Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 12:02PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

The problem is you're not advocating that every team inevitably declines; you're advocating the fans should just accept it and not complain.

There's "history" and so forth, but we're not talking about financial difficulties or teams around us getting drastically better or whatever; we're talking about how since one man has joined the club, the club has fallen back drastically, and that our "inevitable decline" could be halted pretty quick by sacking Moyes and getting someone else in. Replacing Moyes with a tactically competent manager would turn our "inevitable decline" into a single season blip.

This isn't "history in action"; it's a useless manager way out of his depth. And the fans, regardless of age or how long they've followed the club, are more than allowed to call for the head of the man who has done the damage.

As another poster said, the collapse in form this season is not done to just Moyes. Personally I think there is a lot of deadwood at the club and I think SAF's skill masked this last year by winning the league.

But of course there is a tendancy not to question a squad that has just won the league- they must be brilliant they just won the league.

Look at Leeds in 1992- won the league and collapsed the following year. Same players and manager. Blackburn in 1995- what did they ever do again. Arsenal won the double in 1998- didnt win anything again until 2002.

Winning the league has a tendancy to mask over deeper shortcomings.

I still can't get over how ManU won the league in 2010 even though they sold Ronaldo and Tevez and didnt bring in any replacement!! It was a combination of Rooney, other teams not at the races and SAF getting the best out of his players.

Considering it is pretty much the same squad as last year, how many ManU players would make it onto the Chelsea, ManC team? Rooney and maybe Van Persie.

Yes, time will tell if Moyes was a huge mistake and perhaps he is but I think he should be given another 12 months.

beno619 · 26-03-2014 12:04PM

partyguinness wrote: »

I always said that it is one of the factors. Not the only one. Moyes might have got away with it say 5-6 years ago. As in may only be 8-10 points off the leade.

To be fair, Chelsea and ManC have strengthened their squad considerably this season with new signings. Again another factor, ManU have not strenghtened.

Mata and Fellaini the best players at thier former clubs. Adnan. This is a stronger squad than last season. If you said we havnt strengthened in the right area's you would be correct.

Gatling · 26-03-2014 12:07PM

What's shocking today is looking at the league table were only 5/6 points above Newcastle in 8th and Southampton in 9 a couple more bogey results we could be potentially looking at dropping further down before the season is out ,
100 million won't get very far when we seriously need at least 5 players to come in ,
Cleverly has been bad but when we loose and he isn't the only player there's another 8/9 players just as bad at times ,
Mata was crap ,
Welback was dire even attempted to get himself sent off ,
Rafael personally I thinks he's been great for most part ,up and down the pitch practically every game unlike a lot of players shows some heart when playing ,
Rooney certainly shouldn't be bailing out the back 4 game after game ,
De gea no complaints got Seriously worried when he started hobbling ,

Iused2likebusts · 26-03-2014 12:07PM

I think there are 2 main issues with UTD
1 The squad left to Moyes
DDG
Rafael vidic ferdinand/evans evra
Valencia carrick giggs/scholes young/nani
Rooney Rvp
This is more or less the team that had brought fergie success over the past 2/3 seasons.
Some great players/ world class players with a couple of average players like rafael and the wingers.
The core of the team have all aged together vidic, ferdinand, evra, giggs, scholes, carrick. These players cant drag the average players in your squad over the line anymore as there legs are gone. The likes of rafael, your wingers, smalling, jones, wellbeck can look quite decent in a winning team, but when it is them that need to be the main men they arent up to it. Ferguson has to talk some of the blame for allowing this to happen.

2 Moyes in all his years at everton bar the last season everton never played good football and I never thought his tactics would suit Utd. Many years he played without a forward (Tim cahill) While I think he was right to bring his own coaching staff as that is standard practice. He needed an experienced winning coach alongside him not phil neville and Giggs. Appointing these two was his 1st sign of weakness as they were appointments to get the fans onside.
His 2 signings havent worked but in time I think Mata will turn out to be a great signing. Fellani on the otherhand is not good enough for a team that wants to compete for titles. I couldnt believe he spent 27 million on him. He isnt that young his strengths dont suit Utd and an ageing carrick is still a better DM than him.

