Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books

bopper · 22-04-2014 11:10pm

Liam O wrote: »

I think everything ties into my problems with how conspicuous the show is in relation to the books. It stifles multiple theories which is one of the best parts of the books. Yes, Renly and Loras were probably gay but you might not pick up on that in the books and having scenes explicitly showing that devalues the show imo, makes it acceptable in a world where Loras' character is written off as a "pillowbiter" and devalued because it's pretty much known in the show universe because it's so obvious that they're gay whereas in the books there is still reasonable doubt which is why Renly is allowed to get away with being gay. I can't see Oberyn acting the way he does in the show and being able to avoid a similar writing off and feel it's shoehorned in for this reason, because it's not consistent with his character.

Loras is devalued by the Lannisters because they devalue his whole family. Yet Tywin still insists on him marrying Cersei, and Jamie is quite clearly threatened by him, so they don't obviously see him as being that "weak". He is shown to have a lot of respect and admiration from many of the other characters. So was Renly, he was a King fgs! Brienne also would have died for him. Oberyn is showing so signs of being written off for "acting the way he does", and I really don't see how him sleeping with men is not consistent with his character!! Especially as it's said in the book that he sleeps with men. Unless you think you need to act a certain way to be allowed to sleep with men.

I think the show would devalue the books more if it completely ignored all suggestions of Loras and Renly's relationship, and Oberyn's bisexuality, and portrayed a world where gay men don't exist (but where lesbian sex is frequent). The book never says anything about homosexuality being outlawed so I don't see how it makes more sense for the show suddenly declare it's a weakness and not allowed.

Witcher · 22-04-2014 11:21pm

When you're as dangerous as Oberyn Martell you can shag what you like.

Sulla Felix · 23-04-2014 12:28am

Blay wrote: »

When you're as dangerous as Oberyn Martell you can shag what you like.

That's kind of what I took from the books.

martingriff · 23-04-2014 12:33am

GerB40 wrote: »

I've done a bit of research and apparently they replaced Cersei & Jaimes "reunion" (where they ride over their dead sons corpse while she's on the blob) with a scene where Jaime rapes her over Joffs corpse. The book scene was fairly fúckin rank and by the sound of it, the tv version is pretty fúcked up too.
I'm just confused as to why they would make Jaime a rapist when he risked his life to save Brienne from a gang rape...

I have just seen the scene was tamer than what I was expecting given what I was hearing but still cringe. I think the who point of the scene I think is that by that point him and Cersei have fallen out and he wants to see if there is any spark left and then when she enjoys it he realises they have no morals and it horrified with himself.

I think saving Brienne was about honour and showing he has some chivirally I don't think it was meant to be the start of his redemption as him leaving (after the rape/sex scene) to be the kings peace and to not take up arms like he said he would. Giving Brienne the sword made out of Ice was the start.

martingriff · 23-04-2014 12:38am

Blay wrote: »

I can see the non readers becoming really pissed off with Dany and even being turned off the show a bit because there is no payoff with her.

I am at the bit where she gets carried away by the dragon in book 5 and I was going yes.

Mickeroo · 23-04-2014 12:38am

It's getting very hard to talk about the "rape" scene in the other thread without getting into spoiler territory, I just want to scream "IT DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE JAIMIE STAYS A LIKABLE CHARACTER FOR THE NEXT FEW SEASONS AT LEAST!!!!"

It's pretty telling imo that people who haven't read the books still found it jarring even though they have no idea where Jaimie's story goes next though.

Liam O · 23-04-2014 12:42am

bopper wrote: »

Loras is devalued by the Lannisters because they devalue his whole family. Yet Tywin still insists on him marrying Cersei, and Jamie is quite clearly threatened by him, so they don't obviously see him as being that "weak". He is shown to have a lot of respect and admiration from many of the other characters. So was Renly, he was a King fgs! Brienne also would have died for him. Oberyn is showing so signs of being written off for "acting the way he does", and I really don't see how him sleeping with men is not consistent with his character!! Especially as it's said in the book that he sleeps with men. Unless you think you need to act a certain way to be allowed to sleep with men.

I think the show would devalue the books more if it completely ignored all suggestions of Loras and Renly's relationship, and Oberyn's bisexuality, and portrayed a world where gay men don't exist (but where lesbian sex is frequent). The book never says anything about homosexuality being outlawed so I don't see how it makes more sense for the show suddenly declare it's a weakness and not allowed.

People of Westeros see it as a weakness and at the very least people had to be secretive about it, something Renly and Loras was doing. I'm not sure I've seen a meaningful lesbian scene either in the show if that's what you're looking to jump on. Homosexuality is something that obviously had to be kept secret outside of Dorne so yes I'd say. I'm also not saying you need to act a certain way to sleep with men. I'm saying Oberyn's character in the show is inconsistent with his book character who comments on Ellaria's sexual adventurism in a way that I would think sounds like something that he doesn't overly partake him. The rumours of his bi-sexualism are only that, rumours. He's not going around blatantly having sex and I actually, maybe naively thought that he was reasonably monogamous to Ellaria, it seems strange that he has only been shown to be interested in the men outside her, 2 men so far have caught his eye and he's yet to look at Ellaria with the same passion, probably because he just looks past her when Loras is around :rolleyes: Can't imagine book Ellaria standing for that...

Witcher · 23-04-2014 12:51am

Do we really need a discussion of how gay Oberyn Martell is?

The show is not the books and the books are not the show..just run with it for christ sake or just don't watch it.

bopper · 23-04-2014 1:10am

Liam O wrote: »

People of Westeros see it as a weakness and at the very least people had to be secretive about it, something Renly and Loras was doing. I'm not sure I've seen a meaningful lesbian scene either in the show if that's what you're looking to jump on. Homosexuality is something that obviously had to be kept secret outside of Dorne so yes I'd say. I'm also not saying you need to act a certain way to sleep with men. I'm saying Oberyn's character in the show is inconsistent with his book character who comments on Ellaria's sexual adventurism in a way that I would think sounds like something that he doesn't overly partake him. The rumours of his bi-sexualism are only that, rumours. He's not going around blatantly having sex and I actually, maybe naively thought that he was reasonably monogamous to Ellaria, it seems strange that he has only been shown to be interested in the men outside her, 2 men so far have caught his eye and he's yet to look at Ellaria with the same passion, probably because he just looks past her when Loras is around :rolleyes: Can't imagine book Ellaria standing for that...

I don't recall anyone in the show or book saying it's a weakness, and I don't see how it's something that obviously has to be kept a secret outside of Dorne, that's never been said either. Renly was in line for the throne so he was more secretive about his relationship with Loras as people might question his ability to bear children otherwise. Even at that we have yet to witness a character who is unaware of his relationship with Loras, except maybe Sansa, but that could down to her being young and naive.

We must be watching different shows because to me it's quite clear that Oberyn worships Ellaria, and he seemed more than keen on the female prostitutes in episode one. I'm not sure how you can say that whenever Loras is around he never shows any interest in her. How could anyone know that when he's only had one brief interaction with Loras so far? I doubt she would mind anyway as she spent most of her screentime in the last episode with another woman's face between her legs. So if it's OK for her to be bisexual, I don't see how it's not for him, or how it fits her character but not his.

bopper · 23-04-2014 1:16am

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's getting very hard to talk about the "rape" scene in the other thread without getting into spoiler territory, I just want to scream "IT DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE JAIMIE STAYS A LIKABLE CHARACTER FOR THE NEXT FEW SEASONS AT LEAST!!!!"

Does he though? I have a feeling he does something horrible in the next book and the writers might be trying to prevent viewers from warming to him too much.

Hotale.com · 23-04-2014 1:24am

bopper wrote: »

Does he though? I have a feeling he does something horrible in the next book and the writers might be trying to prevent viewers from warming to him too much.

