Who is the one true king (or queen) of Westeros? SPOILERS!!!

Kunkka · 01-05-2014 07:56AM

A Neurotic wrote: »

This is exactly the reason I stopped reading the books after Clash of Kings. (I returned and read the others about a year later).

By the end of book 2, all I saw was a bunch of power hungry men causing untold misery for the country by deciding they wanted the stupid throne. Couldn't sympathise with any of them.

Wait a second, Stannis was just doing his duty and taking what was his by right!

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 06:04PM

username123 wrote: »

I'm confused about this.

If we accept that you can take the throne through defeat in battle (ie, Robert Baratheon was a legitimate king), then I think the current true king is Tommen. I say this because if defeat in battle is legitimate, then Joffrey beat Stannis in battle, thus legitimising his own claim, and his next in line is Tommen.

Alternatively if we don't accept that defeat in battle is legitimate, then the current true king is Aegon Targaryen, if of course he really is who he says he is.

Tommen has no blood claim to throne; he is the product of Cersei's affair with Jaime and not from her marriage to King Robert (who transmits the claim by right). Meaning, that Stannis is the true King and all he must do is claim by conquest. Danaerys is in a similar situation, she has the blood claim, but must claim by conquest.

Stannis FTW, btw. Ours if the Fury, and all that.

FunLover18 · 02-05-2014 06:06PM

Defeat in battle = dead or surrendered.

Stannis is neither.

NickD · 02-05-2014 06:59PM

OK I know this is just a theory, but bear with me, what if Danys wins the iron throne through a combination of dragons and unsullied and to a lesser extent former-slave army, and if she were to marry Jon Snow (I don't know how this would happen, that's not important) and they could both rule! See cos it's a song of Ice and Fire, and really Jon is the only viable Stark son, and if he were to marry a queen it wouldn't matter that he was a bastard......would it?

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 07:26PM

NickD wrote: »

OK I know this is just a theory, but bear with me, what if Danys wins the iron throne through a combination of dragons and unsullied and to a lesser extent former-slave army, and if she were to marry Jon Snow (I don't know how this would happen, that's not important) and they could both rule! See cos it's a song of Ice and Fire, and really Jon is the only viable Stark son, and if he were to marry a queen it wouldn't matter that he was a bastard......would it?

You're forgetting Rickon. But, I get what you mean.

I think there's a lot more to this "Ice and Fire" than just Dany and Jon, though. Much more deeply embedded in the story and back story. Also, if the popular theory proves true

that Jon is the love child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, that makes Dany Jon's aunt

it could also cause problems. I'm using spoiler tags just to be safe. I think it's a bit of a red herring, tbh.

NickD · 02-05-2014 07:29PM

Rickon is boring though!! And I know it's totally unlikely and really improbable but a girl can dream.

Sigh.....................All hail King Stannis, the first of his name etc, etc, etc.

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 07:36PM

NickD wrote: »

Rickon is boring though!! And I know it's totally unlikely and really improbable but a girl can dream.

Sigh.....................All hail King Stannis, the first of his name etc, etc, etc.

Yes, Rickon is a rubbish character so far. But he wouldn't have been included unless he has a point and arc. I wonder what GRRM will do with him. Will he be the one to rebuild Winterfell, perhaps?

Using spoiler tags again. However.....

If R+L=J does prove true and, let's just speculate that R+J were secretly married (its's feasible given how long she was held "captive" for) Jon would have a legitimate claim to the throne in his own right. Given Targ history of brothers marrying sisters to keep the blood of the dragon pure, would incest between an Aunt and her nephew be so strange within the context of the story?

NickD · 02-05-2014 07:44PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Yes, Rickon is a rubbish character so far. But he wouldn't have been included unless he has a point and arc. I wonder what GRRM will do with him. Will he be the one to rebuild Winterfell, perhaps?

Using spoiler tags again. However.....
If R+L=J does prove true and, let's just speculate that R+J were secretly married (its's feasible given how long she was held "captive" for) Jon would have a legitimate claim to the throne in his own right. Given Targ history of brothers marrying sisters to keep the blood of the dragon pure, would incest between an Aunt and her nephew be so strange within the context of the story?

I have no idea how to do that spoiler thing

yes, this theory is perfect! Let's call George RR immediately and tell him he should do it ( God I am so serious)

Rickon can have Winterfell!

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 07:53PM

NickD wrote: »

I have no idea how to do that spoiler thing yes, this theory is perfect! Let's call George RR immediately and tell him he should do it ( God I am so serious)

Rickon can have Winterfell!

Spoiler tags: [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] (remove the spaces).

There is a lot of very strong evidence for R+L=J and some fans have uploaded vast, intricately detailed analysis of the theory in various places. I really, really hope it's true. The only reason I keep my squee-ing in check is because it seems far too obvious for GRRM. It reeks of red herring.

NickD · 02-05-2014 08:00PM

Think I have figured out the spoiler tags

What if

Jon is Robert's bastard with Ned's sister and Ned brought Jon home to spare her memory. Now, there is no major evidence for this, but in the books Lyanna finds out that Robert has a bastard daughter and says he 'could never keep one to a bed' which kind of implies that she is sleeping with him too. Then some time later, it's never specified how long, she is kidnapped by Tagaryen. The only other things that can be even considered close to hints is that all the Baretheons are born 'black of hair,' whereas the Targaryens are 'Silver of hair' add that to Ned's sense of honor and loyalty I don't think it is inconceivable that Jon is half Baretheon and half Stark. He can totally marry Danys then, and has a half decent claim to the throne himself

Edited for added details, Jon Arryn fostered both Eddard Stark and Robert Baretheon as boys, perhaps Jon Snow was named after him?

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 08:12PM

NickD wrote: »

Think I have figured out the spoiler tags

What if
Jon is Robert's bastard with Ned's sister and Ned brought Jon home to spare her memory. Now, there is no major evidence for this, but in the books Lyanna finds out that Robert has a bastard daughter and says he 'could never keep one to a bed' which kind of implies that she is sleeping with him too. Then some time later, it's never specified how long, she is kidnapped by Tagaryen. The only other things that can be even considered close to hints is that all the Baretheons are born 'black of hair,' whereas the Targaryens are 'Silver of hair' add that to Ned's sense of honor and loyalty I don't think it is inconceivable that Jon is half Baretheon and half Stark. He can totally marry Danys then, and has a half decent claim to the throne himself

This has been conjectured. However, Lyanna was under the protection of Aerys for a year. If (as seems likely) she died in childbirth the dates don't fit; Ned arrived on the scene just as the child bed fever was killing her (historical cases of childbed fever took no more than a week to kill). Jon is said to take after the Starks, with comparisons to Arya who is also the only one of Catelyn's children to inherit the Stark looks. Then there's the further evidence of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the Queen of Beauty and all the other circumstantial stuff. She could easily have gone with Rhaegar of her own free will.

Mickeroo · 02-05-2014 08:15PM

Robert is the only person who speaks negatively of Rhaegar and refers to it as a kidnapping from what I remember.

NickD · 02-05-2014 08:16PM

@Ladyspangles,I think you are right, I just don't trust George RR anymore!

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 08:28PM

Nope, me neither! GRRM just loves pulling the rug out from under everyone's feet.

@Mickeroo: You're absolutely right. Although his father's cruelty has been verified by several people, everyone seems to speak highly of Rhaegar. Ser Baristan for one, and hadn't he joined Robert by the time of the Trident? Not sure about that, though.

Da Shins Kelly · 02-05-2014 08:39PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

You're forgetting Rickon. But, I get what you mean.

I think there's a lot more to this "Ice and Fire" than just Dany and Jon, though. Much more deeply embedded in the story and back story. Also, if the popular theory proves true
that Jon is the love child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, that makes Dany Jon's aunt
it could also cause problems. I'm using spoiler tags just to be safe. I think it's a bit of a red herring, tbh.

Does Bran not come before Rickon? I'm still holding out hope that the Starks will make a glorious comeback under the guidance of Bran. Danaerys has to lose control of those dragons, and perhaps it will be Bran who will take them out from under her with his mind-bending abilities! Or perhaps she will join forces with the remaining Starks, Jon Snow included. She'll have to form an alliance somewhere once she gets to Westeros. If the rest of the North get wind that the Stark children are alive, the Boltons and the Freys are going to have a job holding onto power up there, as Roose Bolton (I think) said in a previous episode. If the Starks get the North behind them, and Danaerys arrives looking for an ally, they might team up?

I just want the remaining Starks to have their vengeance!

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 08:47PM

Yes, Bran is well on his way to becoming a Greenseer, and there has to be a reason why he has those abilities. There's every possibility that he will be able to warg into one of Dany's dragons (he can warg into Hodor, ffs!). To be Lord of Winterfell and hold the North, Bran would need the use of his legs. He could administrate, while Rickon does all the troop rallying etc and make it a team effort, I guess. The Starks are seriously due for some major revenge, though. But the same is true of Dany. Her entire family was massacred (with the exception of her crazy brother and one possible pretender), with even the babies having their brains dashed out. It would be amazing if the Targs and Starks could join forces (and it could happen if Jon turns out to have Targaryen blood). The Dragon has three heads, after all.

Da Shins Kelly · 02-05-2014 08:59PM

Was he not considered Lord of Winterfell for a short time after Robb left and just before Theon Greyjoy arrived and decided to stage their murders?

Witcher · 02-05-2014 09:02PM

He was but Bran will never have kids so he can't further the line, the lordship will pass to Rickon.

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 09:02PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Was he not considered Lord of Winterfell for a short time after Robb left and just before Theon Greyjoy arrived and decided to stage their murders?

Oh yes, I forgot about that. But he was only carrying out administration duties, IIRC. But Theon's storming of Winterfell proved just how vulnerable Brand would be as sole Lord of the North.

Da Shins Kelly · 02-05-2014 09:05PM

I see. It's confusing. They all call him a "little lord" and stuff like that, so I wasn't sure whether the power would just go to him anyway, regardless of whether he can walk or not. I'd imagine in the case of the title going to Rickon, Bran would be essentially making a lot of decisions anyway though? He seems to have some leadership qualities, not to mention having potentially very potent magical abilities.

Da Shins Kelly · 02-05-2014 09:10PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Oh yes, I forgot about that. But he was only carrying out administration duties, IIRC. But Theon's storming of Winterfell proved just how vulnerable Brand would be as sole Lord of the North.

I guess he was kind of vulnerable anyway at that point since he didn't have an army or anything around him really. He was just kind of left in Winterfell to hold the fort and was just learning the ropes of being a lord when Theon came. The Starks probably didn't expect Theon to betray them, if anything he would have been expected to offer protection to Bran. Should news of Bran's survival spread, he might have an easier job rounding people up to support him in the aftermath of all that's happened. He could never be an army commander though, I guess, like Robb was. He'd definitely need someone else to look after that side of things.

What about Catelyn Stark's uncle? He escaped the Red Wedding, didn't he? Which means that he is technically still in control of Riverrun despite what Walder Frey is saying? Could he potentially be instrumental to what happens with the remaining Starks?

FunLover18 · 02-05-2014 09:13PM

Lady Spangles wrote: »

Yes, Bran is well on his way to becoming a Greenseer, and there has to be a reason why he has those abilities. There's every possibility that he will be able to warg into one of Dany's dragons (he can warg into Hodor, ffs!). To be Lord of Winterfell and hold the North, Bran would need the use of his legs. He could administrate, while Rickon does all the troop rallying etc and make it a team effort, I guess. The Starks are seriously due for some major revenge, though. But the same is true of Dany. Her entire family was massacred (with the exception of her crazy brother and one possible pretender), with even the babies having their brains dashed out. It would be amazing if the Targs and Starks could join forces (and it could happen if Jon turns out to have Targaryen blood). The Dragon has three heads, after all.