Ernest Oreo · 26-03-2014 12:07PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Look at Leeds in 1992- won the league and collapsed the following year. Same players and manager. Blackburn in 1995- what did they ever do again. Arsenal won the double in 1998- didnt win anything again until 2002.

Winning the league has a tendancy to mask over deeper shortcomings.

Leeds in 92 and Blackburn in 95 are not good examples here
blackburn is akin to chelsea-type investment, but with the difference that shortly after winning the league that investment dried up
Leeds in 92 was also a once off
United are on the back of 20 yrs of league dominance

beno619 · 26-03-2014 12:09PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Look at Leeds in 1992- won the league and collapsed the following year. Same players and manager. Blackburn in 1995- what did they ever do again. Arsenal won the double in 1998- didnt win anything again until 2002.

Leeds are before my time, But Arsenal have not dropped out of the top 4 in that time, Blackburn lost Shearer and were competitive the year after they won it ?

As has already been mentioned your beloved Pool finished 2nd after thier last title.

Moyes has taken the club to 7 with a squad that should be competitive.Arsenal,Liverpool, Spurs and Everton do not have better squads imo.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 12:10PM

beno619 wrote: »

Mata and Fellaini the best players at thier former clubs. Adnan. This is a stronger squad than last season. If you said we havnt strengthened in the right area's you would be correct.

Yes, they need centre halves and CM. In fact, there is prob only 5-6 players I would keep.

Of course Scholes retired so just wondering is 1 Fellaini worth 1 Scholes??:D

tallaghtmick · 26-03-2014 12:10PM

PaddyCar wrote: »

Surely Buttner should have got more game time since Evra is suspended against Munich

See that would make sense but we have Moyes in charge.

ericzeking · 26-03-2014 12:13PM

beno619 wrote: »

Evra shouldnt be playing, Buttner was fantastic last time out, regardless of the quality of opposition.

Why was Cleverley recalled for this game ?

Why did we change to a 4-3-3 ?

Why did Cleverley and Fellaini move out to the wings ?

Fallaini was not playing in the same role he has excelled at in the last few games..

Cleverly was recalled for his engine and mobility in midfield, I don't agree with it and would have played Fletcher but there you go that's why he was recalled.
We conceded after 40 seconds and started very slowly so plans obviously had to change.
Fellanin didn't play on the wing, he played more advanced alright than previous games but that is because we were immediately 1-0 down and chasing.
Cleverly played wide to get Mata inside and on the ball...we were one down and needed to get back in the game.
I don't think we played 4-3-3 at any point in the game, not that I saw anyway. In fact our formation was so much of a clusterf*ck at times you couldn't put a label on it.

There were reasons for everything...some I agree with, some I don't...it didn't work out as planned obviously, there were reasons for that too...1-0 down after 40 seconds being the most startling.

Moyes has to take responsibility for a lot, but I'm not gonna come on here with a whinging one liner post of simply he has to go cos we lost. I firmly believe that he is not the sole problem.
I think the only managers that would have given what alot of guys want are Jose and Pep and even with them, nothing is gaurenteed.

Tony EH · 26-03-2014 12:17PM

partyguinness wrote: »

Phew that's a relief...most of the posters here I feel like them to grow up.

I think Moyes was picked with a view to consistency and to replicate SAF and Wenger. But I think those days are gone. That's the old model which I don't think we will see again.

Give Moyes at least another 12 months to see what he can achieve or what direction he is leading the club.

I think Alex Ferguson had TOO much control over who was to replace him as manager of the team and to be perfectly honest, there may have been a bit of pettiness involved on behalf of Ferguson too. There may have been some names on the list that he absolutely did not want to see take over "his" club.

