Prison and sexual abuse

04-05-2014 11:58AM

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

In the interest of fairness, I've never worked in a female prison so can't comment on that.

Maphisto · 04-05-2014 12:01PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Exactly how is fake tan and eyeliner going to exacerbate anything in Mountjoy? Its not like backstage at the George, you know....

Yeah I'd just buy lube

Mongfinder General · 04-05-2014 12:05PM

I think you just posted that looking for a rise tbh as I don't believe it humanly possible to have such a piss poor understanding of male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence.[/QUOTE]

So Czarcasm, give us your understanding of "male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence."

Littlehorny · 04-05-2014 02:57PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

In the interest of fairness, I've never worked in a female prison so can't comment on that.

Thats the exact answer answer i thought when i asked my question on page one, i heard sexual violence doesn't happen as a rule in Irish prisons. Think the main danger is getting beat up in jail, just like the young fella who was killed in custody which is what the original story is about so i don't know what Lonergan was going off on a tangent, talking about rape between cell mates.
Is it publicity or what he's after.

Maphisto · 04-05-2014 03:13PM

Littlehorny wrote: »

Thats the exact answer answer i thought when i asked my question on page one, i heard sexual violence doesn't happen as a rule in Irish prisons. Think the main danger is getting beat up in jail, just like the young fella who was killed in custody which is what the original story is about so i don't know what Lonergan was going off on a tangent, talking about rape between cell mates.
Is it publicity or what he's after.

Selling newspapers - maybe a nice little book deal in the offing if there's enough interest

Ronin247 · 04-05-2014 03:31PM

I always heard it was just a power thing with prisoners but to be honest I would rather not find out

04-05-2014 03:34PM

Maphisto wrote: »

Selling newspapers - maybe a nice little book deal in the offing if there's enough interest

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

Duck's hoop · 04-05-2014 03:43PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

'Mechanisms of the past'? The extremely recent past? The notoriety surrounding these conditions was not brought about by mere hearsay. And I'm pretty damn sure Lonergan wasn't writing fiction in order to sell more books, despite what some posters seem to be implying.

Isn't it the case that there are often more than a dozen prisoners in a 'holding cell' designed for a quarter that number?

I have spoken at length with 2 prison officers with extensive experience of Mounjoy prison. The depravity of the situation within this prison is shocking to say the least.

Maybe you don't work in Mountjoy. I believe conditions are considerably better in Wheatfield for example. Mainly because of the relative modernity compared to mountjoy.

Frank Lee Midere · 04-05-2014 03:45PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

He comes across as a total spoofer to me. He seems to be lying or greatly exaggerating the sexual abuse in Irish prisons and not understanding the cause if their was any ( most cells now being single occupantcy). Most importantly however he has lived his life like a letter writer to the Guardian, someone outside power criticising it, rather than what he was; someone with power doing nothing about whatever he thought was wrong.

Duck's hoop · 04-05-2014 03:48PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

From all that I've heard from him over the years I'd say his raison d'être is social justice.

He speaks a lot of sense.

And it's no secret there's no love lost between him and the POA.

kumate_champ07 · 04-05-2014 03:52PM

maybe not a gay thing but probably 'bi'

the thought of putting my lad in another mans bum disgusts me, no matter how much I would want to dominate a weaker adversary

you'd need to be a little gay to go thru with it

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

Duck's hoop · 04-05-2014 03:54PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

He comes across as a total spoofer to me. He seems to be lying or greatly exaggerating the sexual abuse in Irish prisons and not understanding the cause if their was any ( most cells now being single occupantcy). Most importantly however he has lived his life like a letter writer to the Guardian, someone outside power criticising it, rather than what he was; someone with power doing nothing about whatever he thought was wrong.

Jesus. He was a prison officer for over 40 years pal. 20 of those spent as governor of one of the most notorious jails in the British Isles.

He CONTINUALLY highlighted the problems and conditions within Mountjoy. To the point where I'm sure the government would gladly have seen him gone.

Frank Lee Midere · 04-05-2014 03:56PM

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Jesus. He was a prison officer for over 40 years pal. 20 of those spent as governor of one of the most notorious jails in the British Isles.

He CONTINUALLY highlighted the problems and conditions within Mountjoy. To the point where I'm sure the government would gladly have seen him gone.

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2014 04:11PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

What, you mean fund and build new priosons and install a santitary system in Mountrjoy?

Duck's hoop · 04-05-2014 04:12PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

In order for him to 'fix' it he needed resources. Money. Funding.

His job as governor was not to start building toilets and extra cells but to manage the prison. The massively overcrowded and very violent prison with a huge population with drug addiction problems.

The fault lies with successive governments who repeatedly failed to address these issues despite Lonergan basically never shutting up about them.

