Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books

Sugar Free · 22-04-2014 2:22pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Speaking of accents, miss "yew know nuthin jon snewww" has an utterly different voice :eek:

http://gawker.com/what-is-going-on-with-the-accents-in-game-of-thrones-485816507

I think most people assumed she was a Geordie through and through.
Her real accent though is...:o (<--- that's me swooning).

ibarelycare · 22-04-2014 2:29pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Speaking of accents, Liam Cunningham's Irish accent was breaking through in that episode when speaking to Stannis.

I can always hear a hint of Liam Cunningham's Irish accent in the show. His accent remains consistent at least. Aiden Gillen's is embarrassing, and as Mickeroo said, it's being discussed at large on Reddit too, so it's not just standing out to Irish people.

lynski · 22-04-2014 2:34pm

that article is hilarious. but the one accent I had no problem with was Tyrion's - i put it down to being a dwarf and having to work harder to overcome physical challenges.

Yakuza · 22-04-2014 4:02pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

I can always hear a hint of Liam Cunningham's Irish accent in the show. His accent remains consistent at least. Aiden Gillen's is embarrassing, and as Mickeroo said, it's being discussed at large on Reddit too, so it's not just standing out to Irish people.

He used a similar (but not quite as thick) accent (traces of Irish / Home Counties and Geordie) in Outcasts as well :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmDHcN8iji8

Ygritte is more vicious than I remember her from the books. When JS killed her, I felt quite sad that he had to betray her. She's being portrayed as a fair auld butcher in this ep, I won't be so sorry to see her go.

Her best line in S3 - when she's gettin' it on with JS in the cave..."You know nothing (he disappears off screen, down south) Jon Snooo.....ooohhhhh"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56UA2MsFrRU

(Jump to about 1:10 - NSFW!)

Mickeroo · 22-04-2014 4:09pm

Yakuza wrote: »

Ygritte is more vicious than I remember her from the books. When JS killed her, I felt quite sad that he had to betray her. She's being portrayed as a fair auld butcher in this ep, I won't be so sorry to see her go.

I think that might be deliberate to soften the blow that's coming at the end of the season for the folks who haven't read the books.

Was quite surprised at that bit myself, that scene in general has made the wildlings a fair bit less sympathetic than they were in the books. In the books here was a clear distinction between the wildlings I was rooting for and the bad ones, I guess that's the downside to having less characters to play with on screen. Might not be a bad thing in this case though and obviously Ygritte/Tormund are nowhere near as vilified as the cannibals.

Gbear · 22-04-2014 4:25pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think that might be deliberate to soften the blow that's coming at the end of the season for the folks who haven't read the books.

Was quite surprised at that bit myself, that scene in general has made the wildlings a fair bit less sympathetic than they were in the books. In the books here was a clear distinction between the wildlings I was rooting for and the bad ones, I guess that's the downside to having less characters to play with on screen. Might not be a bad thing in this case though and obviously Ygritte/Tormund are nowhere near as vilified as the cannibals.

Tormund and Ygritte still murdered a bunch of people though.

It's hard to know with Tormund because we don't know what he's been doing all throughout his life, but Ygritte was part of the band that burned Moletown at the very least and anyone left there was butchered.

As much as people like to say that the books are filled with grey characters, I think most of them are pretty black and white.

Jamie is willing to do anything for his sister but he wouldn't murder his cousin. When Cersei's grip on him starts to loosen he does seem to be genuinely redeeming himself to the point where he's as just and good a person as still exists in the 7 Kingdoms.

Sandor kills at the command of his master but for all his pretending, he has a pretty rigid moral code when left to his own devices and is never shown to murder without cause.
He's also fairly chivalrous towards Arya - it might be for gold but you don't get any weird rapey vibes that you certainly get from a lot of the characters Arya meets.

And the wildlings have some absolute savages like Harma Dogshead, Alfyn Crowkiller and the Weeper most of all, but by and large they're a decent bunch that just happen to be the enemies of the Night's Watch.

In the show they seem to be trying to make more characters not just a shade of grey, but outright horrible and detestable people and I don't understand why. Maybe it's to better contrast them to the actual heroes, like Jon?

The show seems to do well when they're following the script or when they completely invent something (like Tywin-Arya and Tywin-Oberyn) but I can't think of many changes they've made that have in any way improved the story.

FunLover18 · 22-04-2014 6:21pm

This episode was just all over the shop, with little or nothing of substance happening in any of the story lines. They really could do with losing a couple of them, Sam and Gilly being the obvious one and just forgetting about Daenerys until she's finished freeing every slave in Essos and has something more interesting to offer. Actually Stannis and co. aren't bringing much to the party at the moment, so I wouldn't miss them either. I hope next week's episode has a bit more substance to it.

EDIT I just had a panic attack when I thought I'd accidentally posted in the non-reader thread

Burt Macklin · 22-04-2014 6:49pm

I posted about this in the other thread but I'll say it again, some bad directing choices and an attempt at shock value may have ruined Jaime's character arc.

On the episode as a whole

-''They don't have enough men to raid a pantry''
Classic Stannis. Glad to see a bit more humour in his character, show version was coming off a bit whiny and dour, whereas book Stannis is much more driven and determined. Also looks like Davos is appealing to the iron bank, should be interesting.

-Not a very sound strategy from Sam, with the Wildlings approcahing he kinda took Gilly out of the frying pan and into the fire.

-Charles Dance continues to kill as Tywin. Will be sad to see him go.

--More interesting scenes with Dany, but I do get a sense that they are running short on material for her. The show just seems to spend five minutes with her when they need a cool ending. Also, no Strong Belwas!
''I let each man cut me once, before I kill him. Count the cuts and you will know how many Strong Belwas has slain.''
The show watchers don't know what they're missing. If they cut Coldhands as well, I'll be sad.

Liam O · 22-04-2014 6:56pm

bopper wrote: »

It is mentioned in the books that he sleeps with men, more than once. I don't see how it's a weakness, his character doesn't seem weak at all, quite the opposite actually. There also hasn't been a single gay sex scene in the entire series so far so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Do you find you have to "endure" the huge amount of female nudity and girl on girl action that features in the show? That of course DEFINITELY serves the plot and is NEVER "shoehorned" in just for the sake of it :rolleyes:

I have mentioned in other threads that yes, I do think a lot of them are pointless and shoehorned in. They're onky there because HBO needs nudity in the show, now because the female and gay fans are complaining they are looking for any inkling of a character being gay so they can shoehorn these scenes in. Oberyn hanging out at one of Littlefinger's brothels and Tywin being aware of it and able to burst in at any moment is a huge weakness yes. Don't see how it can be seen any other way. This guy in Littlefinger's brothel could obviously not be trusted and wouldn't be trusted by Oberyn. It mentions twice I think, both by Lannisters that Oberyn is said to sleep with boys, not something that's confirmed and could just be a rumour.

There was one between Loras and Renly 2 seasons back, Loras another character who has had a lot of character building
cut for silly sex scenes or glances. How many times has Loras shown his prowess with a sword over a lewd glance to a guy? The same with a lot of brothel scenes with women, it takes away from the powerful sex scenes that are actually meaningful.

ronoc 1 · 22-04-2014 7:34pm

solid episode,must admit a bit surprised at the jamie and cersei scene,dont understand why didnt just follow it from the the book would have saved them a lot of controversy.bit of a shame as jamie is one of my favourite characters.

on a side note does anyone know if we will see jorah mormant being found out as a traitor in this series,i think it happens in a dance with dragons but the way the stories are all over the place in the programme it wouldnt surprise me if we find out in series four.

Witcher · 22-04-2014 7:39pm

ronoc 1 wrote: »

solid episode,must admit a bit surprised at the jamie and cersei scene,dont understand why didnt just follow it from the the book would have saved them a lot of controversy.bit of a shame as jamie is one of my favourite characters.

on a side note does anyone know if we will see jorah mormant being found out as a traitor in this series,i think it happens in a dance with dragons but the way the stories are all over the place in the programme it wouldnt surprise me if we find out in series four.

