A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 07:25PM

chippers wrote: »

No it doesn't work in every field of human endeavour.

Performance related pay for social workers....

In every occupation there is already an unofficial measurement in operation. Every teacher in any school knows who the best and worst teachers are and could probably hazard a guess as to why.

Similarly with social workers . The difference is there are no consequences to such measurements , but there could/should be

Performance related can be as simple as you must see and report on a minimum number of clients per week to you must produce a 1000 widgets per hour on this machine with a 0.005% tolerance.

And the more information collected the more refined the system becomes.

chippers · 11-03-2014 07:32PM

marienbad wrote: »

Performance related can be as simple as you must see and report on a minimum number of clients per week to you must produce a 1000 widgets per hour on this machine with a 0.005% tolerance.

It saddens me to see that the system is actually already moving in this direction. A friend who is a social worker recently told me that the terminology they use has changed and that they no longer deal with people and they now deal with clients. For each client they have to create a business plan.

Sounds great but the result is more paperwork and ass covering and less time spent helping people. Having a business model for a school doesn't work as can be seen in the UK.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 07:47PM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

What defines a good teacher?

I work in a DEIS school where a lot of students have behavioural, emotional and learning difficulties.
My exam classes got mostly Ds and Cs in the Junior/Leaving Cert exams.
This was a huge achievement for them.

Will I be considered an under-performing teacher based on my results?
After all, the results from the grammar school down the road were mostly As and Bs.

That'd me me out of a job so!

Can you explain how it would work?

You absolutely would not be considered an underperforming teacher and in fact in most other areas you would be paid significantly extra for choosing to work in a more difficult part of the profession.

As I said it is not my field but I brought it up so I will give it a go. Initially in might be a fairly crude measure biased in favour of the teachers and pupils . And as more data is accumulated - across other teachers in the same school, across other schools in similar circumstances nationally and across similar schools internationally .

As soon a reasonable database is available the system would be continuously reviewed and revised .

One thing that would never,ever happen is to be compared to,measured against any school not in the same circumstances .

marienbad · 11-03-2014 07:51PM

chippers wrote: »

It saddens me to see that the system is actually already moving in this direction. A friend who is a social worker recently told me that the terminology they use has changed and that they no longer deal with people and they now deal with clients. For each client they have to create a business plan.

Sounds great but the result is more paperwork and ass covering and less time spent helping people. Having a business model for a school doesn't work as can be seen in the UK.

A rose by any other name ...

What is wrong with accountability ? It is not as if social services in Ireland have a glowing track record ?

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 08:01PM

marienbad wrote: »

A rose by any other name ...

What is wrong with accountability ? It is not as if social services in Ireland have a glowing track record ?

yes obviously those pesky social workers need a good paycut to sort the system out.

Students are not widgets btw.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 08:04PM

Armelodie wrote: »

yes obviously those pesky social workers need a good paycut to sort the system out.

Students are not widgets btw.

Why the deliberate misreading ?

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 08:25PM

marienbad wrote: »

Why the deliberate misreading ?

Well what are you proposing to measure exactly?

Oh yes I see now, you probably meant that social services aren't performing well because of teachers pay...

Anyway marienbad what DO you propose is a fair wage for a teacher after thirty odd years service? 65k is obviously too much for you ..we get that...and I would presume you would accept that paying a teacher with such service the starting rate of 30k would be illogical. Please pick a number between 30k and 65k....31k maybe enough. Bare in mind teaching is supposed to be a profession. What do professionals in other occupations make these days?

poolsandles · 11-03-2014 08:25PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

How do you decide who under performs?
Results? So, the well heeled school that cherry picks and has parents who can and do pay for grinds get better results than a school where there is little support from home and no money for extra tuition , which teachers "perform" better?

I work in learning support with children with different educational needs, if they don't go from a standard score of 70 in literacy to 110 in a term ,do I get docked wages?

+1 to this.

Grinds schools, schools in wealthy areas, schools where parents take a keen interest in their child's education will have superior results to for example a DEIS school in a disadvantaged area. For these children, coming to school is a big achievement for them. Does that mean their teacher is under performing because their results don't match up nationally? Of course it doesn't!

People not working in education forget that we are talking about children here. They are young, impressionable and some of them quite vulnerable, troubled, with special needs etc. No matter how much people want to fit them into a certain category it does not work. No two children are the same. For example Learning Support Teachers and Resource Teachers across the country are all dealing with a huge variety of children with huge varieties of need. How would these teachers be assessed??

It's not as simple as the general public want it to be.

To get back on topic, this is another reason I would advise people considering teaching to stay away from it. You are constantly on the defensive to the public who think they all know how you should do your job, how teachers should be made accountable etc. when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 08:48PM

I wonder are they having the same problem with the underperforming teachers in Finland since their last disastrous PISA results.

Given that Ireland moved up in the tables I think we are due a payrise.

Performance management and all that...

marienbad · 11-03-2014 09:00PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Well what are you proposing to measure exactly?

Oh yes I see now, you probably meant that social services aren't performing well because of teachers pay...

Anyway marienbad what DO you propose is a fair wage for a teacher after thirty odd years service? 65k is obviously too much for you ..we get that...and I would presume you would accept that paying a teacher with such service the starting rate of 30k would be illogical. Please pick a number between 30k and 65k....31k maybe enough. Bare in mind teaching is supposed to be a profession. What do professionals in other occupations make these days?

How about you take the European average and benchmark against that , add a couple of % points if you like.

I don't see how anyone can be paid twice the pay of a colleague for exactly the same job. Just staying in the same position year after year and getting incremental pay is just ridiculous.

The more difficult the class the higher the pay should be the rule.

You mentioned accountancy already - that is also a profession - but there you are paid based on how good you are not how long you are doing it.
So you could be on 35k after 30 years or on 6ok after 10.

I have no problem with high pay for top performers ,I do have a problem with high pay for mediocre ones , and so should you.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 09:01PM

poolsandles wrote: »

+1 to this.

Grinds schools, schools in wealthy areas, schools where parents take a keen interest in their child's education will have superior results to for example a DEIS school in a disadvantaged area. For these children, coming to school is a big achievement for them. Does that mean their teacher is under performing because their results don't match up nationally? Of course it doesn't!

People not working in education forget that we are talking about children here. They are young, impressionable and some of them quite vulnerable, troubled, with special needs etc. No matter how much people want to fit them into a certain category it does not work. No two children are the same. For example Learning Support Teachers and Resource Teachers across the country are all dealing with a huge variety of children with huge varieties of need. How would these teachers be assessed??

It's not as simple as the general public want it to be.

To get back on topic, this is another reason I would advise people considering teaching to stay away from it. You are constantly on the defensive to the public who think they all know how you should do your job, how teachers should be made accountable etc. when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Are all teachers equally as good ?

marienbad · 11-03-2014 09:07PM

Armelodie wrote: »

I wonder are they having the same problem with the underperforming teachers in Finland since their last disastrous PISA results.

Given that Ireland moved up in the tables I think we are due a payrise.

Performance management and all that...

Well if they paid less to bad teachers and thus had more for good teachers they might also improve.

poolsandles · 11-03-2014 09:31PM

marienbad wrote: »

Are all teachers equally as good ?

No they are not. I don't know a fair way of dealing with under performing teachers. I do however strongly disagree with assessment by results as I argued in my previous post. It's very difficult to decide on a way to assess teachers. There are too many variables involved as I have already mentioned.

Do you mean Learning Support and Resource Teachers specifically or all teachers in general?

amacca · 11-03-2014 09:55PM

marienbad wrote: »

How about you take the European average and benchmark against that , add a couple of % points if you like.

How about we properly take into account other countries purchasing power vs ours (averages have a horrible way of being a silly way to decide on a lot of things)

In the interests of fairness we should probably take into account the level of taxation that comes out of teachers gross pay (just like everybody else) in this country vs EU average

We should probably also take into account we have one of the highest class contact times in Europe

Might be an idea to compare average class sizes

Could be good to take note that we get no credit for all the prep/correcting etc we have to do on top of our class contact hours. This is built into teachers in other countries contracted hours, so they are not constantly thought to just working their contact hours.

How about we acknowledge the very poor disciplinary backup in this country and the necessity to deal with/put up with ongoing disciplinary problems because everyone has the right to education but no one parents included have any responsibilities - the only person with all the responsibilities in our system is the teacher - We have been subtly made responsible for things that should never be our responsibility

How about we acknowledge that there are no minimum compulsory standards in this country for students (Obviously SEN should be exempted) that help focus students on what they should be doing in class - Eg: In some countries if you don't meet a minimum requirement you are required to do the year again until you do meet the requirement (That tends to reduce down the amount of time spent dealing with constant talking, abusive behaviour, continually forgetting materials, making no effort to follow instructions/listen etc that is becoming the norm for an increasing cohort of students.

Also possibly something to consider that many other countries don't seem to engage in close to the amount of voluntary (unpaid/uncompensated) extra curricular I see happening in any school I've been into in this country - I'll admit I can't be entirely sure of this but anecdotally (which admittedly is not a great way to debate) in many schools in England its just a job and when quitting time comes teachers treat it like that and go home. I mean fair enough if you want it to be just a job but don't expect people to go over and above which I think many people do (in my school at least)

Another thing to consider is that unless you want to become a principal or deputy (and we can't all be those) there are effectively very few ways to progress upwards in the "profession" in this island and that goes doubly now with gradual reduction of A and B posts (which placed too many demands for too little rewards imo) Thats a sacrifice vs other countries

There are numerous other things to take into account if we are in the business of comparing apples with apples and if you say we can quantify teacher performance then I say there is no reason we can't quantify and take these into account.

Thing is if we did I reckon teachers pay wouldn't be altered a hell of a lot, it might even be increased or else the problems with the system might be addressed to make a more equitable system for all.

But lets face it unless we are very naive thats not whats going happen. Bullyboys like Quinn and talking heads will continue to shoot from the hip because its a popular thing to do or they can make their name from it and decisions will be made not on the basis of whats best for students or teachers (and certainly not linking the welfare of one group to another) ……they will be made on the basis of how much money can be squeezed out of the system, how much votes can be garnered or how much of a name for themselves the minister can make so the can carry that reputation on to a cushy new position all the while not giving a flying fword about you, me the students or anyone else.

Afroshack · 11-03-2014 10:09PM

marienbad wrote: »

Well if they paid less to bad teachers and thus had more for good teachers they might also improve.

How on earth does one measure a 'bad' teacher?

A teacher with lower grades than other teachers?
A teacher who doesn't use active learning enough?
A teacher who doesn't use AFL every 10 minutes to check learning?
A teacher who doesn't know all of her students backgrounds, families or take a significant interest in their lives and well-being? Measured how exactly?
A teacher without a masters?
A teacher with the most behavioural problems on record?

In all honesty, the only way I think a school can accuratley suss out their teachers is to have random walk-ins during class for 3 or 4 minutes at a time to get a feel for how the teacher works in a classroom. Have regular observations with feedback and check they are implementing said feedback. Make sure they follow-up on behavioural issues and non-compliance with homework/rules. You cannot possibly assess a teacher's skill at their job by grades alone.

acequion · 11-03-2014 10:24PM

marienbad wrote: »

How are they offensive ageist comments ? Get real - there are older people getting state benefits and are not means tested , there are well off families getting child benefits and not means tested. About the only time this government has backed down is when the older crowd took to the streets .
By the way I am one of the older crowd but I didn't take to the streets. Somehow in the great scheme of things hanging on to my free travel was not quite the same as some young family hanging on to their house.

As for you final paragraph - what has that got to do with the price of apples ? I notice from your posting history you had a few comments on Reality Television , have you been on such a programme ? Have you any first hand knowledge of such programmes ? Or do you have the bizarre notion that somehow just because you own a TV ,pay your licence that you are therefore entitled to participate in a public debate on the subject ?

No,you get real! You are very ageist and simplistic.You seem to think that smashing and grabbing from one sector to give to another will somehow cure society's ills and keep everyone happy.As if we were all happy clappy commies sharing out the small change. And as if somehow,the senior citizen who gets to visit relatives in another town because of said free travel is somehow responsible for a family losing a house. Horrible things are happening to people all over Ireland. Blame it on the Government,not on some 'auld fella up the road.The Internet is full of people with your narrow,skewed solutions to society's ills,this is a forum about teaching and I find your constant off topic pontificating tiresome.

If you've little else to do than check out posters' history on boards.ie,be my guest! But comparing expressing opinions on something as vacuous as reality tv to expressing opinions on a real life difficult job is insane!

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 10:27PM

marienbad wrote: »

How about you take the European average and benchmark against that , add a couple of % points if you like.

I don't see how anyone can be paid twice the pay of a colleague for exactly the same job. Just staying in the same position year after year and getting incremental pay is just ridiculous.

The more difficult the class the higher the pay should be the rule.

You mentioned accountancy already - that is also a profession - but there you are paid based on how good you are not how long you are doing it.
So you could be on 35k after 30 years or on 6ok after 10.

I have no problem with high pay for top performers ,I do have a problem with high pay for mediocre ones , and so should you.

You really have no Idea what experience means to the teaching profession... how about this.

Say.... as a parent you follow your own childs/childrens progress throughout their schooling experience. You have built up a certain skillset and would consider yourself competent in offering advice to another parent.

Now... extrapolate that out to a teacher who probably on average deals with about 400 students (or widgets if you like) a year and all of these widgets have a completely different 'standard operating procedure' (we'll assume that none of these widgets come with a manual). Each standard operating procedure changes depending on the interaction with other SOP's and Teachers (process managers if you like). After 30 years I would assume that the process manager has an indepth knowledge about how best to deal with failure rates in the process. Also this process manager has garnered a moducum of knowledge into dealing with the parents (patent holders if you like).... ok enough of all the lingo..

Basically there is a wealth of experience that you as a non-teacher never see. ANY issue I have with a student/parent/teacher and I know that the best person to ask for advice is probably the most senior member of staff.. and so far their advice has never let me down..

But for some non-teachers all they think about is the teacher trudging in reading out last years notes. Easy money eh!

A school is a community of teachers and learners. It's not the premiership with buying and selling players for entertainment.

lolo62 · 11-03-2014 10:28PM

Has anyone made a successful transition to something else?
Presumably anyone who has wouldn't be on this thread but maybe some ideas floating about?
I've been working part time in a private school with absolutely no rights for 10 years..it was all fine when things were good as there was plenty of work to go around but, inevitably, things are tough at the moment
On top of that, the building I work in is falling down and there are constant problems that the administration have started burying their heads in the sand over.
I'm constantly asking myself, ok, what else could I do...
I'm in my thirties so I don't know if I would adapt to working in retail or phone centre like I did in my twenties..
Anyone tried their hands at anything else?

acequion · 11-03-2014 10:50PM

Afroshack wrote: »

How on earth does one measure a 'bad' teacher?

A teacher with lower grades than other teachers?
A teacher who doesn't use active learning enough?
A teacher who doesn't use AFL every 10 minutes to check learning?
A teacher who doesn't know all of her students backgrounds, families or take a significant interest in their lives and well-being? Measured how exactly?
A teacher without a masters?
A teacher with the most behavioural problems on record?

In all honesty, the only way I think a school can accuratley suss out their teachers is to have random walk-ins during class for 3 or 4 minutes at a time to get a feel for how the teacher works in a classroom. Have regular observations with feedback and check they are implementing said feedback. Make sure they follow-up on behavioural issues and non-compliance with homework/rules. You cannot possibly assess a teacher's skill at their job by grades alone.

Ever heard of happy teachers? That rare brand who feel trusted to do their professional job to the best of their ability, because after all they choose it as their life's calling and they love it. Well,such a rare breed are to be found in Finland,a country which respects and trusts its teachers and invests in education and hence they persistently come at the top of the PISA tables.

Now do you think your intrusive walk about style surveillance of Ireland's demoralised teachers in their over crowded,underfunded classrooms is going to transform the nation's teachers? I mean,seriously?? :rolleyes:

acequion · 11-03-2014 10:59PM

Armelodie wrote: »

You really have no Idea what experience means to the teaching profession... how about this.

Say.... as a parent you follow your own childs/childrens progress throughout their schooling experience. You have built up a certain skillset and would consider yourself competent in offering advice to another parent.

Now... extrapolate that out to a teacher who probably on average deals with about 400 students (or widgets if you like) a year and all of these widgets have a completely different 'standard operating procedure' (we'll assume that none of these widgets come with a manual). