Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Who is the one true king (or queen) of Westeros? SPOILERS!!!

Options
24

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Nimrod 7 wrote: »
    Joffrey hardly won the Iron Throne by conquest over Stannis through just one battle. And Joffrey won the battle while sitting on Stannis' Iron Throne.

    If Stannis was crowned after Robert and the Joffrey arrived with an army, defeated Stannis' army and killed Stannis - that's right of conquest.

    He repelled an effort by Stannis to claim his rightful throne. I don't see how that's right of conquest.

    Joffrey was already crowned and defeated an attack on his throne.


  • Options
    #33
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,151 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    You can't achieve a conquest of something if you already have it. The whole incest/being a bastard thing is what messes up Joffrey's/Tommen's claim imo.


  • Options
    #34
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    You can't achieve a conquest of something if you already have it. The whole incest/being a bastard thing is what messes up Joffrey's/Tommen's claim imo.

    Why, Aegon Targaryen I was married to his sisters and no one disputed his sons incestuous claim to the throne - nor any of the Targaryens since, including The Last Dragon, Rhaegar Targaryen whose parents were also siblings.

    If Joffreys bastardiness was legitimised by Jaime marrying Cersei would you accept his claim?


  • Options
    #35
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,151 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    You can't achieve a conquest of something if you already have it. The whole incest/being a bastard thing is what messes up Joffrey's/Tommen's claim imo.
    I'm not so sure. Were Tommen to kill / force Stannis (and Euron?) to bend the knee and accept him as rightful king, he'd have taken it by right of force since at present his claim is illegitimate. Only the other claimants giving up their claims or the accordance of all the other great houses after the defeat of the other claimants "legitimizes" his claim.

    As long as Barratheon remains in the field, the throne is still "rightfully" his imo.


  • Options
    #36
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,151 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    username123 wrote: »
    Why, Aegon Targaryen I was married to his sisters and no one disputed his sons incestuous claim to the throne - nor any of the Targaryens since, including The Last Dragon, Rhaegar Targaryen whose parents were also siblings.

    If Joffreys bastardiness was legitimised by Jaime marrying Cersei would you accept his claim?

    The key difference though is the Targs openly practised incest (presumably even before they conquered Westeros) so it could never be used against them because they make the rules after heir conquest. Joff/Tommen don't even know they're bastards born of incest, if it came to light there would be uproar. It's not like with like.

    Even apart from the whole incest/bastard thing you also have the fact Jaimie was Kingsguard to Robert when the children were conceived and still is Kingsguard, it's a betrayal not far below par with when he killed the Mad King.
    Also I'm pretty sure, even though Kings are seemingly allowed to have bastards all over the place I'm pretty sure it's not acceptable for Queens to do the same (speculation on my part).

    If they somehow legitimised the Lannister children then fair enough but I'm not sure how they can go about it and since they are not legitimised at his moment they do not have a rightful claim to the throne imo.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,151 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I'm not so sure. Were Tommen to kill / force Stannis (and Euron?) to bend the knee and accept him as rightful king, he'd have taken it by right of force since at present his claim is illegitimate. Only the other claimants giving up their claims or the accordance of all the other great houses after the defeat of the other claimants "legitimizes" his claim.

    As long as Barratheon remains in the field, the throne is still "rightfully" his imo.

    Yeah if Stannis and co bent the knee then it would be a pretty legitimate claim but again the whole incest thing would be a real spanner in the works if it ever came to light (and there's no way Stannis would ever bend the knee because he's aware of it imo).


  • Options
    #38
    Kunkka
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Kunkka


    It's simple, Robert won the previous war for the throne and instilled the Baratheon name to the throne by right of conquest. His kids then come next in line but because "his" children with Cersei are Jaime's they have no right to the throne. So the next in line would be Stannis as the Baratheon(not Lannister) name is what is now tied to the throne.


  • Options
    #39
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Great discussion all, Im really glad I brought this up.


