harsh on them if they act wrong, will interfere a lot less in ther lives etc.
In some Arabic/oriental/Muslim countries, the problem seems two-fold to me :

But the later 2) would mean get them out of the only system they have ever known, with no other references for them in real life (apart from movies/others). The problem here is easy to see : it's like someone who has never see the sea, but you ask them to imagine and describe how it is. Imagine they've never seen it anywhere, neither in books nor on television, how can you expect them to come up with a correct or near correct description? They can't. These women may see what a life with more freedom would be like through western movies : they would not want it as it is being demonized by the male "intelligentsia" in power for instance (it does not serve their interests of course). Women themselves would reject it as I believe they have been conditioned to do, and will never questioned the way they live.

So to sum up :

- when it comes to Western countries : in my opinion there is still some strong bigotry/residues of former cultural background that seem outdated for me. This is slowing down emancipation of women from muslim families, though lots of muslim girls are winning their independence de facto whether people agree with that or not.

- in other countries - this is big generalization of course - women are still being treated badly as a result of both a cultural and religious strong influence, that they themselves help keep in place, and this helps serve the males in power to keep their dominant system.

Wuffly, to get more specific in my answer : I still want to cry out when I see in some countries some separation between women and men...it's just getting on my nerves Or how just being able to drive a car or whatever, is not allowed...really, seriously... .. not talking about more extreme aspects (Charia for instance).

Sorry for the long answer but the issue isn't a simple one

*this is just an abbreviation to : may God have his soul and may him rest in peace. Mandatory when you quote his name and you're muslim...

I tried to keep my english as correct as possible, please tell me if I write something horrendous sorry in advance for mistakes.

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

The RSPCA and BVA are calling for all halal meat to be stunned prior to slaughter in the UK.

The idea, as I understand it, is the animals must be able to hear a prayer as they are killed?

So are there different levels of halal-ness (pardon the expression). Since animals which are stunned before slaughter can be considered halal, are they less acceptable than animals slaughtered without stunning?

I don't think the animal needs to be able to hear the prayer - the prayer just needs to be said as the animal is being killed.

I've come across two opinions on stunning - firstly, the Irish Department of Halal Certification (yes, apparently they exist) say that it cannot be accepted, as the act of stunning itself has many problems (e.g. animals often die during stunning itself, it can cause blood to get into the final meat product, and can potentially cause more physical/psychological trauma to the animal).

Another opinion is that "If it is ascertained that the claim of the experts is correct in that stunning does minimize the suffering of the animal, and also the animal does not die prior to the actual slaughtering, then it would be permissible to use the method of stunning, otherwise impermissible. This of course, is very difficult to determine whilst buying from meat shops, thus one should avoid it totally."

So, I suppose if a halal meat factory can validate that all the stunned animals are not dead before slaughter (and perhaps sell ones that do die to other sources), then it'd be ok. Regarding levels of halal-ness, yeah, there is the concept of "mushbooh" in Islam, literally meaning 'doubtful' or 'suspect,' foods, so either something is Halal beyond reasonable doubt, or Haram (not permissible), or somewhere in between - Mushbooh, and if it is, it should probably still be avoided.

thanks for the detailed response Amilda!

Hi there am doing research on Islam for a project and would be delighted if someone could answer any of these questions about being a Muslim in Ireland.

How do you think Islam is perceived in Ireland and is there any thing you would like to change about this perception?

What are the challenges for Muslims in Ireland?

What do you believe people of other faiths and none could learn from the values of Islam?

How would you like Islam to be represented or taught in Irish schools?

Do you believe enough is being done in Irish society to accommodate Muslim students, in particular in relation to fasting at Ramadan and allowing prayer?

What do you believe are the most important similarities between Islam and Christianity?

mrcounting123 wrote: »

How do you think Islam is perceived in Ireland and is there any thing you would like to change about this perception?

