Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:21AM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Fair play if those teams happily saw themselves drop off.

As Man United, we expect a high standard and won't be happy to see us decline.

As for the "Shure look,he needs time, shure Fergie got it", this is another problem; we're not allowed compare Fergie to Moyes cause Fergie was a miracle worker who could make a 7th place team win the league....but at the same time, we should compare Moyes to Fergie cause Fergie had a rough start too.

Here's the thing; time worked for Fergie. Doesn't mean it will work for Moyes. Some people are so desperate for the romanticism of a bygone era, they are allowing it to blind themselves to the fact that Moyes is never going to be as good as Fergie. No tactical awareness, no PR ability and now now ability to motivate people in games that provide their own motivation.

If Fergie had appointed the Tea Lady and said "She needs time", we wouldn't accept it. Sometimes appointments are wrong, and being stubborn won't make things better.

Of course you don't want to decline and want high standards but history has shown that it is inevitable that when there was been dramatic change at a club that there will be a period of transition.

Every successful club has gone through this and ManU are not so special as to rewrite history. Why is that so hard to grasp?

I appreciate that this may be difficult to accept and sure if Moyes is no better off this time next year and no defined way forward or structure, then yes, time to go.

Al Capwned · 26-03-2014 11:22AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

ah i wouldnt be that familiar with the history before 1990
anyways, football has changed hugely in last 25 yrs so some of those records etc are now a little irrelevant

Ridiculous!!
Just because football has changed, doesn't mean that records are irrelevant!

Are Madrid's first 5 European Cups irrelevant to them?
Is United's 68 win irrelevant to you?
Liverpool's dominance in the 80's - is that irrelevant to their supporters?
Alan Sunderland's winner for Arsenal in the 79 cup final, or Norman Whiteside's in 1985 - Are both those strikes, and the trophies they won irrelevant??

Just because all of these things (and countless more) happened before you were out of nappies doesn't make them worth any less to the history of the game, the players, the clubs and their supporters...

And just because you aren't familiar with the clubs history before 1990 (all 112 years of it!!!!!!!) doesn't make it any less relevant to those supporters, who like me, who are proud of the history and tradition of Manchester United.

:mad:

Delboy5 · 26-03-2014 11:23AM

Anyone know what this "1992 Coup" is thats being mentioned on twitter?
92 player power to force Moyes out?

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:24AM

Morzadec wrote: »

Has he shown anything to suggest he could work out in the medium/long term?

Is he trying to impose his own philosophy/system on the team? Is it just a question of the players adapting to these new methods?

Does anyone believe this?

As to your point of teams struggling after a lingterm manager leaves - perhaps, but not ot this extent. Fans might have been able to stomach a 10-15 point drop off. But a 20-25 point drop (which will probably be the case)?

I think the drop off has been made worse by the exceptionally strong competition this year. SAF never had so many strong teams to contend with. But obviously that is the challenge for Moyes and Manu

Fishyfreak · 26-03-2014 11:24AM

partyguinness wrote: »

For example, look at the team in 1999, lets be honest- Gary Neville, Johnson, Butt, Blomquist, May, Giggs, Beckham. Hardly names that are going to stand the test of time in terms of the greats of world football.

I stopped reading here.

Cookiemunster · 26-03-2014 11:27AM

partyguinness wrote: »

Of course you don't want to decline and want high standards but history has shown that it is inevitable that when there was been dramatic change at a club that there will be a period of transition.

Every successful club has gone through this and ManU are not so special as to rewrite history. Why is that so hard to grasp?

I appreciate that this may be difficult to accept and sure if Moyes is no better off this time next year and no defined way forward or structure, then yes, time to go.

What you don't seem to get is that Utd were champions last season and are in 7th now 20 pts off the lead. No matter who the manager is, this should not happen in less than a year. We were all expecting transition, but that meant not winning the league for a few seasons, not collapsing overnight.