  • Options
    #40
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Kunkka wrote: »
    It's simple, Robert won the previous war for the throne and instilled the Baratheon name to the throne by right of conquest. His kids then come next in line but because "his" children with Cersei are Jaime's they have no right to the throne. So the next in line would be Stannis as the Baratheon(not Lannister) name is what is now tied to the throne.

    Of course, the incest can never be proven, its not like they can do DNA testing.


  • Options
    #41
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,151 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    username123 wrote: »
    Of course, the incest can never be proven, its not like they can do DNA testing.

    That's true, even Ned just deduced it from Jon Arryn's (I think?) letter and how all Barratheon children have had dark hair. Though that probably be enough to convince a lot of people with a vested interest in overthrowing the Lannisters I'm sure.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Kunkka
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Kunkka


    username123 wrote: »
    Of course, the incest can never be proven, its not like they can do DNA testing.

    True, however Cersei might come clean in her upcoming trial who knows...

    Tyrion knows the kids are Jaime & Cersei's I'm sure so he could also spill the beans.


  • Options
    #43
    lynski
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    The proof of the incest is in Gendry, this is why he was in danger, but is there even anyone alive who knows this?

    Accepting that the Baratheon Children are the heirs, would the remaining Baratheons not be the legitimate regents?

    If Stannis was named king, is divorce allowed in Westeros? as he would need an heir and his wife is not exactly good at producing children.


  • Options
    #44
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    username123 wrote: »
    If we are not accepting children born of incest as legitimate heirs to the throne surely that immediately discounts pretty much the entire Targaryen line?

    I think the point was bastards born of incest. The Targaryen monarchs were legitimate because their parents were married. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella, on the other hand, were not the offspring of Cersei and Robert, but rather Cersei and Jaime.


  • Options
    #45
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    The Battle of Blackwater was just that, a battle. And Stannis survived and remains alive, unconquered, and unwilling to give up his rightful claim.

    He is the true king!!


  • Options
    #46
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    lynski wrote: »
    The proof of the incest is in Gendry, this is why he was in danger, but is there even anyone alive who knows this?

    Accepting that the Baratheon Children are the heirs, would the remaining Baratheons not be the legitimate regents?

    If Stannis was named king, is divorce allowed in Westeros? as he would need an heir and his wife is not exactly good at producing children.

    The incest isn't even really a factor anymore, Stannis has already informed everyone of that and people have chosen their sides. The endgame will be decided by whoever can seize the throne and hold it, the rights and wrongs of it all have gone out the window really. Stannis is the legitimate heir but the Lannisters aren't going to turn the throne over to him just because of that.

    There are only 2 Baratheon's left; Stannis and Shireen. If Stannis actually takes the throne and later dies; Shireen becomes queen, the rule is all male heirs before any females. There are no males left to skip the line of succession so it would be her.


  • Options
    #47
    Kunkka
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Kunkka


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    The Battle of Blackwater was just that, a battle. And Stannis survived and remains alive, unconquered, and unwilling to give up his rightful claim.

    He is the true king!!

    Here here

    Anyone that thinks otherwise will be destroyed!


  • Options
    #48
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I think the point was bastards born of incest. The Targaryen monarchs were legitimate because their parents were married. Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella, on the other hand, were not the offspring of Cersei and Robert, but rather Cersei and Jaime.

    Yes. And as Cersei's only link to the throne was as the wife of Robert, her children would never have had any claim even if she married Jaime and legitimised them as Lannisters.


  • Options
    #49
    Tzar Chasm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    Heres a scenario

    the brotherhood without banners go on a recruitment drive, convincing the population of the merits in their egalatarian system.

    littlefinger sees the writing on the wall and embraces the notion of a democratic republic, which also serves to dissuade dany from conquest, as the people would already be free from tyrany, the iron bank becomes annoyed with stannis and removes further funding, csusing him to die in the snow

    Elections are held with littlefinger and davos as the frontrunners, however a massive swell in the northern population leads to the election of a surprise third candidate

    President Thormund Giantsbane


  • Options
    #50
    orchidsrpretty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭orchidsrpretty


    I believe Melisandre will join forces with Daenarys, or is it that too obvious? And if she does could she heal her so that Dany may bear children once more? Warging dragons is interesting, iirc Bran was told he would never walk again but he will fly?