I still imagine that if he kills Cersei it won't be an exactly joyous moment for fans, like Joffrey's death was. I nearly feel sorry for her in the books. Sure, she's a power-hungry psycho, but from her point of view her son was murdered by her brother, her father was murdered by her brother, she's been jailed for a couple of weeks (I think) and has been shamed in front of the entire city, on top of this she is severely paranoid and nearly certainly is suffering from depression. Her life is a mess and the one person she really does seem to trust has essentially disowned her (albeit that she doesn't know Jaime burned her letter). Of course she's a hateful, evil woman, but still I feel pity for her after her POV chapters.

bopper · 23-04-2014 2:43am

Hotale.com wrote: »

I still imagine that if he kills Cersei it won't be an exactly joyous moment for fans, like Joffrey's death was. I nearly feel sorry for her in the books. Sure, she's a power-hungry psycho, but from her point of view her son was murdered by her brother, her father was murdered by her brother, she's been jailed for a couple of weeks (I think) and has been shamed in front of the entire city, on top of this she is severely paranoid and nearly certainly is suffering from depression. Her life is a mess and the one person she really does seem to trust has essentially disowned her (albeit that she doesn't know Jaime burned her letter). Of course she's a hateful, evil woman, but still I feel pity for her after her POV chapters.

I personally haven't felt any pity for her, even after she started getting POV chapters, but each to their own! I wasn't thinking of him killing Cersei, but maybe some other character more popular with viewers. I think him killing Cersei (or her killing him) would be too obvious anyway, and we know GOT never really goes for the obvious!

username123 · 23-04-2014 10:05am

Liam O wrote: »

People of Westeros see it as a weakness and at the very least people had to be secretive about it, something Renly and Loras was doing. I'm not sure I've seen a meaningful lesbian scene either in the show if that's what you're looking to jump on. Homosexuality is something that obviously had to be kept secret outside of Dorne so yes I'd say. I'm also not saying you need to act a certain way to sleep with men. I'm saying Oberyn's character in the show is inconsistent with his book character who comments on Ellaria's sexual adventurism in a way that I would think sounds like something that he doesn't overly partake him. The rumours of his bi-sexualism are only that, rumours. He's not going around blatantly having sex and I actually, maybe naively thought that he was reasonably monogamous to Ellaria, it seems strange that he has only been shown to be interested in the men outside her, 2 men so far have caught his eye and he's yet to look at Ellaria with the same passion, probably because he just looks past her when Loras is around :rolleyes: Can't imagine book Ellaria standing for that...

Where exactly is this coming from, that people of Westeros see homosexuality as a weakness? The only reason Renly hid it was because he was actually married to someone else - but everyone knew about it and no one thought any the less of him.

I havent seen Oberyn looking past Ellaria either - they are sharing their sexual partners, the whole point is that they are a monogamous committed couple who swing with both male and female - together.

TwoShedsJackson · 23-04-2014 10:40am

bopper wrote: »

Originally Posted by TwoShedsJackson View Post
How many times has Loras shown his prowess with a sword over a lewd glance to a guy?

I didn't post this.

Rosy Posy · 23-04-2014 10:58am

Mickeroo wrote: »

How did the whole Shae thing work in the book again? Did Tyrion try to send her away at all? I presume she'll be unveiled as a witness against Tyrion at the trial.

My guess is that when they discover Sansa is missing at the very start of this episode and Tywin gives orders to stop and search every ship in the bay she'll be turned up and bribed or threatened into giving evidence.

In the book afair he keeps thinking he should send her away but finds himself unable to do so, but is increasingly more careful about their meetings- meeting in the underground place where the dragon skulls are kept, and in Varys' chambers.

FunLover18 · 23-04-2014 1:11pm

Sansa's escape was a bit sh*t. A convenient weather change from bright sunset to foggy black of night.

I can't remember in the books was her absence noticed straight away?

Burt Macklin · 23-04-2014 1:38pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Sansa's escape was a bit sh*t. A convenient weather change from bright sunset to foggy black of night.

I can't remember in the books was her absence noticed straight away?

