Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE* read the books

Mickeroo

Oranage2 wrote: »

Stannis is also snowed in south of the wall, can somebody remind me has winter come yet?

Yeah at that point it's pretty much winter or almost at least, there's even snow in Kings Landing at some point iirc.

Burt Macklin

Oranage2 wrote: »

Stannis is also snowed in south of the wall, can somebody remind me has winter come yet?

I think it's autumn. In the books winter doesn't come until the epilogue of ADWD, when the Citadel sends the white raven to KL.

Washington Irving

Burt Macklin wrote: »

I think it's autumn. In the books winter doesn't come until the epilogue of ADWD, when the Citadel sends the white raven to KL.

Yup, there is a white raven in Pycelle's chambers when he and Kevan are killed.

Greyjoy

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Homosexuality is not seen as a weakness in Westeros. Renly's preferences were an open secret, yet he still managed to amass a huge army. When Olenna was talking with Tywin, she had very progressive views. She saw no problem with two men seeking comfort with one another. The only two people who have shown homophobic views are Tywin and Joffrey and even Tywin would've let a "pillow biter" be apart of the Kingsguard.

Cersei refers to Loras derisively as a 'pillow biter' and wasn't there a scene shortly after Renly's murder of two (Lannister?) soldiers joking that Loras had been "stabbing Renly in the back for years" ?

In the book Renly, Loras & Oberyn's sexualities are hinted at but never explictly shown. The way that they have been portrayed in the tv show is an example of how the writers don't trust the audience to pick up on clues and have to make things really obvious for the viewers.

Mickeroo

Greyjoy wrote: »

The way that they have been portrayed in the tv show is an example of how the writers don't trust the audience to pick up on clues and have to make things really obvious for the viewers.

I don't agree with that at all, it's not explicit in the book because they don't have POV chapters. Since they're relatively big characters in the show it made sense to show their relationship in order to give them screen time early on and build their relationship up a bit to get the audience to care about them and understand the dynamics at play.

Paddy Cow

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure the books described everything south of the wall as being snow-free until winter sets in, but my memory could be faulty.

When Bran and Rickon were leaving Winterfall, there was a heavy snow ie Winter had set in. At the end of the books it was snowing in King's Landing, a fair sign that winter is coming here. One of the biggest things that held Stannis back was the snow in the north. The army marching on Winterfell lost more men and supplies to the cold and snow than they do through battle. At this stage in the show, every scene which takes place in the North should be a snow scene, but given that the timelines are all over the place it's hard to make out what's happening.

There still should be a lot more snow though and CastleBlack should be a very difficult place to live in but it doesn't seem too bad right now?

Liam O

Paddy Cow wrote: »

long post

I've already said weakness was probably the wrong word to use and I agree with a lot of what you say when you put it like that but Oberyn's willingness to hop into bed with every man or woman that comes by. Isn't the guy he's with now an informant or something already? My problem is overall the the way that everything has to be sexualised instead of giving time to other things.

The direction hasn't been great this season, they also seem to disregard character arcs with both the Hound and Jaime going backwards this episode because of bad directorial choices. Even in the wedding there's no way Olenna could have done it without Margaery being in on it but apparently Margaery didn't do it if this episode is anything to go by. They don't have time to sort out something simple or actually have Balon Greyjoy die but they find time for Oberyn to have scenes that are pointless outside of giving balance to the male and female fans with regards sex scenes. Which have mainly been pointless overall.

Witcher

Greyjoy wrote: »

Cersei refers to Loras derisively as a 'pillow biter' and wasn't there a scene shortly after Renly's murder of two (Lannister?) soldiers joking that Loras had been "stabbing Renly in the back for years" ?

In the book Renly, Loras & Oberyn's sexualities are hinted at but never explictly shown. The way that they have been portrayed in the tv show is an example of how the writers don't trust the audience to pick up on clues and have to make things really obvious for the viewers.

They have to do that though, TV audiences can be as thick as sh1t sometimes. Guy over on the non reader thread didn't even know Joffrey was Jaime's son:pac:

Turtyturd

Mickeroo wrote: »

.