  • Options
    #51
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    orchidsrpretty wrote: »
    I believe Melisandre will join forces with Daenarys, or is it that too obvious? And if she does could she heal her so that Dany may bear children once more? Warging dragons is interesting, iirc Bran was told he would never walk again but he will fly?
    Yes he was told that.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Nerdlingr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Nerdlingr


    orchidsrpretty wrote: »
    I believe Melisandre will join forces with Daenarys, or is it that too obvious? And if she does could she heal her so that Dany may bear children once more? Warging dragons is interesting, iirc Bran was told he would never walk again but he will fly?

    Did he not do that already in the first episode?! :P


  • Options
    #53
    Kunkka
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Kunkka


    1010887_451436771669504_1445687367618138578_n.jpg

    **** y'all :)


  • Options
    #54
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    I don't even think there can be any debate. The true and rightful king of the seven kingdoms is Stannis Baratheon, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.
    That's not to say thats who I want to be King or who I'd support. But by right, the Iron Throne is his.


  • Options
    #55
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    but that's only because his brother stole the thrown from the previous "rightful king", it's ridiculous

    there is no such thing as a rightful king or queen, monarchy is about power and nothing else. whoever wears the crown and calls the shots is the king/queen, however they got there.


  • Options
    #56
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »
    but that's only because his brother stole the thrown from the previous "rightful king", it's ridiculous

    Like Aegon I stole the kingdoms of the Reach, Rock, North etc. from their rightful kings when he came?

    Both were by right of conquest. At least Robert's was a popular rebellion, Aegon just threatened to put everyone to the sword.


  • Options
    #57
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »
    but that's only because his brother stole the thrown from the previous "rightful king", it's ridiculous

    there is no such thing as a rightful king or queen, monarchy is about power and nothing else. whoever wears the crown and calls the shots is the king/queen, however they got there.

    Robert's Rebellion deposed the previous rightful king by way of conquest. Stannis is entitled to that throne by way of inheritance. Until he is killed in battle, or loses the war and gives up his claim to the throne, then he is without question the rightful King.


  • Options
    #58
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    Blay wrote: »
    Like Aegon I stole the kingdoms of the Reach, Rock, North etc. from their rightful kings when he came?

    .

    exactly, so there is no rightful king. There can't be, it's a contradiction in terms. It's just one wanker after another with an army and powerful backers.


  • Options
    #59
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,472 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Yeah true,

    I thought you said powerful knackers for a second there at the end:pac:


  • Options
    #60
    A Neurotic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭A Neurotic


    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »
    exactly, so there is no rightful king. There can't be, it's a contradiction in terms. It's just one wanker after another with an army and powerful backers.

    This is exactly the reason I stopped reading the books after Clash of Kings. (I returned and read the others about a year later).

    By the end of book 2, all I saw was a bunch of power hungry men causing untold misery for the country by deciding they wanted the stupid throne. Couldn't sympathise with any of them.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,078 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    A Neurotic wrote: »
    This is exactly the reason I stopped reading the books after Clash of Kings. (I returned and read the others about a year later).

    By the end of book 2, all I saw was a bunch of power hungry men causing untold misery for the country by deciding they wanted the stupid throne. Couldn't sympathise with any of them.
    You think/thought Stannis is power hungry? First time I've seen him called that I think. Robb Stark could hardly be described as so. Tywin Lannister was obsessed with the illusion of power more than power itself itself I think and Balon Greyjoy was just a prick. Very simplistic (and wrong imo) way to describe the dynamic.


Advertisement