Prison and sexual abuse

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

In the interest of fairness, I've never worked in a female prison so can't comment on that.

Maphisto

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Exactly how is fake tan and eyeliner going to exacerbate anything in Mountjoy? Its not like backstage at the George, you know....

Yeah I'd just buy lube

Mongfinder General

I think you just posted that looking for a rise tbh as I don't believe it humanly possible to have such a piss poor understanding of male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence.[/QUOTE]

So Czarcasm, give us your understanding of "male on male rape or institutionalised sexual violence."

Littlehorny

Omackeral wrote: »

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

In the interest of fairness, I've never worked in a female prison so can't comment on that.

Thats the exact answer answer i thought when i asked my question on page one, i heard sexual violence doesn't happen as a rule in Irish prisons. Think the main danger is getting beat up in jail, just like the young fella who was killed in custody which is what the original story is about so i don't know what Lonergan was going off on a tangent, talking about rape between cell mates.
Is it publicity or what he's after.

Maphisto

Littlehorny wrote: »

Thats the exact answer answer i thought when i asked my question on page one, i heard sexual violence doesn't happen as a rule in Irish prisons. Think the main danger is getting beat up in jail, just like the young fella who was killed in custody which is what the original story is about so i don't know what Lonergan was going off on a tangent, talking about rape between cell mates.
Is it publicity or what he's after.

Selling newspapers - maybe a nice little book deal in the offing if there's enough interest

Ronin247

I always heard it was just a power thing with prisoners but to be honest I would rather not find out

Maphisto wrote: »

Selling newspapers - maybe a nice little book deal in the offing if there's enough interest

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

Omackeral wrote: »

I work in a Dublin prison and have done for more than 5years. I have never encountered claims of prisoner on prisoner sexual violence. Doesn't seem to be part of the prison culture over here, for want of a better term.

As for the doubling up of cells and 'sloppping out' scenario in Mountjoy that John Lonergan has talked about in his book, both are mechanisms of the past. All cells are now single occupancy with full in cell sanitation ie Toilet and running water.

'Mechanisms of the past'? The extremely recent past? The notoriety surrounding these conditions was not brought about by mere hearsay. And I'm pretty damn sure Lonergan wasn't writing fiction in order to sell more books, despite what some posters seem to be implying.

Isn't it the case that there are often more than a dozen prisoners in a 'holding cell' designed for a quarter that number?

I have spoken at length with 2 prison officers with extensive experience of Mounjoy prison. The depravity of the situation within this prison is shocking to say the least.

Maybe you don't work in Mountjoy. I believe conditions are considerably better in Wheatfield for example. Mainly because of the relative modernity compared to mountjoy.

Omackeral wrote: »

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

He comes across as a total spoofer to me. He seems to be lying or greatly exaggerating the sexual abuse in Irish prisons and not understanding the cause if their was any ( most cells now being single occupantcy). Most importantly however he has lived his life like a letter writer to the Guardian, someone outside power criticising it, rather than what he was; someone with power doing nothing about whatever he thought was wrong.

Omackeral wrote: »

I think John Lonergan's Modus Operandi is prisoners' rights. The man was always fairly lenient on inmates to the point where it seemed he was soft and somewhat of a pushover. He even dedicated his autobiography to the prisoners. In my personal opinion, we would have been much better suited to a Welfare role moreso than a Governor. The current Governor of Mountjoy has a a reputation among staff AND prisoners that he's firm but fair. But now I'm going off topic!

From all that I've heard from him over the years I'd say his raison d'être is social justice.

He speaks a lot of sense.

And it's no secret there's no love lost between him and the POA.

kumate_champ07

maybe not a gay thing but probably 'bi'

the thought of putting my lad in another mans bum disgusts me, no matter how much I would want to dominate a weaker adversary

you'd need to be a little gay to go thru with it

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

He comes across as a total spoofer to me. He seems to be lying or greatly exaggerating the sexual abuse in Irish prisons and not understanding the cause if their was any ( most cells now being single occupantcy). Most importantly however he has lived his life like a letter writer to the Guardian, someone outside power criticising it, rather than what he was; someone with power doing nothing about whatever he thought was wrong.