Barristan gives him away in ASoS right before they enter Meereen, but in the show there's nobody there that knows he was sending info back on her.

Mickeroo · 22-04-2014 7:43pm

Blay wrote: »

Barristan gives him away in ASoS right before they enter Meereen, but in the show there's nobody there that knows he was sending info back on her.

Barristan hinted at it a few times last season no?

TheIrishGrover · 22-04-2014 7:44pm

I enjoyed that episode. While not the belter that the first two were, not all can be firing on all cylinders.

Loved loved LOVED Tywin and Tommen's conversation. Dance is going to be a HUGE loss (In my opinion the biggest loss of the series).
Loved the Night's Watch scene. Especially when they realise the situation they are really in.
Loved Littlefinger's accent (Although for the wrong reasons I suppose. Dublin/Wales/wherever).
Thought The Hound's scene was important. They really needed to remind everyone what a b*stard he can be. As much as I love Arya and The Hound's scenes you don't want to make him into a great big puppy and his friend (Especially for non-readers).
Sam & Gilly and the perpetually crying baby I could do without..... So that was spot on with the books then.
I tell ya, Sansa looked good in that hood.
Really liked Tywin/Oberon's conversation too. Although I can't remember, did Tywin take the stories of Dany's dragons seriously? I thought it was only really Varys and Littlefinger.
Really liked The Onion Knight's scenes. Love Liam Cunningham.

Witcher · 22-04-2014 7:46pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Barristan hinted at it a few times last season no?

Barristan was never at the SC meetings in the show, Robert didn't want him there.

I don't think he was just BS'ing Jorah either because he wasn't actually there when they discussed Dany in S1.

The Master · 22-04-2014 7:48pm

Blay wrote: »

Barristan gives him away in ASoS right before they enter Meereen, but in the show there's nobody there that knows he was sending info back on her.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Barristan hinted at it a few times last season no?

Tywin mentions Dany and her Dragons in this episode, maybe a reminder/hint to non book readers that information is reaching him in some way....

Witcher · 22-04-2014 7:54pm

The Master wrote: »

Tywin mentions Dany and her Dragons in this episode, maybe a reminder/hint to non book readers that information is reaching him in some way....

I think that's just coming in with sailors and merchants etc. People are talking about it in the prologue of AFFC, the wiki summarises it here;

'Tales told by sailors reach Westeros, dragons in Asshai, dragons in Qarth, dragons in Meereen, Dothraki dragons, dragons freeing slaves … each telling differs from the last, but only in details. All speak of dragons, and a beautiful young queen.'

Mickeroo · 22-04-2014 7:54pm

How did the whole Shae thing work in the book again? Did Tyrion try to send her away at all? I presume she'll be unveiled as a witness against Tyrion at the trial.

The Master · 22-04-2014 8:03pm

Blay wrote: »

I think that's just coming in with sailors and merchants etc. People are talking about it in the prologue of AFFC, the wiki summarises it here;

'Tales told by sailors reach Westeros, dragons in Asshai, dragons in Qarth, dragons in Meereen, Dothraki dragons, dragons freeing slaves … each telling differs from the last, but only in details. All speak of dragons, and a beautiful young queen.'

But did not He (or was it somebody else) dismiss reports of Dragons before
claiming that "fishermen in lannisport claim that they saw mermaids" ?
As I said it might just be planting seeds for non book readers that someone is reporting on Dany...

Paddy Cow · 22-04-2014 8:06pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Really liked The Onion Knight's scenes. Love Liam Cunningham.

I wasn't pushed about his character one way or another in the books. I found him very meh. Love him in the show though.

Witcher · 22-04-2014 8:06pm

The Master wrote: »

But did not He (or was it somebody else) dismiss reports of Dragons before
claiming that "fishermen in lannisport claim that they saw mermaids" ?
As I said it might just be planting seeds for non book readers that someone is reporting on Dany...