Howdy. That's a difficult question to answer. It's hard to know what people really think, cuz most people who do have negative perceptions probably won't air it in public. Am sure there are a lot of very different perceptions out there, and much of it will depend on what media people follow, and whether they know any Muslims personally. On the whole though, I don't think people at large have a negative perception, but many are probably a bit wary/uncertain, esp. with "radical Islam", "Islamic fundamentalism/extremism", "terrorism" regularly bandied about. Personally, I've never encountered any hostility, nor has anyone else I know (apart from the odd racist remark), and the Irish reputation for being friendly and welcoming is certainly justified. The main perception I would like to change is this media-fuelled notion that Islam inspires these acts of mindless violence.

mrcounting123 wrote: »

What are the challenges for Muslims in Ireland?

Nothing too major, thankfully. Most of us are able to live our lives as we'd mostly like to. The biggest thing that comes to mind is the need for integration into Irish society - I think a lot of us could make more of an effort, both on a local and national level. The more people mingle, the better an understanding that will develop on all sides. Other Muslim-specific issues are things like having access to mosques/prayer rooms, finding halal meat, having access to Islamic lectures, although depending on where you live, there's been a lot of progress in these areas over the past few years.

mrcounting123 wrote: »

What do you believe people of other faiths and none could learn from the values of Islam?

I think it goes both ways. Muslims could learn a lot from non-Muslims as well. Many values of Islam are already a part of western values (whether pre-existing via similar christian/judaism teachings or have filtered through since) - basic common-sense things like it's wrong to murder, steal, lie, take drugs, and one should be good to one's neighbour, one's parents, and maintain personal cleanliness, etc. I think it's important to stress that because much of Islam isn't very different to what we accept as normal, and it's a good place to start from when building bridges. It's hard to define what people of other faiths could learn from Islam, because such matters become very subjective very quickly, and what I might consider better, somebody else might consider very restrictive and a step backwards. I'll throw out a few things nonetheless (and of course they don't apply to every non-Muslim person, because as above, many overlaps already exist).
1) Not being wasteful - whether it's tap water, food, money, or other resources, there's a strong emphasis in Islam to not squander things. This is obviously not only good for the individual, but also for society, depending on the resource in question.
2) Not over-indulging - somewhat along the same lines, this includes not being materialistic (in following your "wants" and not your "needs"), and also with food - Islamically, you should not overeat, and should stop eating before you're full. Given that we're on the cusp of an obesity epidemic with ever-increasing food portions, this one's particularly relevant today.
3) Interest - Islamic forbids usury (which includes interest). People have written long articles on the benefits of Islamic finance, I'm no expert in the field, but I think it's completely non-sensical that most western countries are in a ridiculous amount of debt, with colossal amounts of extra money being handed over in interest to "creditors". If these creditors knew they wouldn't be getting more money back from us than what they were giving us, then they wouldn't give us the money in the first place and even though we might have had a rough time of it initially, we'd be far far better off in the long run.

mrcounting123 wrote: »

How would you like Islam to be represented or taught in Irish schools?

I think the best approach is an interactive discussion with a Muslim speaker(s) attending for a session or two, or a visit to a local mosque. Practically this obviously has it's challenges, and brings me back to Muslims integrating - even doing such things on a voluntary basis. I do feel it's a much better way than reading from a book or coming from a teacher.

mrcounting123 wrote: »

Do you believe enough is being done in Irish society to accommodate Muslim students, in particular in relation to fasting at Ramadan and allowing prayer?

Fasting during Ramadan isn't that much of a biggie and doesn't need accommodating as such - if it's a case that students have very important exams and feel fasting might affect their performance, then they are allowed to not fast on those days and make up for it afterwards. In my experience, most universities are very accommodating of providing prayer rooms for Muslim students.

mrcounting123 wrote: »

What do you believe are the most important similarities between Islam and Christianity?