Jesus. He was a prison officer for over 40 years pal. 20 of those spent as governor of one of the most notorious jails in the British Isles.

He CONTINUALLY highlighted the problems and conditions within Mountjoy. To the point where I'm sure the government would gladly have seen him gone.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Jesus. He was a prison officer for over 40 years pal. 20 of those spent as governor of one of the most notorious jails in the British Isles.

He CONTINUALLY highlighted the problems and conditions within Mountjoy. To the point where I'm sure the government would gladly have seen him gone.

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

What, you mean fund and build new priosons and install a santitary system in Mountrjoy?

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

In order for him to 'fix' it he needed resources. Money. Funding.

His job as governor was not to start building toilets and extra cells but to manage the prison. The massively overcrowded and very violent prison with a huge population with drug addiction problems.

The fault lies with successive governments who repeatedly failed to address these issues despite Lonergan basically never shutting up about them.

He also often criticised the ridiculous protocol of sending people to an already overcrowded prison for such things as non payment of fines and other nonviolent
offences.

tomwaterford

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That was nice. Why didn't he fix it.

emm because the government wouldn't give him the funds...hence highlighting the issue

Mongfinder General

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

maybe not a gay thing but probably 'bi'

the thought of putting my lad in another mans bum disgusts me, no matter how much I would want to dominate a weaker adversary

you'd need to be a little gay to go thru with it

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

As John Duffy says on the Savage Eye "jayysssus"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What, you mean fund and build new priosons and install a santitary system in Mountrjoy?

Yeah. Rather than write letters to the Irish times about how bad things were actually do something about it. He's about as useless as a bank regulator. It was his job as govenor to make sure these things were fixed. Complaining isn't enough.

Amirani

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

rape shouldnt happen in prisons for the simple fact that the perpetrator gets enjoyment out of it, no matter how people feel about criminals deserving bad treatment in prison

Rape shouldn't happen in prison because nobody deserves to be raped.

_Whimsical_

This isn't just something that happens in jail. It seems to be prevalent in the army too. The Pentagon recently launched an appeal for male victims of sexual assault to come forward and report attacks made on them. They believe over 50% of sexual assaults within the military happen to men by men. That's coming from the following figures :

Officials said they believe the number of male victims is greatly under-reported because of anonymous surveys conducted among military members. A 2012 survey found that about 26,000 service members said they were victims of some type of unwanted sexual contact or assault. A key finding in that survey was that, in sheer numbers, more men than women said they had been assaulted.

About 6.8 percent of women surveyed said they were assaulted and 1.2 percent of the men. But there are vastly more men in the military; by the raw numbers, a bit more than 12,000 women said they were assaulted, compared with nearly 14,000 men.

So really this problem seems to be something that runs deeper than just the prison service inadequacies. It's seems to be something about male dominated environments and power. I would think that tackling it probably requires a reach far outside these institutions and a look at wider societal attitudes to male sexual abuse and male aggression/need for power in some.

It has to be begun to seen as a horrible crime whether against men or women, in or prison or not. There should be no institution of our state where we tolerate it. If we are going to have those standards though we'll have to put our money where our mouth is and increase prison funding to deal with policing of prisoners and the overcrowding that makes these situations more possible.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yeah. Rather than write letters to the Irish times about how bad things were actually do something about it. He's about as useless as a bank regulator. It was his job as govenor to make sure these things were fixed. Complaining isn't enough.

Out of curiosity, how would you have advised him to go about it? Or indeed you yourself, what alternative courses of action would you have followed in order to 'make sure these things were fixed'?