I can't see Moyes getting another 12 months though. The loss to City, even though they are one of the very strongest teams in the league at the moment, and fans turning to "attack" Ferguson may have sealed his fate.

Thing is though, the team are destined to go through a tough period now, no matter who is the manager. It's going to take a huge amount of work to get things back in working order.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 12:18PM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

Leeds in 92 and Blackburn in 95 are not good examples here
blackburn is akin to chelsea-type investment, but with the difference that shortly after winning the league that investment dried up
Leeds in 92 was also a once off
United are on the back of 20 yrs of league dominance

You are quite right ManU have had 20 years of dominance and with form.

But you see, I don't think this is a good ManU squad and winning the league last year disguised this...IMO...that was really the point by comparing Leeds & Blackburn.

That combined with stronger opposition, a new manager who may turn out be a disaster, lack of new signings in the right areas, and certain players who are just not good enough.

For the ManU fans out there, where do you honestly think ManU would be this year if SAF had stayed on and with the exact same players at his disposal?

Lord TSC · 26-03-2014 12:19PM

partyguinness wrote: »

As another poster said, the collapse in form this season is not done to just Moyes. Personally I think there is a lot of deadwood at the club and I think SAF's skill masked this last year by winning the league.

But of course there is a tendancy not to question a squad that has just won the league- they must be brilliant they just won the league.

Of course, that's exactly my line of thinking. :rolleyes:
The squad are playing badly. But they aren't a squad who should be in 7th. There does need to be strengthening of key areas, there does need to be investments. But Moyes has already pumped 65m into the squad and gotten worse since he did, yet people believe another 200m will fix things.

There does need to be a clear out of sorts. I just think that Moyes needs to be top of the list, and someone else entrusted with the job.

But please, keep putting words in my mouth.

Yes, time will tell if Moyes was a huge mistake and perhaps he is but I think he should be given another 12 months.

I'd give him time if I felt he had a clue, if I felt his tactics were spot on but he was having troubles working them cause of player limitations. But he's not. He's had two transfer windows, significant investment (for Man United), a strong squad....but looks clueless.

Genuine question, not trying to be smart....how many Moyes at United games have you seen? From watching games, I can't see how anyone thinks he's displaying the ability to manage a top team. No philosophy, no tactical knowledge, poor team selections, poor substitutions, small team mentality time and time and time again.

Time isn't the issue, and that should be clear to anyone who has watched multiple matches this season and seen how he's trying to run the squad.

bullvine · 26-03-2014 12:22PM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

Leeds in 92 and Blackburn in 95 are not good examples here
blackburn is akin to chelsea-type investment, but with the difference that shortly after winning the league that investment dried up
Leeds in 92 was also a once off
United are on the back of 20 yrs of league dominance

Blackburn 95 title winning team is a very good example actually.

The investment didn't dry up immediately at Blackburn, Brian Kidd spent a lot of money when appointed, the problem with Blackburn was that they replaced Daglish a proven great manager with Ray Harford(I think was his name), he couldnt build on the success and was sacked, think they finished around 7th in 96.

See the similarities!

beno619 · 26-03-2014 12:23PM

ericzeking wrote: »

Moyes has to take responsibility for a lot, but I'm not gonna come on here with a whinging one liner post of simply he has to go cos we lost. I firmly believe that he is not the sole problem.
I think the only managers that would have given what alot of guys want are Jose and Pep and even with them, nothing is gaurenteed.

Moyes is the problem, people burying their head in the sand wont help us. If strange decisions and tactics followed by performances like last night have become a very regular occurrence. You'll come around eventually maybe when we drop into the bottom half of the table or when the like of Hernandez,Kagawa, Nani and Rafa are sold for more Moyes type players.

Are expectations have dropped so much this season its unbelievable.This is Manchester United were talking about.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 12:25PM

beno619 wrote: »

Leeds are before my time, But Arsenal have not dropped out of the top 4 in that time, Blackburn lost Shearer and were competitive the year after they won it ?

