Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE* read the books

Mezcita

Hang on. Who poisoned Joffrey? Littlefinger?

Oranage2

So I've watched the rape scene a few times and my conclusion is that Cersei wanted it just not there.

It also shows that Jamie is still infatuated with her and doesn't care about anything but her.

Rosy Posy

Oranage2 wrote: »

So I've watched the rape scene a few times and my conclusion is that Cersei wanted it just not there.

It also shows that Jamie is still infatuated with her and doesn't care about anything but her.

But she's been holding out on him since he got back- a mixture of being annoyed at him for leaving her and repulsed by his maiming. Whether it was rape or not (definitely rape by modern standards but this really isn't the place to go down that road) it comes across more rapey than it did in the books and that makes me wonder are they setting up Jaime as the valonquar from the prophesy?

mrkite77

Mezcita wrote: »

Hang on. Who poisoned Joffrey? Littlefinger?

He orchestrated it.

There are some screenshots going around that show grandma tyrell taking a crystal off sansa's necklace. Littlefinger is the one who got that necklace and gave it to ser drunkypants.

In the books I believe Littlefinger admits, although the poison was in her hair net.

Rosy Posy

Mezcita wrote: »

Hang on. Who poisoned Joffrey? Littlefinger?

According to Littlefinger (in the books) he put the poison in the necklace and gave it to Dontos to give to Sansa (under false pretenses). Queen of Thorns took the stone with the poison in it from her necklace at the wedding and poisoned Joffery's cup.

username123

Oranage2 wrote: »

So I've watched the rape scene a few times and my conclusion is that Cersei wanted it just not there.

It also shows that Jamie is still infatuated with her and doesn't care about anything but her.

I'm amazed that for so many the question of consent is what's important to them about this scene. I think a lot of viewers are missing the point.

This is a scene where a brother and sister who have been having sex with each other since childhood have some kind of angry sex over the body of their dead child whose parentage was concealed so he could be king. It's meant to be a totally messed up situation! Cersei has already told us earlier in the series that she and Jaime are like one whole, shared the same womb, have a connection that is unimaginable to anyone else. She wasn't fighting him off, she was saying "it's not right", which I took to mean the place, the presence of her dead son.

It was warped, but that was the intention. Consent is hardly relevant given their past. Game of Thrones is a feudal society where women are effectively raped upon marriage. Cersei was being raped by Robert Baratheon and her father was happy to marry her off and have her raped by Loras Tyrell. The show can't really be judged on what would constitute rape by our standards.

Michael D Not Higgins

podgemonster wrote: »

I thought visually a superb episode.

I really like that wildling attack on the village, touching Father son moment then boom! fast paced brutal bloodshed. Quick and painful with a beautiful green hilled backdrop.

Too green. This is just south of the wall, it's supposed to be snowy.

Jelle1880

I don't really like how they are showing the Thenn.

They're not supposed to be like this, if anything they are the most Southern-ish of all the Wildlings.
Although it went a long way in showing that the Wildlings (including Ygritte) are not this bunch of loveable rogues. They are ruthless and will kill anyone who stands in their way.

Michael D Not Higgins

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I don't really like how they are showing the Thenn.

They're not supposed to be like this, if anything they are the most Southern-ish of all the Wildlings.
Although it went a long way in showing that the Wildlings (including Ygritte) are not this bunch of loveable rogues. They are ruthless and will kill anyone who stands in their way.

There's obviously a plotline yet to develop with Rickon and Osha in Skagos. I'm wondering how it affects that, since they are the ones who are supposed to be cannibals.

Rosy Posy

username123 wrote: »

I'm amazed that for so many the question of consent is what's important to them about this scene. I think a lot of viewers are missing the point.

This is a scene where a brother and sister who have been having sex with each other since childhood have some kind of angry sex over the body of their dead child whose parentage was concealed so he could be king. It's meant to be a totally messed up situation! Cersei has already told us earlier in the series that she and Jaime are like one whole, shared the same womb, have a connection that is unimaginable to anyone else. She wasn't fighting him off, she was saying "it's not right", which I took to mean the place, the presence of her dead son.

It was warped, but that was the intention. Consent is hardly relevant given their past. Game of Thrones is a feudal society where women are effectively raped upon marriage. Cersei was being raped by Robert Baratheon and her father was happy to marry her off and have her raped by Loras Tyrell. The show can't really be judged on what would constitute rape by our standards.

For me, in this scene, consent is important insofar as its an indication of the power play that's going on between Cersei and Jaime. Cersei is obsessed with power and resents the inequality between Jaime and her because of her sex- there's an interesting passage in the book where she describes how people treated her differently when she and Jaime would swop clothes and pretend to be each other as children. She also admits to seeing her sexuality as a means to gaining power. Now that she has become the Regent she is attempting to exert her new found power over Jaime, among other ways, by denying him sex. By dictating the terms of their sexual relationship in this scene, Jaime, who has already been disempowered by the loss of his sword hand, by which he himself and most other people judged his worth and masculinity, is effectively wresting back some of that power from Cersei.

