Prison and sexual abuse

jellyboy

I read this article this morning with John Lonergan

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doubling-up-in-prisons-creating-culture-of-sex-abuse-warns-former-mountjoy-governor-30242066.html

and a lot of questions came to my noggin ..

Should it be ignored by society because of the perception of people who commit crimes?

How do we change society so that we can prevent people being hurt and damaged further by abuse in prisons

I'm guessing that it continues in women's prisons..

What did John Lonergan do about it when he was in charge?

beach_walker

jellyboy wrote: »

Should it be ignored by society because of the perception of people who commit crimes?

Hell no. We're not savages.


I've watched all of Oz. I'm never going to prison man, never.

Holsten

jellyboy wrote: »

I read this article this morning with John Lonergan

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doubling-up-in-prisons-creating-culture-of-sex-abuse-warns-former-mountjoy-governor-30242066.html

and a lot of questions came to my noggin ..

Should it be ignored by society because of the perception of people who commit crimes?

How do we change society so that we can prevent people being hurt and damaged further by abuse in prisons

I'm guessing that it continues in women's prisons..

What did John Lonergan do about it when he was in charge?

Should it be ignored?! What?! Hell no.

Prison is the punishment, loss I your freedom and liberty.

Not gettin victimized by the psychos who life behind the walls.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I read his book "The Governor", I was amazed that they didn't act on his idea to redevelop Mountjoy. Instead they went and bought a site out in the sticks that will never be built on.

Single cells with plumbing is probably the way forward, although maybe slopping out every morning might make one re-evaluate where they are in life.

Prison has to be humane but yet tough, single cells will eradicate the gay rape problem, or else develop a system where gays are identified on entry and housed separate to regular inmates. However at the moment doubling up is a feature of Mountjoy and I'm sure many aren't truthful when disclosing their sexuailty, I'm thinking hashtag Bubba. :pac:

smcgiff

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I read his book "The Governor", I was amazed that they didn't act on his idea to redevelop Mountjoy. Instead they went and bought a site out in the sticks that will never be built on.

Single cells with plumbing is probably the way forward, although maybe slopping out every morning might make one re-evaluate where they are in life.

Prison has to be humane but yet tough, single cells will eradicate the gay rape problem, or else develop a system where gays are identified on entry and housed separate to regular inmates. However at the moment doubling up is a feature of Mountjoy and I'm sure many aren't truthful when disclosing their sexuailty, I'm thinking hashtag Bubba. :pac:

Male rape has nothing to do with being gay. It's a power thing. Did you really think this?

mikemac1

Like the hurler on the ditch he seems to have all the answers now

_Redzer_

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I read his book "The Governor", I was amazed that they didn't act on his idea to redevelop Mountjoy. Instead they went and bought a site out in the sticks that will never be built on.

Single cells with plumbing is probably the way forward, although maybe slopping out every morning might make one re-evaluate where they are in life.

Prison has to be humane but yet tough, single cells will eradicate the gay rape problem, or else develop a system where gays are identified on entry and housed separate to regular inmates. However at the moment doubling up is a feature of Mountjoy and I'm sure many aren't truthful when disclosing their sexuailty, I'm thinking hashtag Bubba. :pac:

It's not a question about being gay. Keep two men in isolation for long enough, like over the course of years, and the majority of them will start having sex to some degree.

I've read a fair bit of prison stories and these things get mentioned. Some make mutual arrangements to get each other off and it's just a prison thing. Sex is sex after all.

Then you have rape, probably brought about sexual frustration in otherwise heterosexual men.

Littlehorny

Is sex abuse in male prisons not very rare in Irish and UK nicks? Thought i read a few inmates from Ireland saying its seems to be more of an American problem in their prisons.

umop.episdn

Rape is about power, when someone is sent to jail, they have their freedom taken from them, they lose their power.
Rape let's certain people regain their feelings of power & control. It has nothing to do with being gay

NipNip

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I read his book "The Governor", I was amazed that they didn't act on his idea to redevelop Mountjoy. Instead they went and bought a site out in the sticks that will never be built on.

Single cells with plumbing is probably the way forward, although maybe slopping out every morning might make one re-evaluate where they are in life.

Prison has to be humane but yet tough, single cells will eradicate the gay rape problem, or else develop a system where gays are identified on entry and housed separate to regular inmates. However at the moment doubling up is a feature of Mountjoy and I'm sure many aren't truthful when disclosing their sexuailty, I'm thinking hashtag Bubba. :pac:

Lol - are you suggesting that the only people who rape fellow inmates are homosexuals?