As has already been mentioned your beloved Pool finished 2nd after thier last title.

Moyes has taken the club to 7 with a squad that should be competitive.Arsenal,Liverpool, Spurs and Everton do not have better squads imo.

We will just disagree on this but (Spurs aside) I think Arsenal, Liverpool, Man C, Chelsea do have better squads and certainly teams.

From where I am looking, as a neutral. This is a very limited ManU team/squad and the teams above have been playing better and of course Moyes as the manager takes a chunk of the responsibilty.

ps. I am not a Liverpool fan!!!

bangkok · 26-03-2014 12:28PM

buttner is terrible.... Bayern are going to destroy us if we set up like we did last night

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 12:34PM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Of course, that's exactly my line of thinking. :rolleyes:
The squad are playing badly. But they aren't a squad who should be in 7th. There does need to be strengthening of key areas, there does need to be investments. But Moyes has already pumped 65m into the squad and gotten worse since he did, yet people believe another 200m will fix things.

There does need to be a clear out of sorts. I just think that Moyes needs to be top of the list, and someone else entrusted with the job.

But please, keep putting words in my mouth.

I'd give him time if I felt he had a clue, if I felt his tactics were spot on but he was having troubles working them cause of player limitations. But he's not. He's had two transfer windows, significant investment (for Man United), a strong squad....but looks clueless.

Genuine question, not trying to be smart....how many Moyes at United games have you seen? From watching games, I can't see how anyone thinks he's displaying the ability to manage a top team. No philosophy, no tactical knowledge, poor team selections, poor substitutions, small team mentality time and time and time again.

Time isn't the issue, and that should be clear to anyone who has watched multiple matches this season and seen how he's trying to run the squad.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick on that one...but hey...love the ego.

UnitedIrishman · 26-03-2014 12:34PM

Much like Fellaini, Moyes reached his ceiling at Everton. The former may prove me wrong but the latter won't.

Genuinely fearing embarrassment on Tues night. A decade and more of making us feared and revered for sides visiting OT could well be destroyed.

Beardedgenius summed it up right in the Mirror - he just doesn't get the club. Hodgson was the same at Liverpool. Has to go, simple as that.

Iused2likebusts · 26-03-2014 12:35PM

beno619 wrote: »

Mata and Fellaini the best players at thier former clubs. Adnan. This is a stronger squad than last season. If you said we havnt strengthened in the right area's you would be correct.

I dont think its a better squad vidic, ferdinand, evra and carrick 3 of your top 6 players have declined pretty dramatically due to age. Fellani is no improvement on who you already had. Mata was signed more than halfway through the season and isnt being utilised properly anyway. Adnan will be great for yiz in time but take the sunderland game out and there has been little or no end product. RVP chances are also had the best season he will ever have in a utd shirt last year slightly due to age and being injury prone.
DDG to my mind is the only player that has improved this year and is the best keeper in the league now I feel.

beno619 · 26-03-2014 12:39PM

bangkok wrote: »

buttner is terrible.... Bayern are going to destroy us if we set up like we did last night

Based on what his 5 appearances, last time out he was impressive no ? Apart from playing someone onside when he came on earlier in the season he has been head and shoulders above Evra with his performances.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 12:41PM

Felliani can't be any worse that Veron, Djemba-Djemba, Klieberson those notable Ferguson signings.

Backstreet Moyes · 26-03-2014 12:41PM

United financially are too strong to drop away like Liverpool did. I just can;t understand this season at all i fail to see how any manager with qualifications couldn't finish in the top 4 with United's squad.

The best thing is for him to go and bring in somebody until the end of the season to have a look at what they want to do in the summer.

8-10 · 26-03-2014 12:43PM

partyguinness wrote: »

We will just disagree on this but (Spurs aside) I think Arsenal, Liverpool, Man C, Chelsea do have better squads and certainly teams.