I always pictured the wedding reception taking place at night in a large hall, but I imagine it was easier for the show to shoot it outside in the daytime. They then must have thought that the escape scene would look better at night.

In the books she runs to the Godswood as soon as Joffrey starts choking, and there is so much confusion and commotion in the crowd that no-one notices.
There was also a lot more people around Joffrey like Garlan Tyrell trying to revive him.

As far as I remember Cersei tells the guards to arrest both her and Tyrion straight away, but she's already gone. Dontos then finds her and whisks her away.

It did look a bit strange in the show, how it went from being bright outside to very foggy in one cut. Also the editing was a bit choppy and weird. I felt like the start was a 'previously on Game of Thrones' bit.

username123 · 23-04-2014 2:16pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Sansa's escape was a bit sh*t. A convenient weather change from bright sunset to foggy black of night.

I just took that to mean that they were scurrying along back streets and trying to stay out of sight so time passed before they got to the shore. God knows how long the boat trip to the big boat was, Littlefingers boat must have been outside the harbour else Tywin would have searched it.

Liam O · 23-04-2014 3:47pm

username123 wrote: »

Where exactly is this coming from, that people of Westeros see homosexuality as a weakness? The only reason Renly hid it was because he was actually married to someone else - but everyone knew about it and no one thought any the less of him.

I havent seen Oberyn looking past Ellaria either - they are sharing their sexual partners, the whole point is that they are a monogamous committed couple who swing with both male and female - together.

Not necessarily a weakness, but a source of derision. Comments like "renowned pillow biter" and other homophobic comments throughout the show hardly paint the picture of acceptance...

username123 · 23-04-2014 4:09pm

Liam O wrote: »

Not necessarily a weakness, but a source of derision. Comments like "renowned pillow biter" and other homophobic comments throughout the show hardly paint the picture of acceptance...

I cant say Ive noticed that as a common theme, certainly some people have made homophobic comments, but that would reflect real life - there will always be some people who are homophobic.

Mickeroo · 23-04-2014 4:13pm

Renly and Loras weren't openly gay to be fair, it's just a badly kept secret. They are/were both expected to father heirs or marry at some point in the show so it makes sense for that reason at least. I think it's more a case of it being frowned upon than being out right derided.

Despite that, I don't see it as a problem for Oberyn as he obviously comes from a place were his sexuality is accepted anyway, plus he's clearly bisexual not homosexual.

username123 · 23-04-2014 4:26pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Renly and Loras weren't openly gay to be fair, it's just a badly kept secret. They are/were both expected to father heirs or marry at some point in the show so it makes sense for that reason at least. I think it's more a case of it being frowned upon than being out right derided.

Despite that, I don't see it as a problem for Oberyn as he obviously comes from a place were his sexuality is accepted anyway, plus he's clearly bisexual not homosexual.

I think given the society they live in, any noble born male is expected to marry and produce heirs - at least if there is no one else to carry the family name forward, unless they join the nightswatch or kingsguard or other similar brotherhood where celibacy is the order of the day (although a blind eye is turned to whoring).

Actually whoring is a good parallel here, whoring is ok, but people would try to be reasonably discreet about it.

Witcher · 23-04-2014 4:38pm

From the other thread;

He's (Tywin) fast becoming my favourite character in the show, and Tyrion is becoming one of my least favourite.

Just hope that they don't go and kill him now

Sorry to tell ya this buddy but...

Paddy Cow · 23-04-2014 4:42pm

Liam O wrote: »

People of Westeros see it as a weakness and at the very least people had to be secretive about it, something Renly and Loras was doing. I'm not sure I've seen a meaningful lesbian scene either in the show if that's what you're looking to jump on. Homosexuality is something that obviously had to be kept secret outside of Dorne so yes I'd say. I'm also not saying you need to act a certain way to sleep with men. I'm saying Oberyn's character in the show is inconsistent with his book character who comments on Ellaria's sexual adventurism in a way that I would think sounds like something that he doesn't overly partake him. The rumours of his bi-sexualism are only that, rumours. He's not going around blatantly having sex and I actually, maybe naively thought that he was reasonably monogamous to Ellaria, it seems strange that he has only been shown to be interested in the men outside her, 2 men so far have caught his eye and he's yet to look at Ellaria with the same passion, probably because he just looks past her when Loras is around :rolleyes: Can't imagine book Ellaria standing for that...

Homosexuality is not seen as a weakness in Westeros. Renly's preferences were an open secret, yet he still managed to amass a huge army. When Olenna was talking with Tywin, she had very progressive views. She saw no problem with two men seeking comfort with one another. The only two people who have shown homophobic views are Tywin and Joffrey and even Tywin would've let a "pillow biter" be apart of the Kingsguard.

I don't think it's an accident that Oberyn is hanging out in the brothel's of King's Landing. On his first day there, Oberyn snuck into KL and went to a brothel and started a fight with Lannisters. That is not how you hide something which is considered a weakness.

Oberyn is not there to be diplomatic, he's trying to antagonise. He knows that his every move is reported back to Tywin and instead of sitting humbly in his chambers waiting for Tywin to call upon his presence, he is doing everything he can to get a rise out of Tywin, which you can see in his conversations between Tywin, himself and Cersei.

We all know that Tywin hates brothels, whores and homosexuals and I think Oberyn played a blinder when he made Tywin come and see him when he was indulging in all three. In that scene, not only did Tywin have to swallow his distaste, he also had to swallow his pride and ask for Dornes help. It shows that no matter how powerful he and his house are, Tywin knows that the Lannisters are in trouble. For Tywin to seek the help of an openly gay/bi adversary, that must be a bitter pill for him to swallow

Liam, with respect, I don't think homosexuality is seen as a weakness in Westeros. If someone as powerful as Tywin, who sees it as distasteful, yet is smart enough to set aside his own feelings and try and get Oberyn and by default, Dorne on board, can you really continue the line of thought that being gay/bi makes you weak?

If anything, the Oberyn storyline has shown us that it doesn't matter if you are gay/straight/bi, ultimately it is your position of power that matters. It doesn't matter who you are taking to bed at night (it could be females or males) but as long as you have powerful houses to support you during the day, it will all be grand

Maximus Alexander · 23-04-2014 4:47pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Too green. This is just south of the wall, it's supposed to be snowy.

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure the books described everything south of the wall as being snow-free until winter sets in, but my memory could be faulty.

Witcher · 23-04-2014 4:48pm

I think they're kinda setting Oberyn up as a bit of a good time guy too, enjoys his leisure but can take care of business when he needs to. Kinda laid back but with a dangerous undertone, if he was just going around kicking ass outright for 8 episodes he'd just be another killer and we have plenty of those already.

Mickeroo · 23-04-2014 4:50pm

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure the books described everything south of the wall as being snow-free until winter sets in, but my memory could be faulty.

I'm nearly sure Winterfell gets regular snowy spells in the book even before winter is actually coming? Could be wrong though.

I always liked how cosy the place sounded with the volcanic spring pumping hot water though the walls.

Michael D Not Higgins · 23-04-2014 4:56pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'm nearly sure Winterfell gets regular snowy spells in the book even before winter is actually coming? Could be wrong though.

I always liked how cosy the place sounded with the volcanic spring pumping hot water though the walls.

Yes they talk of summer snows and there was a section where I think Ned or someone mentions that the snow the kids of Winterfell have seen was nothing compared to a winter snow with huge snow drifts as high as the walls.

Gbear · 23-04-2014 4:57pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'm nearly sure Winterfell gets regular snowy spells in the book even before winter is actually coming? Could be wrong though.

I always liked how cosy the place sounded with the volcanic spring pumping hot water though the walls.

Jon often thinks back to when he left Winterfell and Robb had snow melting in his hair - that was 2 years before winter.

Oranage2 · 23-04-2014 5:26pm

Stannis is also snowed in south of the wall, can somebody remind me has winter come yet?

Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE* read the books

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Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books