The difference being that I have absolutely no sympathy for either Dany or any of the Targaryens

Lady Spangles · 02-05-2014 09:21PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I guess he was kind of vulnerable anyway at that point since he didn't have an army or anything around him really. He was just kind of left in Winterfell to hold the fort and was just learning the ropes of being a lord when Theon came. The Starks probably didn't expect Theon to betray them, if anything he would have been expected to offer protection to Bran. Should news of Bran's survival spread, he might have an easier job rounding people up to support him in the aftermath of all that's happened. He could never be an army commander though, I guess, like Robb was. He'd definitely need someone else to look after that side of things.

What about Catelyn Stark's uncle? He escaped the Red Wedding, didn't he? Which means that he is technically still in control of Riverrun despite what Walder Frey is saying? Could he potentially be instrumental to what happens with the remaining Starks?

True, to be fair. Catelyn warned Robb about letting Theon return to the Iron Islands, too.

And yes, Uncle Tully (the Black Fish) is still alive. I don't know how they're going to handle it on the show, but (in the books at least) so is Edmure Tully and his bride.

the Freys make him stand out on the castle ramparts every day, with a noose around his neck. He's eventually released after Riverrun is surrendered

There's some hope for House Tully yet.

Da Shins Kelly · 02-05-2014 09:25PM

I guess Robb's decision to send Theon back to the Iron Islands was one of his many bad judgement calls.

It'd be cool to see a bit more of the Tullys and what they're going to do.

Sleepy · 06-05-2014 08:59AM

Rickon couldn't be lord of Winterfell ahead of Bran unless Bran never returns from North of the Wall. We see through

Doran Martell and his gout ridden body

that one doesn't need to be physically capable in order to rule. While he may not be able to produce children (no certainty, paraplegics sometimes can), he would nominate his heir (presumably Rickon).

Da Shins Kelly · 06-05-2014 02:51PM

Yeah, presumably the Lordship would just pass to Rickon/Rickon's children after Bran dies (if Bran is actually incapable of having children)? I mean, technically Robert Baratheon didn't have any children, which has made Stannis the rightful heir in his absence.

Tzar Chasm · 06-05-2014 03:30PM

Blay wrote: »

Like Aegon I stole the kingdoms of the Reach, Rock, North etc. from their rightful kings when he came?

Both were by right of conquest. At least Robert's was a popular rebellion, Aegon just threatened to put everyone to the sword.

Have to pull you up on this one, Aegon unified the seven kingdoms, in the years BL there were 7 squabbling kingdoms, one suck king invited Aegon and his dragons to subdue one of his rivals, but Aegon saw the big picture and decided enough was enough, the realm needed unity to prosper.

so aegon created the crown and Iron throne, he didnt steal anything

Zillah · 06-05-2014 03:44PM

There's no such thing as a right to rule. Rule tends to pass from parent to child, until someone is strong enough to take it for themselves. It's that simple. Stannis only has a right because his brother used force to take the throne from the Targaryens. The Targaryens only had the throne because they conquered those who came before them.

There are no rights. There are no true Kings. That's the whole point.

Witcher · 06-05-2014 04:27PM

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

Have to pull you up on this one, Aegon unified the seven kingdoms, in the years BL there were 7 squabbling kingdoms, one suck king invited Aegon and his dragons to subdue one of his rivals, but Aegon saw the big picture and decided enough was enough, the realm needed unity to prosper.

so aegon created the crown and Iron throne, he didnt steal anything

He deposed six kings. Doesn't matter that his intentions were good. He took their thrones by right of conquest.

Tzar Chasm · 06-05-2014 05:06PM

Blay wrote: »

He deposed six kings. Doesn't matter that his intentions were good. He took their thrones by right of conquest.

He saw a kingdom torn apart by petty squabbles and said, enough of this snit.

bear in mind that the targaryans lived on dragonstone for generations and paid no mind to the issues of westeros, it was only when the 'kings' tried to recruit the targaryan dragons that aegon took matters into his own hands

Who is the one true king (or queen) of Westeros? SPOILERS!!!

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