I always liked how cosy the place sounded with the volcanic spring pumping hot water though the walls.

I take it you mean the dragon below that was heating to castle.

I don't see the issues with Dany' s storyline, there is plenty of material there to cover the next two seasons between her taking the city, trying to keep it under control, her marriage, the gathering of armies outside the city, the pale mare, her being taken off by Drogon, and her being reunited with he Kaalasar.

bopper

Greyjoy wrote: »

Cersei refers to Loras derisively as a 'pillow biter' and wasn't there a scene shortly after Renly's murder of two (Lannister?) soldiers joking that Loras had been "stabbing Renly in the back for years" ?

In the book Renly, Loras & Oberyn's sexualities are hinted at but never explictly shown. The way that they have been portrayed in the tv show is an example of how the writers don't trust the audience to pick up on clues and have to make things really obvious for the viewers.

Those two insults do not mean it's a weakness at all. How many (much harsher) insults have been thrown around to other characters who aren't gay?

I don't think they're making things really obvious for viewers but simply developing Renly's and Loras' characters which in my opinion has worked. As I've already mentioned in this thread the Renly/Loras relationship has actually contributed to the overall story, it hasn't served no purpose.

bopper

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I didn't post this.

Sorry didn't even notice that, not sure how I managed to quote it that way.

Paddy Cow

Greyjoy wrote: »

Cersei refers to Loras derisively as a 'pillow biter' and wasn't there a scene shortly after Renly's murder of two (Lannister?) soldiers joking that Loras had been "stabbing Renly in the back for years" ?

No one cares what Cersei thinks and this is highlighted by Tywin telling her in a previous series that the reason he doesn't take her counsel seriously is not because she is a woman but because she is not as intelligent as she would like to think she is. If Tywin doesn't take Cersei seriously, they why would you highlight her thoughts to argue your point?

In the book Renly, Loras & Oberyn's sexualities are hinted at but never explictly shown. The way that they have been portrayed in the tv show is an example of how the writers don't trust the audience to pick up on clues and have to make things really obvious for the viewers.

There have been numerous things that have been hinted at in the books, which have been explicitly shown in the show simply because in books you can put thoughts in a readers head but when it comes to a show, you have to be more forward. Take for example the murder of Joffrey. In the books it was easy to point the finger at many people. However in the show, they specifically showed Ser Dontos asking Sansa to wear the necklace and Olenna taking a piece of the necklace to use as poison. It wasn't too hard for show readers to put two and two together but without those scenes, it wouldn't have made sense.

Just like the gay/bi scenes. You might think they are gratuitous and serve no purpose but those of us playing the long game can see their purpose. Look at it this way, had you not read the books and if the show had cut out the gay scenes, would you have known that Renly was gay? Probably not. So when Margery was explaining to Joffrey that her maiden hood was still intact, despite being married to the King, what reason could she have given? Joffrey accepted her explanation because he believed the rumours that Renly was gay. If TV viewers had never heard of his "gayness" then her allegations would come across as a pathetic excuse. Since the tv viewers saw Renly and Loras in gay circumstances, it was much easier for them to accept Joffrey's acceptance of Margery. There was simply no way for the show to imply Renly's gayness to an acceptable level without making him out and out gay. How you cannot see this is beyond me.

Liam O wrote: »

I've already said weakness was probably the wrong word to use and I agree with a lot of what you say when you put it like that but Oberyn's willingness to hop into bed with every man or woman that comes by. Isn't the guy he's with now an informant or something already? My problem is overall the the way that everything has to be sexualised instead of giving time to other things.

As I already pointed out, Oberyn is no fool and it's no happy chance that he ended up in the brothel that he did. If you go back to his first scene with the blond guy, it's clear the he specifically chose him because he knew that anything he said to this guy would go back to the capital. The blond guy said that he wasn't a whore and he worked for Littlefinger and Oberyn pointed out that anyone who worked for Littlefinger was a whore.