NipNip

Littlehorny wrote: »

Is sex abuse in male prisons not very rare in Irish and UK nicks? Thought i read a few inmates from Ireland saying its seems to be more of an American problem in their prisons.

I doubt any previously assaulted and/or raped inmate is likely to broadcast it.

humberklog

smcgiff wrote: »

Male rape has nothing to do with being gay. It's a power thing. Did you really think this?

The 2 surely aren't mutually exclusive though. It can be a gay person (repressed or not) using rape as a power thing.

DEFTLEFTHAND

_Redzer_ wrote: »

It's not a question about being gay. Keep two men in isolation for long enough, like over the course of years, and the majority of them will start having sex to some degree.

I've read a fair bit of prison stories and these things get mentioned. Some make mutual arrangements to get each other off and it's just a prison thing. Sex is sex after all.

Then you have rape, probably brought about sexual frustration in otherwise heterosexual men.

If it's consensual between two hetro guys serving long sentences ok. I'm thinking about a guy doing 6 months who gets put in with long termers, especially if he's young and good looking, his 'cellies' could advantage of him. The Prison Officers in Mountjoy laugh at that kind of thing.

smcgiff

humberklog wrote: »

The 2 surely aren't mutually exclusive though. It can be a gay person (repressed or not) using rape as a power thing.

In that instance there's no need to highlight homosexuality as was done. But I take your point.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

..single cells will eradicate the gay rape problem, or else develop a system where gays are identified on entry and housed separate to regular inmates. However at the moment doubling up is a feature of Mountjoy and I'm sure many aren't truthful when disclosing their sexuailty..

Andy Dufresne: I have no enemies here.
Red: Yeah? Wait a while. Word gets around. The Sisters have taken quite a likin' to you. Especially Boggs.
Andy Dufresne: I don't suppose it would help if I told them that I'm not homosexual.
Red: Neither are they. You have to be human first. They don't qualify.

Whispered

It doesn't make sense to segregate gay inmates.

Not all men who rape other men are gay as others have said and then even if people were grouped accordingly, there would still be the issue of rape in both groups. It wouldn't solve anything. That's before even thinking about the ethical concerns of sorting people according to sexual preferences.

fran17

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/jail-tuck-shops-to-offer-hollywood-smiles-and-fake-tan-239799.html

2+2=4

NipNip

So Fran, they're allowed to buy sweets, cigars, brush their teeth and put on make-up if they so wish? What is the world coming to?!!!!

smcgiff

fran17 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/jail-tuck-shops-to-offer-hollywood-smiles-and-fake-tan-239799.html

2+2=4

What's that got to do with anything? Are you surprised female prisoners are buying eyeliner?

NipNip

smcgiff wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything? Are you surprised female prisoners are buying eyeliner?

And sun-screen!!! Good heavens.

youngblood

Littlehorny wrote: »

Is sex abuse in male prisons not very rare in Irish and UK nicks? Thought i read a few inmates from Ireland saying its seems to be more of an American problem in their prisons.

Irish inmates will now be granted condoms on a case by case basis......

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/irish-prisoners-given-condoms-first-3163613

fran17

NipNip wrote: »

So Fran, they're allowed to buy sweets, cigars, brush their teeth and put on make-up if they so wish? What is the world coming to?!!!!

no whatever consenting adults wants to do with themselves along as it is not offending others is there business.however,introducing make up,fake tan,eye liner and Vaseline lotions into a male only prison can only exacerbate any sexual issues that are there already no?

fran17

smcgiff wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything? Are you surprised female prisoners are buying eyeliner?

im sure in the interest of equality these products will be available to all.you wouldn't want to discriminate now

tallus

beach_walker wrote: »

Hell no. We're not savages.


I've watched all of Oz. I'm never going to prison man, never.

I **** you not dude...first time I Saw an episode of Oz I made the same vow.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fran17 wrote: »

no whatever consenting adults wants to do with themselves along as it is not offending others is there business.however,introducing make up,fake tan,eye liner and Vaseline lotions into a male only prison can only exacerbate any sexual issues that are there already no?

Exactly how is fake tan and eyeliner going to exacerbate anything in Mountjoy? Its not like backstage at the George, you know....

smcgiff

fran17 wrote: »

im sure in the interest of equality these products will be available to all.you wouldn't want to discriminate now

That's not 2+2=4 That's 2+2 is possibly 22

Czarcasm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

It's not a question about being gay. Keep two men in isolation for long enough, like over the course of years, and the majority of them will start having sex to some degree.

Ahh now, that's as bad as the "only gay men rape men, and they only rape men" nonsense. It's the stuff of gay porn fantasies tbh.

I've read a fair bit of prison stories and these things get mentioned. Some make mutual arrangements to get each other off and it's just a prison thing. Sex is sex after all.

Sounds like Redzer you've been reading too much "Fifty Shades of Gay" and you're using that as your source material.

Then you have rape, probably brought about sexual frustration in otherwise heterosexual men.

Subtle Redzer, really fcuking subtle - "Sexually frustrated men start raping each other because how else are they gonna get their hole".


I think you just posted that looking for a rise tbh as I don't believe it humanly possible to have such a piss poor understanding of male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence.

fran17

smcgiff wrote: »

That's not 2+2=4 That's 2+2 is possibly 22

exactly what im saying,introducion of such products will only increase the possibility,this is prison at the end of the day.do you want some guys who beat an oap half to death for his/her pension book to be getting sexual pleasures while serving there "sentences" from such products?

_Redzer_

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ahh now, that's as bad as the "only gay men rape men, and they only rape men" nonsense. It's the stuff of gay porn fantasies tbh.





Sounds like Redzer you've been reading too much "Fifty Shades of Gay" and you're using that as your source material.





Subtle Redzer, really fcuking subtle - "Sexually frustrated men start raping each other because how else are they gonna get their hole".


I think you just posted that looking for a rise tbh as I don't believe it humanly possible to have such a piss poor understanding of male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence.

You would single handedly have to be one of the most condescending posters on boards.

crockholm

Being banned by Gordon or Mr.E is one thing,but,if they come around to my house and start fondling me without consent, then I'm telling Zaph.

nc19

beach_walker wrote: »

Hell no. We're not savages.


I've watched all of Oz. I'm never going to prison man, never.

When Mr Echo knocks your man out, bends him over and grabs a handful of grease/lard.....

That scene will be with me forever

Omackeral

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

In the interest of fairness, I've never worked in a female prison so can't comment on that.

Maphisto

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Exactly how is fake tan and eyeliner going to exacerbate anything in Mountjoy? Its not like backstage at the George, you know....

Yeah I'd just buy lube

Mongfinder General

I think you just posted that looking for a rise tbh as I don't believe it humanly possible to have such a piss poor understanding of male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence.[/QUOTE]

So Czarcasm, give us your understanding of "male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence."

Littlehorny

Omackeral wrote: »

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

In the interest of fairness, I've never worked in a female prison so can't comment on that.

Thats the exact answer answer i thought when i asked my question on page one, i heard sexual violence doesn't happen as a rule in Irish prisons. Think the main danger is getting beat up in jail, just like the young fella who was killed in custody which is what the original story is about so i don't know what Lonergan was going off on a tangent, talking about rape between cell mates.
Is it publicity or what he's after.

Maphisto

Littlehorny wrote: »

Thats the exact answer answer i thought when i asked my question on page one, i heard sexual violence doesn't happen as a rule in Irish prisons. Think the main danger is getting beat up in jail, just like the young fella who was killed in custody which is what the original story is about so i don't know what Lonergan was going off on a tangent, talking about rape between cell mates.
Is it publicity or what he's after.

Selling newspapers - maybe a nice little book deal in the offing if there's enough interest

Ronin247

I always heard it was just a power thing with prisoners but to be honest I would rather not find out

Omackeral

Maphisto wrote: »

Selling newspapers - maybe a nice little book deal in the offing if there's enough interest

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

Duck's hoop

Omackeral wrote: »

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

'Mechanisms of the past'? The extremely recent past? The notoriety surrounding these conditions was not brought about by mere hearsay. And I'm pretty damn sure Lonergan wasn't writing fiction in order to sell more books, despite what some posters seem to be implying.

Isn't it the case that there are often more than a dozen prisoners in a 'holding cell' designed for a quarter that number?

I have spoken at length with 2 prison officers with extensive experience of Mounjoy prison. The depravity of the situation within this prison is shocking to say the least.