One of the most significant differences, for me, in the departure from the book, was that, afair, in the book Jaime came back to KL determined to openly be together with Cersei and marry her- if its good enough for the Targareans its good enough for them, but this is unthinkable to Cersei because this would negate their claim to the throne and hers as regent. She cares more about power, whereas he cares more about them being together. I can't remember if he brought it up in this scene in the book or if it came up in one of their previous scenes in the tv show.

Sleepy

While I was a bit "meh" on this episode myself I have to admit I find the biphobic whinging about Oberyn's portrayal disappointing. The character was always bi and always a badass. Enjoying sex with men does not make one a weak or effeminate person: the ancient Greeks were notable for their acceptance of homosexuality almost as much as their reputation as fierce warriors. Oberyn's a badass and he's bi, get over it tbh...

I was more disappointed in the portrayal of the Hound in this episode. In the book he simply "pays" the ferryman with the Brotherhood without Banners' promissory note whereas here they have him beating a defenseless farmer and stealing from him. It's a change in shades of grey admittedly but, to me, it seems that while the escalation from fare-dodging to assault and burglary takes the hound outside of his own code of ethics. He scorns the knights for their hypocrisy yet, unless provoked generally seems happy to live and let live. He has a gift for violence but we don't particularly see him taking the same joy in it that his brother does. Maybe it's rose-tinted glasses but it just felt out of character for him at this point in his arc.

Sugar Free

Sleepy wrote: »

I was more disappointed in the portrayal of the Hound in this episode. In the book he simply "pays" the ferryman with the Brotherhood without Banners' promissory note whereas here they have him beating a defenseless farmer and stealing from him.

Ah yes, that was what happened. I couldn't recall fully, thanks for clarifying.

username123

Sleepy wrote: »

Maybe it's rose-tinted glasses but it just felt out of character for him at this point in his arc.

For me both Jaime and the Hound have been mirroring each others changes in the tv show.

We initially saw both as pretty horrible, then both seemed to be on a path of redemption, now both have done something horrible again to cause us to step back and continue to dislike them.

I was a bit disappointed in his common thievery as well.

Kunkka

Sleepy wrote: »

I was more disappointed in the portrayal of the Hound in this episode. In the book he simply "pays" the ferryman with the Brotherhood without Banners' promissory note whereas here they have him beating a defenseless farmer and stealing from him. It's a change in shades of grey admittedly but, to me, it seems that while the escalation from fare-dodging to assault and burglary takes the hound outside of his own code of ethics. He scorns the knights for their hypocrisy yet, unless provoked generally seems happy to live and let live. He has a gift for violence but we don't particularly see him taking the same joy in it that his brother does. Maybe it's rose-tinted glasses but it just felt out of character for him at this point in his arc.

Couldn't agree any more about the Hound and I agree what username said about Jaime as well. The show really have made a dogs bollocks of the two characters. The moment in the books with Jaime & Cersei is completely different to the books, you still feel like Jaime is on the road to redemption after it in the books. The same can be said for the hound after he teams up with Ayra. They have a lot of work to do to get these two great characters portrayed correctly to do the books justice. The later stuff with Jaime just won't feel right now...

Thargor

I dont think any death in GoT has ever made me flinch as much as that crossbow bolt in poor Dontos's face.

Littlefinger has been ruined by the ridiculous accents, cant take him seriously and him vs The Spider is one of the most important storylines.

Mickeroo

Yeah Gillen seems to be deteriorating as an actor as his career goes on, very strange. It's almost like he's just taking the piss.

FunLover18

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Tyrion's trial by judges is in two weeks. His trial by champion is still to be announced. Bronn isn't allowed anywhere near Tyrion so that Tyrion won't be able to convince Bronn to be his champion a second time. Tywin thinks he has been clever by putting Oberyn on the judge's jury against Tyrion. I can't remember how it happens in the books but Oberyn is going to pull a fast one so he can get to fight the mountain. No one will be expecting a trial by champion and they'll probably have to wait for the mountain to reach King's Landing which will stretch out the timeline. I can't wait for the look on Tywin's face when Oberyn pulls this stunt

I'm finding it extremely hard not to get attached to Oberyn. I think his death will be the biggest blow for non-readers this season. They're accustomed to established characters being killed at this stage so I won't be surprised at all if there is a bigger reaction to Oberyn's death (which was gut-wrenchingly tragic for me in the books) than there is to Tywin's.

Oranage2 wrote: »

So I've watched the rape scene a few times and my conclusion is that Cersei wanted it just not there.

PERV!!!

Ah no, seriously though, all this debate about that scene reminds me of this

TwoShedsJackson

bopper wrote: »

There also hasn't been a single gay sex scene in the entire series so far so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I do seem to remember Loras shaving Renly's chest in season 1 and then proceeding to give him a blowjob, or was I hallucinating that? One man giving another a blowjob is pretty gay.

celica00

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I do seem to remember Loras shaving Renly's chest in season 1 and then proceeding to give him a blowjob, or was I hallucinating that? One man giving another a blowjob is pretty gay.

yep that's true and in season 3 you can see Loras and the blonde guy (whos one of Little fingers people) together as well (almost doing it)

razorblunt

About Littlefinger's accent, is there anyone but Irish folk complaining about it? It doesn't bother me as much I have to say. What bothered me the most last night was the crowd on the wall looking down on the Champions, it looked so fake and clearly on a stage.

I found the Cersei - Jaime scene to have an almost Straw Dog vibe off it, watching it with the other half and she commented "she's not exactly fighting him off is she?".
Wonder will this lead to Cersei eventually casting him aside like in the books?

Best scene for me was at the wall when the realisation hits Thorne that the mutineers might spill the beans on the low numbers left behind. Greatly acted all round really.

Stone Deaf 4evr

The one thing that I'm interested in, is how quickly they're catching up with the storylines of the books. At this rate, its entirely possible that Briennes Story, Jon Snows story and Aryas story will be in line with the books by the end of next season.

George would want to warm up his typewriter and get cracking on finishing the last 2 books. I read somewhere that he's currently working on a companion book outlining the lore. FFS, finish the main story first!

Mr.Prodston

- Littlefinger's accent was hilarious, I just couldn't help but chuckle but I'm sure it'll improve again.

- The problem with the "rape" is that it looks like a rape on first watch even as a book reader, I was expecting a bit more consent so I can only imagine what non-readers in general would make. They messed up the filming of it but they won't admit it. Watching in again on tv last night it wasn't actually as bad but still it'll hurt people's opinions of Jaime who is for all intents and purposes in the process of redemption.

- Maisie Williams is just brilliant, herself and the hound have really been brought to life. I properly laughed when she said "Father!!" after the hound was being rude :pac:

- It's important to see the viciousness of the wildlings I think even if the whole cannibal thing is a little much, especially with the Skagos story up in the air. I actually thought that child was Rickon for a split second at the start and was wondering what the hell was going on.

- I like Sam, I like him in the books. There I've said it! There was maybe a little too much of that story in the episode though, one scene combining it all may have been enough. I love how he was firm with the "tavern" owner though, he's not so craven now!

stesaurus

razorblunt wrote: »

About Littlefinger's accent, is there anyone but Irish folk complaining about it? It doesn't bother me as much I have to say. What bothered me the most last night was the crowd on the wall looking down on the Champions, it looked so fake and clearly on a stage.

I found the Cersei - Jaime scene to have an almost Straw Dog vibe off it, watching it with the other half and she commented "she's not exactly fighting him off is she?".
Wonder will this lead to Cersei eventually casting him aside like in the books?

Best scene for me was at the wall when the realisation hits Thorne that the mutineers might spill the beans on the low numbers left behind. Greatly acted all round really.

Between that scene and the slightly earlier one in which Jon gave his advice they are finally showing Jon not be such an idiot. He's finally showing some leadership and wisdom.

I'd also agree about the accent. It's only us Irish that are noticing it.

stesaurus

I've firmly been in the books are different to the TV show and shouldn't be compared camp 'but' I don't like the rape and thievery shown by Jamie and the Hound.
I can't reconcile them with how the character arcs have been shown in the show. The Hound has a code one minute then just gives it up the next. The rape scene could have shown Jaime to back down following protestations only to have Cersei turn the tide and mount him. That would have seemed more natural with the current situations.

Mickeroo

It's not just the accent, it's his line delivery and just general bad acting. He was awful last season too and didn't use an Irish accent, he was awful in Calvary with an Irish accent and he was awful in the third Batman film with an American accent (only in it two minutes though).

Also people have been singling him out on the r/gameofthrones too so it's not just us Irish folk.

I find it baffling since I thought he was great in Season 1 and through out his whole time in The Wire.

Peregrine

Didn't Jaime refuse Cersei in the White Sword Tower towards the end of ASOS?

It'll be interesting to see what they did with that scene, if they did film it.

Speaking of accents, miss "yew know nuthin jon snewww" has an utterly different voice :eek:

http://gawker.com/what-is-going-on-with-the-accents-in-game-of-thrones-485816507

Michael D Not Higgins

Speaking of accents, Liam Cunningham's Irish accent was breaking through in that episode when speaking to Stannis.

lynski

would I be right in thinking that the sam/gilly scenes are a set-up for later, a shortcut to get non-book readers to give a damn about the 'royal' wildling baby and gilly's baby swop? they will have to build in something there, as the wildings are not getting enough screen time yet to build up some sympathy and to give Sam some profile too for his trip south?

celica00

yeah I think as well that this is just some "background" info at the moment to understand better for people who didn't read the books