These are the actions of someone who is very aware of the situation they are putting themselves into. When Loras slept with blond guy, it was because of lust and Loras's loose tongue saw him loose his engagement to Sansa and earn a betrothal to Cersei. This had nothing to do with Loras being gay and everything to do with him being young and too stupid to keep his mouth shut. Oberyn is smart enough to use the blond guy to pass on his movements to the capital, without letting them know his intention. Again, I reiterate that Oberyn played a blinder and does not come across as weak here whatsoever.

The direction hasn't been great this season, they also seem to disregard character arcs with both the Hound and Jaime going backwards this episode because of bad directorial choices. Even in the wedding there's no way Olenna could have done it without Margaery being in on it but apparently Margaery didn't do it if this episode is anything to go by. They don't have time to sort out something simple or actually have Balon Greyjoy die but they find time for Oberyn to have scenes that are pointless outside of giving balance to the male and female fans with regards sex scenes. Which have mainly been pointless overall.

Margery was always in on it. The Tyrell's got lucky when Joffrey decided to act the prick and make a holy show of Tyrion. Even if that hadn't happened, they still would've poisoned him. If you had been playing close attention, there was an episode in the last season when Margery and Olenna were sitting in the gardens. Margery passed a less than complimentary remark on Joffrey and Olenna basically told her to cope on, as there are many ears in the gardens.

Margery's show of disbelief was just that, a show. She is playing the long game and if when the numerous handmaidens/servants etc who are eavesdropping report back to the Lannisters, all they will tell is that Margery is distraught about the situation. Margery and her grandmother are far too smart to get caught out by rubbing their hands in glee and bragging about their deception.

The only part of your post that I can agree with is about Jamie. That scene with Jamie and Cersei was supposed to be distasteful because of where they were having sex but it became more about rape. As for the Hound, while I like his character and was disappointing to see him break his code and rob someone, the directors had to do something to break the Arya and Hound bond. In the books it comes across clearly that Arya hates the Hound but in the show they developed a bond. Considering that Arya is supposed to callously leave him for dead, it was necessary for the director to show that the Hound isn't just a loveable rouge and in fact can be the biggest sh!t in Westeros who deserves to die. Either they slightly ruin the Hound's character now or they totally do a number on Arya's character in an episode or two.

Hotale.com

Paddy Cow wrote: »

No one cares what Cersei thinks and this is highlighted by Tywin telling her in a previous series that the reason he doesn't take her counsel seriously is not because she is a woman but because she is not as intelligent as she would like to think she is. If Tywin doesn't take Cersei seriously, they why would you highlight her thoughts to argue your point?


There have been numerous things that have been hinted at in the books, which have been explicitly shown in the show simply because in books you can put thoughts in a readers head but when it comes to a show, you have to be more forward. Take for example the murder of Joffrey. In the books it was easy to point the finger at many people. However in the show, they specifically showed Ser Dontos asking Sansa to wear the necklace and Olenna taking a piece of the necklace to use as poison. It wasn't too hard for show readers to put two and two together but without those scenes, it wouldn't have made sense.

Just like the gay/bi scenes. You might think they are gratuitous and serve no purpose but those of us playing the long game can see their purpose. Look at it this way, had you not read the books and if the show had cut out the gay scenes, would you have known that Renly was gay? Probably not. So when Margery was explaining to Joffrey that her maiden hood was still intact, despite being married to the King, what reason could she have given? Joffrey accepted her explanation because he believed the rumours that Renly was gay. If TV viewers had never heard of his "gayness" then her allegations would come across as a pathetic excuse. Since the tv viewers saw Renly and Loras in gay circumstances, it was much easier for them to accept Joffrey's acceptance of Margery. There was simply no way for the show to imply Renly's gayness to an acceptable level without making him out and out gay. How you cannot see this is beyond me.


As I already pointed out, Oberyn is no fool and it's no happy chance that he ended up in the brothel that he did. If you go back to his first scene with the blond guy, it's clear the he specifically chose him because he knew that anything he said to this guy would go back to the capital. The blond guy said that he wasn't a whore and he worked for Littlefinger and Oberyn pointed out that anyone who worked for Littlefinger was a whore.