Ernest Oreo · 26-03-2014 11:27AM

partyguinness wrote: »

I think the drop off has been made worse by the exceptionally strong competition this year. SAF never had so many strong teams to contend with. But obviously that is the challenge for Moyes and Manu

dude you're wrong once again.
'so many strong teams to contend with' - who are these exactly.
sure chelsea and liverpool are better organised this year, but its certainly not like they're suddenly top european sides
city have an amazing squad, and added to it well during the summer. but neither are they a patch on Bayern or RM

martingriff · 26-03-2014 11:29AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

hard for me to support a team before i was born though really.
anyways i jumped on the bandwagon well before we had a trophy cabinet - 1988

How could you be supporting a team before you were out of nappies 1988

markcahill1985 · 26-03-2014 11:30AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Still talking rubbish I see. He took the Bayern job around Christmas 2012. Fergie announced he was going last April and admitted he told nobody about it before March. So how could Pep have turned down a job that he was never offered?

May be adding 2+2 and getting 5 but it was well publicised that Pep and SAF had a number of meetings in New York while Pep was on his year out. I belive SAF was trying to get Pep to Utd at this time and he decided not to and to go to Bayern (he may already have accepted the Bayern jon long before it was announced). He also told Gill a long time before April that he was going and Mourinho also claimed to have known with months.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:30AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What you don't seem to get is that Utd were champions last season and are in 7th now 20 pts off the lead. No matter who the manager is, this should not happen in less than a year. We were all expecting transition, but that meant not winning the league for a few seasons, not collapsing overnight.

Read my first post earlier which is my take on why ManU have not been at the races this year, I am not repeating it.

Mate you need to take 5...;)

Agueroooo · 26-03-2014 11:31AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

Guardiola has always said it would be a dream to manage united
it is his 2nd preference after Barca
that is why united messed up so severely here
the timing could have worked perfectly if Gill and SAF thought it through properly

i suspect SAF didnt want guardiola in right away so was happier to resign when pep was safely tucked away at Bayern. and SAF basically destroyed the mourinho application singlehandedly. ego is an important issue here.
he is the greatest manager we have ever had but his final play of the cards might have destroyed the club in the short to medium term.

question:

Give me one valid reason why Guardiola would leave Bayern to manage Utd?

look Moyes is going nowhere.

there are too many big personalties (and necks stuck out) on the Utd board for anyone to recommend he gets the boot at seasons end. which he really should btw.

this is a collective cock-up with a number of factors/people thrown into the pot.
Moyes wont be the only one holding his head in shame thus the responsibility will be shared, and Moyes will survive.
all this talk yesterday by the likes of Bobby Charlton was a front loading cause (imo) they predicted they would get beaten last night.

I expect Moyes to get the funding and players in the summer.
he will then be out on his own, and if the status-quo does not change next season, and the bad results continue (after he has reinforced the squad) then this time next season David Moyes will not be in the job.

really is no point in getting hopes up that he Moyes will be sacked - he wont (yet)

Tony EH · 26-03-2014 11:33AM

buckfasterer wrote: »

I've heard more Liverpool fans talking about the game than anyone else. It's not that they're laughing either.....it's a sense of disbelief about the tactics, players and wondering how it's gone so wrong so quick.

Well, I'm a Liverpool fan (I'll get that out of the way first) and you're correct, most Liverpool fans cannot believe the rate of implosion that's happened at the club. But, it's not just Liverpool fans talking about it. It's everyone interested in football.

However, everyone knew that the team was going to go through some level of difficulty after Ferguson left. He'd stamped his mark so solidly on the club for so long, that it was always going to be really hard for anyone to come in an take over. Also, the team DOES need some rebuilding and always would have, even if Ferguson had stayed in charge. I think this season would have been a difficult one for Utd in any case. Not as bad as it's been, but I'm not sure that they would have been title contenders this year. Top four, yes, but it's been a good season this year for the teams at the top. I still think it'll be City or Chelseas' title, either way.

As for Moyes, it's clear to almost everyone (except Ray Wilkins it seems) that he's not the man for the job and it's scary how similar the situation is with Utd this year, as it was with Liverpool under Roy Hodgeson. Both seem like nice enough, likeable, guys, but they simply are not able to gel with the team under them.

That being said, the actual players have a LOT to answer for as well. At times they've been an absolute disgrace and that cannot go unsaid. There have been matches where they just don't seem to care and for a club like Utd, that's a terrible indictment.

It's simply wrong to place the entire blame on the manager for a disaster of this proportion. There's plenty of blame to go around.