Both:
- Are monotheistic abrahamic religions.
- Believe in a day of judgement and an afterlife.
- Believe in the virgin birth of Jesus (peace be upon him).
- Believe that Jesus (pbuh) will return close to the day of judgement.
- Share many moral values - many I mentioned above, like it's wrong to murder, steal, lie, eat pork, have pre-marital physical relationships, homosexual relationships, abortion, incest, and one should be good to one's parents, and neighbours.

Many thanks for the reply confusedquark. Really appreciate your thoughts and am very happy to note that your experiences overall have been positive ones!

confusedquark wrote: »

The simple answer would be, we don't conclusively know. In the same way we don't know if prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) made everything up himself, or whether it genuinely was an angel relaying the message of Allah (swt). It's a matter of examining Islam and what it says. One could explore all the reasons why one would suspect it to be the case, and then look at counter arguments as to why it might not be the case (and that would be a lengthy discussion), but ultimately, you can't really prove it either way as such, and it will be a matter of individual belief.

I think the answer to this and most of the exponents of religion relies on David Hume and his critique of miracles...

Which is more likely?

The sun stood still in the heavens...
Lazarus was dead and was brought back to life
An angel dictated the Quran for an illiterate (?) to copy

or, as David Hume would have it, they were made up stories.

I am with Hume on this one.

confusedquark wrote: »

Which is all good and well, and we're entitled to our beliefs, but the problem arises when you add in another "miracle" to the equation.

Which is more likely?
...
The universe created itself

Science and quantum theory have n o problem with that ... miracle? Not by the looks of it.

Is the western media, in particular the Irish media, guilty of a grave omission in failing to report condemnations by Islamic religious leaders of atrocities such as the Boko Haram kidnappings? Do such condemnations not happen?

feargale wrote: »

Is the western media, in particular the Irish media, guilty of a grave omission in failing to report condemnations by Islamic religious leaders of atrocities such as the Boko Haram kidnappings? Do such condemnations not happen?

Howdy, such condemnations certainly do happen. By and large, the western media do have a lot to answer for, but not all the media we're fed is truly independent, and many of them have their own agendas. In part, it has to do with the political views of those in charge and what message they want to broadcast. In part, it has to do with making money - they'll get more ratings by showing extremists, and not so much by showing everyday Muslims doing everyday things, which is what's needed to help foster tolerance and integration, but that's not in their specific interests.

In fairness to RTE, they did show a clip of Malala (the young girl who was shot by the Taliban) condemning Boko Haram and stating that if they actually read the Koran, they wouldn't do what they're doing, and it was a welcome relief to hear that broadcast. That was, of course, after they have been described as an "Islamist" group, a word which is bandied about all too frequently, irrespective of whether a group is actually following Islamic teachings (same goes for Al Qaeda and others), and that fuels a whole lot stereotypes and misconceptions.

(I've copied some of my response from a previous post in this thread, cuz it deals with much of the same issue)

I can't speak for the Irish community as a whole - it hasn't come up in many conversations I've had, but I'll give you my personal opinion.

There's been a lot of concern recently in the British government and media about British Muslims going to fight in Syria, and that they might become all "radicalised" and do all sorts if and when they make it back to Britain. They're right (to an extent) to be mindful, but on the other hand, somebody going to fight a war to overthrow a dictator is a very different thing to that person wanting to harm innocent people in their own country.

My attitude towards somebody going to fight such a war would depend on why they're doing it. If it's a case that they're doing it because they believe they're fighting for the good cause of overthrowing a dictator (which I think the majority probably do), then you'd have to have a lot of respect for anyone (Muslim or not) who would voluntarily put their life at risk for such a cause. You could equally argue that they're fools for getting involved in something that doesn't affect them directly. If people have other motives, such as being adrenaline junkies, being otherwise suicidal, or hoping to acquire skills to carry out terrorist attacks when they get back, then I'd obviously loathe them, but I don't think (and certainly hope not) that many, if any, fit into the latter categories.