These are the actions of someone who is very aware of the situation they are putting themselves into. When Loras slept with blond guy, it was because of lust and Loras's loose tongue saw him loose his engagement to Sansa and earn a betrothal to Cersei. This had nothing to do with Loras being gay and everything to do with him being young and too stupid to keep his mouth shut. Oberyn is smart enough to use the blond guy to pass on his movements to the capital, without letting them know his intention. Again, I reiterate that Oberyn played a blinder and does not come across as weak here whatsoever.


Margery was always in on it. The Tyrell's got lucky when Joffrey decided to act the prick and make a holy show of Tyrion. Even if that hadn't happened, they still would've poisoned him. If you had been playing close attention, there was an episode in the last season when Margery and Olenna were sitting in the gardens. Margery passed a less than complimentary remark on Joffrey and Olenna basically told her to cope on, as there are many ears in the gardens.

Margery's show of disbelief was just that, a show. She is playing the long game and if when the numerous handmaidens/servants etc who are eavesdropping report back to the Lannisters, all they will tell is that Margery is distraught about the situation. Margery and her grandmother are far too smart to get caught out by rubbing their hands in glee and bragging about their deception.

The only part of your post that I can agree with is about Jamie. That scene with Jamie and Cersei was supposed to be distasteful because of where they were having sex but it became more about rape. As for the Hound, while I like his character and was disappointing to see him break his code and rob someone, the directors had to do something to break the Arya and Hound bond. In the books it comes across clearly that Arya hates the Hound but in the show they developed a bond. Considering that Arya is supposed to callously leave him for dead, it was necessary for the director to show that the Hound isn't just a loveable rouge and in fact can be the biggest sh!t in Westeros who deserves to die. Either they slightly ruin the Hound's character now or they totally do a number on Arya's character in an episode or two.

People need to realise that the internal monologue is so important in the books. If it wasn't for that Arya would appear completely indifferent towards the Hound instead of hating him, and Theon (later on in the show) will seem to be completely under Ramsey's control if they don't change his storyline a bit. It is a necessary evil to convey different characters true feelings towards each other, and to show that certain characters cannot be taken at face value.

Michael D Not Higgins

There was mention of Troy in the other thread when discussing the fight between champions at Meereen. How close they are to the truth of a small band sneaking in and opening the gates.

In the book, I believe Dany is still all pissed off at Jorah and he leads the group through the sewers to make it up to her. In the show it seems like they're just going to have the slaves revolt in the city and open the gates for them. Are they going to bother with the infiltration through the sewers?

TimeToShine

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

There was mention of Troy in the other thread when discussing the fight between champions at Meereen. How close they are to the truth of a small band sneaking in and opening the gates.

In the book, I believe Dany is still all pissed off at Jorah and he leads the group through the sewers to make it up to her. In the show it seems like they're just going to have the slaves revolt in the city and open the gates for them. Are they going to bother with the infiltration through the sewers?

They did the sewer infiltration in the last season.

Michael D Not Higgins

TimeToShine wrote: »

They did the sewer infiltration in the last series.

I'm obviously not paying enough attention!

TimeToShine

Yet another reason to rewatch the series!

Burt Macklin

Was Mereen the city in the books where Dany's army had no siege weapons?
I remember that there was no wood or trees around, and no way of getting over the walls. Then she turned the three ships she had into battering rams to knock down the gates.

I can't remember if that has been done in the show, but maybe that's what they'll do instead of the sewer bit.


Edit: Although I just remembered that she has trebuchets, so probably not

Rosy Posy

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Was Mereen the city in the books where Dany's army had no siege weapons?
I remember that there was no wood or trees around, and no way of getting over the walls. Then she turned the three ships she had into battering rams to knock down the gates.

I can't remember if that has been done in the show, but maybe that's what they'll do instead of the sewer bit.


Edit: Although I just remembered that she has trebuchets, so probably not

Also they seem to have cut Groleo's character and don't mention that she has brought ships with her at all.

Oranage2

Lol I'd say ships ramming a city gate would need a huge budget to create, can't see it happening for something that's pointless anyway.

Mickeroo

Budget constraints and logistics aside, if she had the ships people would get even more frustrated at her not making a beeline for Westeros imo.