From where I am looking, as a neutral. This is a very limited ManU team/squad and the teams above have been playing better and of course Moyes as the manager takes a chunk of the responsibilty.

ps. I am not a Liverpool fan!!!

United have a better squad that Liverpool and arsenal

Cantona's Collars · 26-03-2014 12:43PM

partyguinness wrote: »

We will just disagree on this but (Spurs aside) I think Arsenal, Liverpool, Man C, Chelsea do have better squads and certainly teams.

From where I am looking, as a neutral. This is a very limited ManU team/squad and the teams above have been playing better and of course Moyes as the manager takes a chunk of the responsibilty.

ps. I am not a Liverpool fan!!!

Liverpool don't have a better team,yes they have Suarez & Sturrige playing out of their skins but apart from that not even the most die hard Liverpool fan would proclaim that they have a team of great players.
The difference is that Rodgers has a philosophy and a style of play that they believe in and follow it through.High tempo attacks and swift ball movement,qualities that United used to have.
Look at how Gerard has moved into the role that Carrick is playing in but still combines that role with movement and speed of ball movement.We don't have that anymore and any thoughts of swift movement of the ball from defence through midfield disappear with Carricks insistence on taking time on the ball.
I derided Henderson before as limited but playing in Rodgers system serves him well where they need players willing to run & close down,our players in comparison seem lazy & just stand off & watch the other team play the ball around rather than try to win it back,too much passing the buck amongst certain characters in our team.

keeponhurling · 26-03-2014 12:45PM

beno619 wrote: »

Based on what his 5 appearances, last time out he was impressive no ? Apart from playing someone onside when he came on earlier in the season he has been head and shoulders above Evra with his performances.

When Buttner played against WH I thought that meant he'd get the nod for Bayern, in Evra's absense.

But the more I think of it, it's no sure thing.

I wouldn't see overly shocked to see Cleverly, Fletcher, Carrick, Welbeck or some other wild-card selection at left back. Giggs has played there before.

bangkok · 26-03-2014 12:46PM

beno619 wrote: »

Based on what his 5 appearances, last time out he was impressive no ? Apart from playing someone onside when he came on earlier in the season he has been head and shoulders above Evra with his performances.

not a chance... hes been mostly awful anytime he has played. Swansea in the fa cup..... sunderland in the league cup... buttner against robben scares me!!

bangkok · 26-03-2014 12:47PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

When Buttner played against WH I thought that meant he'd get the nod for Bayern, in Evra's absense.

But the more I think of it, it's no sure thing.

I wouldn't see overly shocked to see Cleverly, Fletcher, Carrick, Welbeck or some other wild-card selection at left back. Giggs has played there before.

im the same, wouldn't be surprised if Rafael is actually put there as robben likes to cut onto his left foot, perfect for a right footer to be marking him that side....

keeponhurling · 26-03-2014 12:48PM

Nuts102 wrote: »

United financially are too strong to drop away like Liverpool did. .

And in theory, if you win the league by 11 points, then spend an extra 65 million (85 million if you count Zaha) with no significant departures, then you should have a very strong team.

Does the name David Moyes ring a bell?

Lord TSC · 26-03-2014 12:49PM

bangkok wrote: »

not a chance... hes been mostly awful anytime he has played. Swansea in the fa cup..... sunderland in the league cup... buttner against robben scares me!!

As opposed to an out of position, just back from injury central defender? Or are we shifting Raf over and letting Val expose our right back.?

keeponhurling · 26-03-2014 12:50PM

bangkok wrote: »

im the same, wouldn't be surprised if Rafael is actually put there as robben likes to cut onto his left foot, perfect for a right footer to be marking him that side....

Good call.
Could be Rafael left back, maybe Valencia right back.

Or if Vidic is back for the Bayern game, himself and Rio centre, Phil Jones at full back.

Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

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