He also often criticised the ridiculous protocol of sending people to an already overcrowded prison for such things as non payment of fines and other nonviolent
offences.

tomwaterford · 04-05-2014 04:12PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

emm because the government wouldn't give him the funds...hence highlighting the issue

Mongfinder General · 04-05-2014 04:24PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

maybe not a gay thing but probably 'bi'

the thought of putting my lad in another mans bum disgusts me, no matter how much I would want to dominate a weaker adversary

you'd need to be a little gay to go thru with it

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

As John Duffy says on the Savage Eye "jayysssus"

Frank Lee Midere · 04-05-2014 04:32PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What, you mean fund and build new priosons and install a santitary system in Mountrjoy?

Yeah. Rather than write letters to the Irish times about how bad things were actually do something about it. He's about as useless as a bank regulator. It was his job as govenor to make sure these things were fixed. Complaining isn't enough.

Amirani · 04-05-2014 04:32PM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

Rape shouldn't happen in prison because nobody deserves to be raped.

_Whimsical_ · 04-05-2014 04:53PM

This isn't just something that happens in jail. It seems to be prevalent in the army too. The Pentagon recently launched an appeal for male victims of sexual assault to come forward and report attacks made on them. They believe over 50% of sexual assaults within the military happen to men by men. That's coming from the following figures :

Officials said they believe the number of male victims is greatly under-reported because of anonymous surveys conducted among military members. A 2012 survey found that about 26,000 service members said they were victims of some type of unwanted sexual contact or assault. A key finding in that survey was that, in sheer numbers, more men than women said they had been assaulted.

About 6.8 percent of women surveyed said they were assaulted and 1.2 percent of the men. But there are vastly more men in the military; by the raw numbers, a bit more than 12,000 women said they were assaulted, compared with nearly 14,000 men.

So really this problem seems to be something that runs deeper than just the prison service inadequacies. It's seems to be something about male dominated environments and power. I would think that tackling it probably requires a reach far outside these institutions and a look at wider societal attitudes to male sexual abuse and male aggression/need for power in some.

It has to be begun to seen as a horrible crime whether against men or women, in or prison or not. There should be no institution of our state where we tolerate it. If we are going to have those standards though we'll have to put our money where our mouth is and increase prison funding to deal with policing of prisoners and the overcrowding that makes these situations more possible.

Duck's hoop · 04-05-2014 04:53PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yeah. Rather than write letters to the Irish times about how bad things were actually do something about it. He's about as useless as a bank regulator. It was his job as govenor to make sure these things were fixed. Complaining isn't enough.

Out of curiosity, how would you have advised him to go about it? Or indeed you yourself, what alternative courses of action would you have followed in order to 'make sure these things were fixed'?

04-05-2014 05:13PM

Duck's hoop wrote: »

'Mechanisms of the past'? The extremely recent past? The notoriety surrounding these conditions was not brought about by mere hearsay. And I'm pretty damn sure Lonergan wasn't writing fiction in order to sell more books, despite what some posters seem to be implying.

Isn't it the case that there are often more than a dozen prisoners in a 'holding cell' designed for a quarter that number?

I have spoken at length with 2 prison officers with extensive experience of Mounjoy prison. The depravity of the situation within this prison is shocking to say the least.

Maybe you don't work in Mountjoy. I believe conditions are considerably better in Wheatfield for example. Mainly because of the relative modernity compared to mountjoy.

With all due respect, you're getting second hand information in that you haven't been on the landings yourself. Now I'm not about to disclose which prison I work in but read between the lines, I know what I'm speaking about.

Nobody is disputing that the changes are recent. They are. The conditions are unrecognisable from when Lonergan left though. 3 of the 4 wings have been completely renovated and are as-new with in cell sanitation. The 4th wing is currently under reconstruction. As I said, all cells are single occupancy in 2014. You can argue about how recent it is but the fact remains. Learn from the past by all means, but if you dwell on it you can never move on from it.

04-05-2014 05:19PM

Sorry, just address the holding cell issue Duck's hoop. The horrendous case of Gary Douche's murder was in a holding cell being used for overnight accommodation. And yes there were far more prisoners held in it than should have been. In fact, no prisoner should have been left in a holding cell overnight. That should never have been the case.

This was in 2006 though. The Irish Prison Service was vilified for that and rightly so. A horrible event for that young man and his family, and for the other prisoners who witnessed it.

No prisoners are to be housed overnight in any holding cell now, under any circumstance.

Duck's hoop · 04-05-2014 05:26PM

Omackeral wrote: »

With all due respect, you're getting second hand information in that you haven't been on the landings yourself. Now I'm not about to disclose which prison I work in but read between the lines, I know what I'm speaking about.