On another note, I'm feeling really sorry for David Moyes at the moment. That probably sounds weird coming from a Liverpool fan, when talking about a man involved with their two biggest rival clubs. But, he looks like he's under the most incredible pressure, it's hard not to sympathise. The man looks like he's really aged over the last year. For his own healths sake it might be better if he and the club part ways in the Summer.

But, make no mistake, there's something not right at Man Utd, at the moment and it isn't just David Moyes.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:35AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

dude you're wrong once again.
'so many strong teams to contend with' - who are these exactly.
sure chelsea and liverpool are better organised this year, but its certainly not like they're suddenly top european sides
city have an amazing squad, and added to it well during the summer. but neither are they a patch on Bayern or RM

So I am 'wrong' about Chelsea, Liverpool etc being better competition this year but then you just go and back up my point by saying they are better organised this year....riiiight...that has sure put me in my place...:rolleyes:

Cantona's Collars · 26-03-2014 11:37AM

The videos of Schole's post match comments are on youtube,he said it'll take time & mentioned the fact our old guard in the backline are going.He got a dig in over Mata not being played in the proper position.He was brutally honest in his observations though,the one bit that cheered me up was when he was asked about Arsenal,especially Golden Boy Wilshere.

Moyes still hasn't grasped the concept of United being expected to go out to win games.He still believes in playing a containment game against the big clubs,all well & good doing that if you've the team set up properly for fast counter attacks.How many players with genuine pace & the ability to move the ball forward quickly do we have? Carrick,stop,take a touch & pass sideways.Cleverly: the same. Fellaini,bit more mobile but clumsy. Valencia,run,stop & pass back or smash the ball against the fullback.Hardly a quartet you can say will break & score a goal within 15 seconds of being under pressure in your own box.
I'm sure many remember us defending corners & in the blink of an eye we are tearing up the pitch & scoring at the other end.Now it's,hack it clear & prepare to defend the next attack.

On the subject of defending:
I honestly hope Rio has a Neville like realisation that he can't hack it anymore,a cruise ship would turn quicker than him.2 goals he was shocking for,even when Toure scored he just made a token move and seemed resigned to the fact that a goal was coming.

Ernest Oreo · 26-03-2014 11:38AM

partyguinness wrote: »

So I am 'wrong' about Chelsea, Liverpool etc being better competition this year but then you just go and back up my point by saying they are better organised this year....riiiight...that has sure put me in my place...:rolleyes:

my point is - yes they are better organised but not suddenly world beaters that stroll into Old Trafford and claim 3 points without breaking a sweat (which is what happened this year).
United finishing 7/8 this year is not down primarily to other teams strengthening, but united have collapsed under Moyes. end of story imo

Ernest Oreo · 26-03-2014 11:41AM

Agueroooo wrote: »

question:

Give me one valid reason why Guardiola would leave Bayern to manage Utd?

look Moyes is going nowhere.

there are too many big personalties (and necks stuck out) on the Utd board for anyone to recommend he gets the boot at seasons end. which he really should btw.

this is a collective cock-up with a number of factors/people thrown into the pot.
Moyes wont be the only one holding his head in shame thus the responsibility will be shared, and Moyes will survive.
all this talk yesterday by the likes of Bobby Charlton was a front loading cause (imo) they predicted they would get beaten last night.

I expect Moyes to get the funding and players in the summer.
he will then be out on his own, and if the status-quo does not change next season, and the bad results continue (after he has reinforced the squad) then this time next season David Moyes will not be in the job.

really is no point in getting hopes up that he Moyes will be sacked - he wont (yet)

of course Pep is going no where now
my point was that if he was advised back in Oct / Nov / Dec 12 that SAF was hanging up his boots the following summer, then he would have politely told the Germans 'thanks but no thanks'

Neeson · 26-03-2014 11:41AM

I suppose you have to realise these things happen in cycles. In a few years time things may come good again. Liverpool were good in the 80's then died off for 20 or so years. It might be the same with Manchester United. So it's just a cycle is all. I suppose you have to take the good with the bad.