Burt Macklin

Groleo has been cut, but I'm nearly sure she still has ships on the show. That's how she got from Quarth to Slaver's Bay at the start of season 3, right?

Regardless, I don't blame the show-watchers for getting frustrated. Dany's story is so removed from everything else, and there's no sign of that changing in the near future.

Although I remember reading an article about season 4 in a magazine (Empire I think) that discussed this. D&D seem to be aware of some reader's frustrations and plan to compress her Mereen storyline as much as possible. The fighting pits showdown could arrive sooner than expected, maybe at the end of this season.

Michael D Not Higgins

Burt Macklin wrote: »

The fighting pits showdown could arrive sooner than expected, maybe at the end of this season.

With her flying off on the dragons back? Not a hope. End of next season maybe.

Paddy Cow

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Groleo has been cut, but I'm nearly sure she still has ships on the show. That's how she got from Quarth to Slaver's Bay at the start of season 3, right?

I thought that Jorah went on a mission to get her ships and that was the reason why he wasn't around when her dragons got stolen? I just assumed he rented them.

Regardless, I don't blame the show-watchers for getting frustrated. Dany's story is so removed from everything else, and there's no sign of that changing in the near future.

I feel bad for show watchers. As a book reader it was very frustration to see her basically throw away her desire for returning to Westeros and replace it with the need to not only free all the slaves but bring justice to where ever the hell she is. She says that she stays in Meereen because she needs to learn how to rule but how she rules in Meereen is going to be drastically different to how she rules in Westeros.

Imagine how non book readers will react to her marrying someone from Meereen??? She did it to try and bring peace to Meereen but it only highlights her naivety and undermines her ambition to conquer the Seven Kingdoms. It would be hard enough for the people of Westeros to accept a queen who comes from across the sea but a queen with a foreign husband? Book readers know how that plan turned out so far but non book readers will really lost the plot when they see how far off course she has gone.

Although I remember reading an article about season 4 in a magazine (Empire I think) that discussed this. D&D seem to be aware of some reader's frustrations and plan to compress her Mereen storyline as much as possible. The fighting pits showdown could arrive sooner than expected, maybe at the end of this season.

I don't see that happening. I know they cut out the brother/sister dwarf act at the Purple Wedding but a big part of the fighting pits was Tyrion and Penny being fed to the lions, with Dany stepping in and putting a stop to that. I don't know how (or if they will) introduce a partner for Tyrion but I don't think they would cut out Tyrion in the fighting pits. There is no way they could progress the story to that stage by the end of season 4 without cutting out a lot of important stuff.

Realistically it will be the middle/end of season 5 before we see that. There is a lot still to happen with current characters in season 4. After that the focus shifts and a lot of new characters are introduced. As a book reader I found it tedious at times but that's just me. It'll be interesting to see how non book readers react to it.

Michael D Not Higgins

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Well maybe I am being a little optimistic, especially given that would end her book arc to date. But I do think that they will cut a lot of the Mereenese knot stuff, so it will be interesting to see how they handle it.

My guess is they'll finish her story this season with the father of the kid killed by the dragon.

Burt Macklin

Well maybe I am being a little optimistic, as that would effectively wrap up her book storyline to date. But I do think that they will cut a lot of the Mereenese knot stuff, so it will be interesting to see how they handle it.

Edit: Sorry for the double post

Paddy Cow

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Well maybe I am being a little optimistic, as that would effectively wrap up her book storyline to date. But I do think that they will cut a lot of the Mereenese knot stuff, so it will be interesting to see how they handle it.

Edit: Sorry for the double post

I think they could get away with focusing more on what is happening in Westeros and reducing her scenes but I don't think they could get away with speeding up her plot line as too many other character arcs are interwoven with hers.

LionelNashe

The Master wrote: »

Stand out moment for me............Aidan Gillen débuts another new accent for Littlefinger....

Watching Calvary right now, he's at it again.

joe123

Who sang the version of the Rains of Castamere at the end of this episode?

Burt Macklin

joe123 wrote: »

Who sang the version of the Rains of Castamere at the end of this episode?

If you mean the end of episode 2, then it was Sigur Ros. They also featured in the episode as the wedding band that Joffrey cut short.