Nobody is disputing that the changes are recent. They are. The conditions are unrecognisable from when Lonergan left though. 3 of the 4 wings have been completely renovated and are as-new with in cell sanitation. The 4th wing is currently under reconstruction. As I said, all cells are single occupancy in 2014. You can argue about how recent it is but the fact remains. Learn from the past by all means, but if you dwell on it you can never move on from it.

Can't really criticise him for speaking and writing about the prison he was managing. The book was published in 2012.

I don't doubt what you're saying with regards to new building etc.

04-05-2014 05:29PM

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how would you have advised him to go about it? Or indeed you yourself, what alternative courses of action would you have followed in order to 'make sure these things were fixed'?

I don't mean to be hogging the thread now but when Lonergan's successor came in, one of his first action was to install a large net over the exercise yard, as contraband was being launched over perimeter walls by associates outside and collected by prisoners in the yard.

Lonergan always had the option to do this but didn't want to obstruct prisoners natural sunlight. The type if net now in use is something like you'd see in a garden centre, let's in all the light. It stopped a steady flow of drugs, weapons and other articles coming over the walls.

That's just one example of something that was done straight after Lonergan's exit. Nothing to do with funding.

Frank Lee Midere · 04-05-2014 05:41PM

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how would you have advised him to go about it? Or indeed you yourself, what alternative courses of action would you have followed in order to 'make sure these things were fixed'?

He was the manager of the place for 20 years. It had a budget. He should have used some of that budget to install toilets. Or fund raised. School principals do the latter. The place is already plumbed. In fact according to wiki new per cell sanitation was added as late as 2012. Which means the latest governor is doing just that in a recession.

It's always better in Irish society to talk the talk rather than walk the walk.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2014 05:45PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

He was the manager of the place for 20 years. It had a budget. He should have used some of that budget to install toilets. Or fund raised. School principals do the latter. The place is already plumbed. In fact according to wiki new per cell sanitation was added as late as 2012. Which means the latest governor is doing just that in a recession.

It's always better in Irish society to talk the talk rather than walk the walk.

Fund raise? For a prison? In Dublin, where msot people think it's bloody holiday camp already? Are you serious?!

It had a budget. Not an endless stream of cash. You do realise that he was the governor of Mountjoy and not the Taosiacht?

04-05-2014 07:07PM

Prison rape is an unacceptable violation of the fundamental human rights that even the most monstrous offender is entitled to. To deny people the right to sexual integrity in prison is as heinious a crime as many of those committed by the prisoners serving time.

Groups dedicated to making the issue of prison rape history are finally making inroads in the US legislature. The Prison Rape Elimination Act went on the books in 2012, ten whole years after the bill was passed. It simply wasn't considered a priority. The numbers of male victims of prison rape in the US, and also SA are astronomical, and while the legislation is in place, local and political will to enforce it and to prosecute the prison staff who turn a blind eye, is weak. The Governer of Texas stated in 2012 that it was 'unrealistic' to meet the targets set out by government to reduce prison rape, to wide public approval.

Anyone who wants to take the moral high ground over American attitudes should consider the responses right here on this forum when a sex crime or child abuse is discussed - there will always be a substantial number of people articulating the wish that the perpetrator undergoes repeated rape and abuse as punishment. The existence of 'superprisons' in the USA uses economies of scale to house prisoners, and it leads to the supervision issues that fosters opportunity for abuses. The numbers of prisoners in the USA is another factor, while the US is home to 5% of the worlds population, it's also home to 15% of the worlds prisoners.

Anyone interested in the issue, and it's horrifying in it's scope, will find further information here;

http://www.justdetention.org/index.aspx

I would take assertions that it's not an issue in Irish prisons with a pinch of salt. Men - especially prisoners, are less likely to report sexual abuse and even less so sexual abuse at the hands of another man. While single cells provide less opportunity for sex crimes to occur, it doesn't equal zero sex crimes. Smaller prisons tend to have more easily employed supervisory systems, further reducing the risk, but I would be sadly confident that there are victims of rape from within the prison system in Ireland, and even one case is one too many.

RDM_83 again · 04-05-2014 07:40PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Male rape has nothing to do with being gay. It's a power thing. Did you really think this?

I have heard this a lot but I have never quiet understood why its considered gospel and it never seems to be accompanied by any studies, its pretty easy to dominate/assert power over somebody without a sexual component, it is about asserting power but isn't also about sex on some level?
Male on Male violence is pretty common and could be considered an expression of dominance, male rape though probably much more common than reported is at a massively lower rate.

Shakespeare's Sister · 04-05-2014 08:21PM

Yeh I'm not convinced when it's said rape (in any context) is only about power and control and domination, and that there is no sexual gratification. Why wouldn't there be an element of the latter (as well as all the other stuff)?
The situation where it may just be about power is when it is used as a weapon of war, but even then, I don't doubt sexual release is *some* bit part of it.

Prison and sexual abuse

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