Ernest Oreo · 26-03-2014 11:42AM

Neeson wrote: »

I suppose you have to realise these things happen in cycles. In a few years time things may come good again. Liverpool were good in the 80's then died off for 20 or so years. It might be the same with Manchester United. So it's just a cycle is all. I suppose you have to take the good with the bad.

sorry, but that doesnt make sense here.
imo

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:42AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, I'm a Liverpool fan (I'll get that out of the way first) and you're correct, most Liverpool fans cannot believe the rate of implosion that's happened at the club. But, it's not just Liverpool fans talking about it. It's everyone interested in football.

However, everyone knew that the team was going to go through some level of difficulty after Ferguson left. He'd stamped his mark so solidly on the club for so long, that it was always going to be really hard for anyone to come in an take over. Also, the team DOES need some rebuilding and always would have, even if Ferguson had stayed in charge. I think this season would have been a difficult one for Utd in any case. Not as bad as it's been, but I'm not sure that they would have been title contenders this year. Top four, yes, but it's been a good season this year for the teams at the top. I still think it'll be City or Chelseas' title, either way.

As for Moyes, it's clear to almost everyone (except Ray Wilkins it seems) that he's not the man for the job and it's scary how similar the situation is with Utd this year, as it was with Liverpool under Roy Hodgeson. Both seem like nice enough, likeable, guys, but they simply are able to gel with the team under them.

That being said, the actual players have a LOT to answer for as well. At times they've been an absolute disgrace and that cannot go unsaid. There have been matches where they just don't seem to care and for a club like Utd, that's a terrible indictment.

It's simply wrong to place the entire blame on the manager for a disaster of this proportion. There's plenty of blame to go around.

On another note, I'm feeling really sorry for David Moyes at the moment. That probably sounds weird coming from a Liverpool fan, when talking about a man involved with their two biggest rival clubs. But, he looks like he's under the most incredible pressure, it's hard not to sympathise. The man looks like he's really aged over the last year. For his own healths sake it might be better if he and the club part ways in the Summer.

But, make no mistake, there's something not right at Man Utd, at the moment and it isn't just David Moyes.

Phew that's a relief...most of the posters here I feel like them to grow up.

I think Moyes was picked with a view to consistency and to replicate SAF and Wenger. But I think those days are gone. That's the old model which I don't think we will see again.

Give Moyes at least another 12 months to see what he can achieve or what direction he is leading the club.

K-9 · 26-03-2014 11:42AM

Chelsea and City aren't going to stand still over the Summer either, nothing in happens in isolation obviously.

I don't know, was this team a 6/7th placed team last season and Fergie and a fit RVP were the differences to win a title? I don't see it as that big a difference, maybe a challenge for 4th level at worst team.

Maybe it's a combination of disinterested older players who've won it all anyway, plus a manager that looks increasingly out of his depth. As others said, I don't see the logic for keeping him. If things were improving there'd be an argument to keep him, but it seems 1 step forward and 2 steps back, even as all the excuses are starting to run out.

Cookiemunster · 26-03-2014 11:43AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

my point is - yes they are better organised but not suddenly world beaters that stroll into Old Trafford and claim 3 points without breaking a sweat (which is what happened this year).
United finishing 7/8 this year is not down primarily to other teams strengthening, but united have collapsed under Moyes. end of story imo

He doesn't seem to get this one salient point. Even if the others have inproved (they have but not by that much) it still doesn't explain the results against everyone else.

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:44AM

Neeson wrote: »

I suppose you have to realise these things happen in cycles. In a few years time things may come good again. Liverpool were good in the 80's then died off for 20 or so years. It might be the same with Manchester United. So it's just a cycle is all. I suppose you have to take the good with the bad.

"Oh but this is ManU things like that dont happen to us. We have high standards. We dont care what the last 150 years of football shows us. We are special...rabble rabble"

Lord TSC · 26-03-2014 11:44AM

partyguinness wrote: »

Of course you don't want to decline and want high standards but history has shown that it is inevitable that when there was been dramatic change at a club that there will be a period of transition.

Every successful club has gone through this and ManU are not so special as to rewrite history. Why is that so hard to grasp?

I appreciate that this may be difficult to accept and sure if Moyes is no better off this time next year and no defined way forward or structure, then yes, time to go.

The problem is you're not advocating that every team inevitably declines; you're advocating the fans should just accept it and not complain.