Maybe you don't work in Mountjoy. I believe conditions are considerably better in Wheatfield for example. Mainly because of the relative modernity compared to mountjoy.

Frank Lee Midere

Omackeral wrote: »

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

He comes across as a total spoofer to me. He seems to be lying or greatly exaggerating the sexual abuse in Irish prisons and not understanding the cause if their was any ( most cells now being single occupantcy). Most importantly however he has lived his life like a letter writer to the Guardian, someone outside power criticising it, rather than what he was; someone with power doing nothing about whatever he thought was wrong.

Duck's hoop

Omackeral wrote: »

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

From all that I've heard from him over the years I'd say his raison d'être is social justice.


He speaks a lot of sense.

And it's no secret there's no love lost between him and the POA.

kumate_champ07

maybe not a gay thing but probably 'bi'

the thought of putting my lad in another mans bum disgusts me, no matter how much I would want to dominate a weaker adversary

you'd need to be a little gay to go thru with it


rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

Duck's hoop

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

He comes across as a total spoofer to me. He seems to be lying or greatly exaggerating the sexual abuse in Irish prisons and not understanding the cause if their was any ( most cells now being single occupantcy). Most importantly however he has lived his life like a letter writer to the Guardian, someone outside power criticising it, rather than what he was; someone with power doing nothing about whatever he thought was wrong.

Jesus. He was a prison officer for over 40 years pal. 20 of those spent as governor of one of the most notorious jails in the British Isles.



He CONTINUALLY highlighted the problems and conditions within Mountjoy. To the point where I'm sure the government would gladly have seen him gone.

Frank Lee Midere

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Jesus. He was a prison officer for over 40 years pal. 20 of those spent as governor of one of the most notorious jails in the British Isles.



He CONTINUALLY highlighted the problems and conditions within Mountjoy. To the point where I'm sure the government would gladly have seen him gone.

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

What, you mean fund and build new priosons and install a santitary system in Mountrjoy?

Duck's hoop

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

In order for him to 'fix' it he needed resources. Money. Funding.

His job as governor was not to start building toilets and extra cells but to manage the prison. The massively overcrowded and very violent prison with a huge population with drug addiction problems.

The fault lies with successive governments who repeatedly failed to address these issues despite Lonergan basically never shutting up about them.

He also often criticised the ridiculous protocol of sending people to an already overcrowded prison for such things as non payment of fines and other nonviolent
offences.

tomwaterford

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

emm because the government wouldn't give him the funds...hence highlighting the issue

Mongfinder General

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

maybe not a gay thing but probably 'bi'

the thought of putting my lad in another mans bum disgusts me, no matter how much I would want to dominate a weaker adversary

you'd need to be a little gay to go thru with it


rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

As John Duffy says on the Savage Eye "jayysssus"

Frank Lee Midere

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What, you mean fund and build new priosons and install a santitary system in Mountrjoy?

Yeah. Rather than write letters to the Irish times about how bad things were actually do something about it. He's about as useless as a bank regulator. It was his job as govenor to make sure these things were fixed. Complaining isn't enough.

Amirani

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

Rape shouldn't happen in prison because nobody deserves to be raped.

_Whimsical_

This isn't just something that happens in jail. It seems to be prevalent in the army too. The Pentagon recently launched an appeal for male victims of sexual assault to come forward and report attacks made on them. They believe over 50% of sexual assaults within the military happen to men by men. That's coming from the following figures :

Officials said they believe the number of male victims is greatly under-reported because of anonymous surveys conducted among military members. A 2012 survey found that about 26,000 service members said they were victims of some type of unwanted sexual contact or assault. A key finding in that survey was that, in sheer numbers, more men than women said they had been assaulted.

About 6.8 percent of women surveyed said they were assaulted and 1.2 percent of the men. But there are vastly more men in the military; by the raw numbers, a bit more than 12,000 women said they were assaulted, compared with nearly 14,000 men.

So really this problem seems to be something that runs deeper than just the prison service inadequacies. It's seems to be something about male dominated environments and power. I would think that tackling it probably requires a reach far outside these institutions and a look at wider societal attitudes to male sexual abuse and male aggression/need for power in some.

It has to be begun to seen as a horrible crime whether against men or women, in or prison or not. There should be no institution of our state where we tolerate it. If we are going to have those standards though we'll have to put our money where our mouth is and increase prison funding to deal with policing of prisoners and the overcrowding that makes these situations more possible.