Duck's hoop wrote: »

'Mechanisms of the past'? The extremely recent past? The notoriety surrounding these conditions was not brought about by mere hearsay. And I'm pretty damn sure Lonergan wasn't writing fiction in order to sell more books, despite what some posters seem to be implying.

Isn't it the case that there are often more than a dozen prisoners in a 'holding cell' designed for a quarter that number?

I have spoken at length with 2 prison officers with extensive experience of Mounjoy prison. The depravity of the situation within this prison is shocking to say the least.

Maybe you don't work in Mountjoy. I believe conditions are considerably better in Wheatfield for example. Mainly because of the relative modernity compared to mountjoy.

With all due respect, you're getting second hand information in that you haven't been on the landings yourself. Now I'm not about to disclose which prison I work in but read between the lines, I know what I'm speaking about.

Nobody is disputing that the changes are recent. They are. The conditions are unrecognisable from when Lonergan left though. 3 of the 4 wings have been completely renovated and are as-new with in cell sanitation. The 4th wing is currently under reconstruction. As I said, all cells are single occupancy in 2014. You can argue about how recent it is but the fact remains. Learn from the past by all means, but if you dwell on it you can never move on from it.

Sorry, just address the holding cell issue Duck's hoop. The horrendous case of Gary Douche's murder was in a holding cell being used for overnight accommodation. And yes there were far more prisoners held in it than should have been. In fact, no prisoner should have been left in a holding cell overnight. That should never have been the case.

This was in 2006 though. The Irish Prison Service was vilified for that and rightly so. A horrible event for that young man and his family, and for the other prisoners who witnessed it.

No prisoners are to be housed overnight in any holding cell now, under any circumstance.

Omackeral wrote: »

With all due respect, you're getting second hand information in that you haven't been on the landings yourself. Now I'm not about to disclose which prison I work in but read between the lines, I know what I'm speaking about.

Nobody is disputing that the changes are recent. They are. The conditions are unrecognisable from when Lonergan left though. 3 of the 4 wings have been completely renovated and are as-new with in cell sanitation. The 4th wing is currently under reconstruction. As I said, all cells are single occupancy in 2014. You can argue about how recent it is but the fact remains. Learn from the past by all means, but if you dwell on it you can never move on from it.

Can't really criticise him for speaking and writing about the prison he was managing. The book was published in 2012.

I don't doubt what you're saying with regards to new building etc.

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how would you have advised him to go about it? Or indeed you yourself, what alternative courses of action would you have followed in order to 'make sure these things were fixed'?

I don't mean to be hogging the thread now but when Lonergan's successor came in, one of his first action was to install a large net over the exercise yard, as contraband was being launched over perimeter walls by associates outside and collected by prisoners in the yard.

Lonergan always had the option to do this but didn't want to obstruct prisoners natural sunlight. The type if net now in use is something like you'd see in a garden centre, let's in all the light. It stopped a steady flow of drugs, weapons and other articles coming over the walls.

That's just one example of something that was done straight after Lonergan's exit. Nothing to do with funding.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how would you have advised him to go about it? Or indeed you yourself, what alternative courses of action would you have followed in order to 'make sure these things were fixed'?

He was the manager of the place for 20 years. It had a budget. He should have used some of that budget to install toilets. Or fund raised. School principals do the latter. The place is already plumbed. In fact according to wiki new per cell sanitation was added as late as 2012. Which means the latest governor is doing just that in a recession.

It's always better in Irish society to talk the talk rather than walk the walk.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

He was the manager of the place for 20 years. It had a budget. He should have used some of that budget to install toilets. Or fund raised. School principals do the latter. The place is already plumbed. In fact according to wiki new per cell sanitation was added as late as 2012. Which means the latest governor is doing just that in a recession.

It's always better in Irish society to talk the talk rather than walk the walk.

Fund raise? For a prison? In Dublin, where msot people think it's bloody holiday camp already? Are you serious?!

It had a budget. Not an endless stream of cash. You do realise that he was the governor of Mountjoy and not the Taosiacht?