There's "history" and so forth, but we're not talking about financial difficulties or teams around us getting drastically better or whatever; we're talking about how since one man has joined the club, the club has fallen back drastically, and that our "inevitable decline" could be halted pretty quick by sacking Moyes and getting someone else in. Replacing Moyes with a tactically competent manager would turn our "inevitable decline" into a single season blip.

This isn't "history in action"; it's a useless manager way out of his depth. And the fans, regardless of age or how long they've followed the club, are more than allowed to call for the head of the man who has done the damage.

beno619 · 26-03-2014 11:46AM

bangkok wrote: »

well the back 4 was forced upon him....

vidic suspended, smalling and evans injured.

midfield is a joke anyway very poor so no matter who he picked there city were always going to come out on top.

rooney picks himself really so its not really giving moyes many options.

and after last night I have finally decided that fellaini is not a united player. good against the likes of west ham and stoke, shocking against better teams and should have been sent off

ericzeking wrote: »

No I don't, and I've criticised him for it...for sticking with Evra...for sticking with Rio and Vidic, Vidic as captain, although these are more excusable since Smalling and Evans are injured and for failing to give RVP the required clip round the ear when he throws a strop and being afraid to take him off...

Evra shouldnt be playing, Buttner was fantastic last time out, regardless of the quality of opposition.

Why was Cleverley recalled for this game ?

Why did we change to a 4-3-3 ?

Why did Cleverley and Fellaini move out to the wings ?

Fallaini was not playing in the same role he has excelled at in the last few games..

partyguinness · 26-03-2014 11:49AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

my point is - yes they are better organised but not suddenly world beaters that stroll into Old Trafford and claim 3 points without breaking a sweat (which is what happened this year).
United finishing 7/8 this year is not down primarily to other teams strengthening, but united have collapsed under Moyes. end of story imo

I always said that it is one of the factors. Not the only one. Moyes might have got away with it say 5-6 years ago. As in may only be 8-10 points off the leade.

To be fair, Chelsea and ManC have strengthened their squad considerably this season with new signings. Again another factor, ManU have not strenghtened.

Al Capwned · 26-03-2014 11:54AM

I'm sad.

8-10 · 26-03-2014 11:55AM

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

but sure we've never finished outside the top 4 before

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

hard for me to support a team before i was born though really.
anyways i jumped on the bandwagon well before we had a trophy cabinet - 1988

So you should surely remember finishing 11th in 1989, 13th in 1990, 6th in 1991?

slingerz · 26-03-2014 11:55AM

K-9 wrote: »

Chelsea and City aren't going to stand still over the Summer either, nothing in happens in isolation obviously.

I don't know, was this team a 6/7th placed team last season and Fergie and a fit RVP were the differences to win a title? I don't see it as that big a difference, maybe a challenge for 4th level at worst team.

Maybe it's a combination of disinterested older players who've won it all anyway, plus a manager that looks increasingly out of his depth. As others said, I don't see the logic for keeping him. If things were improving there'd be an argument to keep him, but it seems 1 step forward and 2 steps back, even as all the excuses are starting to run out.

Neither will Liverpool and Arsenal or indeed Spurs. And that is just in England, you should factor in the likes of PSG, Monaco, Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Madrid and the Italian clubs. Not having the CL may be another factor affecting UTD this summer as well. Not as much as it had affected the likes of Liverpool in attracting players as they were out of CL for an extended period but should UTD finish next season outside of the top 4 places then attracting players will become increasingly difficult

Cantona's Collars · 26-03-2014 11:59AM

Like him or not,Souness made a fair point about United last night,you can't measure time in football in years anymore,it's all about the transfer windows.Make mistakes there or not get the players you want then things become very difficult.

Moyes has had 2 windows now but hasn't addressed the glaring deficiencies in our team,yes Mata is class but is now playing out of position.How many #10's do we need? It's the glaring lack of quality in the middle third of the field that's been the long term problem,it's akin to having a car with a dodgy engine but instead of fixing it you go out & buy new wheels for it instead.

PaddyCar · 26-03-2014 12:00PM

Surely Buttner should have got more game time since Evra is suspended against Munich

Manchester United Superthread 2014 Mod warning Post #1880 #2613

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