That was Tyrion talking about the White Walkers when he was at the Wall.

Tywin told Joffrey not to worry about them last season because the last dragons that lived were all stunted but the news coming in is obviously that they're growing.

Peregrine · 22-04-2014 8:09pm

The Master wrote: »

As I said it might just be planting seeds for non book readers that someone is reporting on Dany...

Dooes the non book readers not know that Jorah was reporting on Dany? :eek:

I thought they knew that from season 1. I remember Ned saying "Are you really going to trust Jorah Mormont? A slaver?" or something like that in the SC. It happened right after we saw him all shocked when he found out Dany was pregnant and said he has to go somewhere.

Sulla Felix · 22-04-2014 8:32pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yeah Gillen seems to be deteriorating as an actor as his career goes on, very strange. It's almost like he's just taking the piss.

Thargor wrote: »

I dont think any death in GoT has ever made me flinch as much as that crossbow bolt in poor Dontos's face.

Littlefinger has been ruined by the ridiculous accents, cant take him seriously and him vs The Spider is one of the most important storylines.

As much as I agree, there is a director on set and Gillen isn't a superstar or a diva (that I've heard of) that they'd be afraid of pulling him aside and poointing him back in the right direction.

Tenger · 22-04-2014 8:39pm

Mezcita wrote: »

Hang on. Who poisoned Joffrey? Littlefinger?

Grandma was protecting her little girl....and Littlefinger was getting himself an easier king......

Hotale.com wrote: »

I really feel sorry for the non-book reading Dany fans, they're expecting so much

I wonder will the long drawn out Dany plot from the books actually make it to the TV series? It would be bad for ratings.....GRRM himself called it a Meerenese Knot......perhaps better to cut it out?

As for the Jaime/Cersei scene........I'm on the "its all ****ed up and dark" bandwagon. Even a more consensual event would have been ****ed up. She has been exerting her power over a man who murdered to get back to her, only to be rebuffed. He is appalled at his new attitude to her yet cannot stop his physical desire towards her.

Burt Macklin · 22-04-2014 8:54pm

One other thing, Tywin tells Oberyn that he needs Dorne's help against Daenerys and her dragons.
But in the books Oberyn tried to raise Dorne's for Viserys after Robert's Rebellion and we later find out that Doran had planned to marry Arianne to him.

I know that the show is only loosely following the books, but they have still established that Oberyn hates the Lannisters and wants revenge, so why would Tywin bother to propose that?

A small thing I know, but it doesn't make much sense.

Witcher · 22-04-2014 8:55pm

Burt Macklin wrote: »

One other thing, Tywin tells Oberyn that he needs Dorne's help against Daenerys and her dragons. But in the books Oberyn tried to raise Dorne's for Viserys after Robert's Rebellion and we later find out that Doran had planned to marry Arianne to him. I know that the show is only loosely following the books, but they have still established that Oberyn hates the Lannisters and wants revenge so why would Tywin bother to propose that?

A small thing I know, but it doesn't make much sense.

That pact was secret, Oberyn went to Braavos to sign it.

Burt Macklin · 22-04-2014 9:21pm

Blay wrote: »

That pact was secret, Oberyn went to Braavos to sign it.

Yeah, that's true but Tywin knows for sure that Oberyn tried to raise Dorne's for Viserys, he mentions it to Tyrion in ASOS.
And even if you only take into account what has happened on the show, Tywin would know that Oberyn blames him for his sister's death and would be highly likely to side with his Sister-in law given the chance, especially if she was a legitimate heir with three dragons.

Taking that into account, it doesn't make much sense why he would make a proposition like that.

bopper · 22-04-2014 9:48pm

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I do seem to remember Loras shaving Renly's chest in season 1 and then proceeding to give him a blowjob, or was I hallucinating that? One man giving another a blowjob is pretty gay.

Yes it's pretty gay, is it a sex scene? Well I guess that's a matter of opinion. I wouldn't say so. I don't think people would call a woman undoing a man's pants followed by a two second shot of the man (from the waist up) tilting his head back a sex scene. Shaving someone's chest definitely isn't sex so I'm not sure why that was mentioned.

celica00 wrote: »

yep that's true and in season 3 you can see Loras and the blonde guy (whos one of Little fingers people) together as well (almost doing it)

Also not a sex scene.

Liam O wrote: »

Oberyn hanging out at one of Littlefinger's brothels and Tywin being aware of it and able to burst in at any moment is a huge weakness yes. Don't see how it can be seen any other way. This guy in Littlefinger's brothel could obviously not be trusted and wouldn't be trusted by Oberyn.

I don't see how it's a weakness when it's not made out to be a weakness in the show, and he doesn't seem in the slightest bit concerned about Tywin, or anyone else, walking in. Also, if you think that the actual weakness is the fact that he's sleeping with Olyvar, and not that he's bisexual, I'm not sure why you state that him having gay sex is the weakness in your last post.

Liam O wrote: »

It mentions twice I think, both by Lannisters that Oberyn is said to sleep with boys, not something that's confirmed and could just be a rumour.

So it is in the books then. I don't remember the books ever confirming Ellaria is bisexual but you seem to state that as a fact in your last post.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

How many times has Loras shown his prowess with a sword over a lewd glance to a guy?

Twice? And they haven't really been lewd. Lewd would suggest the person he's glancing at is offended, when they've welcomed it. I also don't think it's had any negative affect on his character building at all. I think his character has been developed a lot better in the show than in the books. In the books he's simply another forgettable name that's quite hard to picture.

It was because of their relationship that Loras had such a huge influence in convincing Renly to try for the throne. Littlefinger found out about the Tyrell's intentions to marry Sansa to Loras because of Loras sleeping with Olyvar. Loras also became a suspect (to non book readers anyway) in Joffreys death because of his reaction to the Renly dwarf. So his sexual orientation has actually played a part in the development of his character and in moving the story along. It's not there simply so they've an excuse to include some extremely rare and mild gay scenes.

bopper · 22-04-2014 9:49pm

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Dooes the non book readers not know that Jorah was reporting on Dany? :eek:

I thought they knew that from season 1. I remember Ned saying "Are you really going to trust Jorah Mormont? A slaver?" or something like that in the SC. It happened right after we saw him all shocked when he found out Dany was pregnant and said he has to go somewhere.

Yes he he also gets the note from King's Landing to say that Dany is to be killed just before the guy tries to poison her with the wine.

Witcher · 22-04-2014 10:34pm

I saw someone moaning on the Forum of Ice and Fire on Westeros.org about Tywin's speech to Tommen.

They were debating whether he said Orys I or Aerys I, they complained that the first one never existed and the second one's life didn't match up with Tywin's story, according to them it created huge problems...what fcuking difference does it make at all..honestly?:pac:

He was just illustrating a point for the show watchers, some people are so anal about that type of thing over there...'OMG Daario's beard isn't blue...the show is RUINED!!!!111'. The most minor details are omitted and they lose it..'Dany's eyes should be violet'..you can't even see her fcuking eye colour anyway..makes no difference! :pac:

Liam O · 22-04-2014 10:36pm

bopper wrote: »

long multiquote

I think everything ties into my problems with how conspicuous the show is in relation to the books. It stifles multiple theories which is one of the best parts of the books. Yes, Renly and Loras were probably gay but you might not pick up on that in the books and having scenes explicitly showing that devalues the show imo, makes it acceptable in a world where Loras' character is written off as a "pillowbiter" and devalued because it's pretty much known in the show universe because it's so obvious that they're gay whereas in the books there is still reasonable doubt which is why Renly is allowed to get away with being gay. I can't see Oberyn acting the way he does in the show and being able to avoid a similar writing off and feel it's shoehorned in for this reason, because it's not consistent with his character.

Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE* read the books

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Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books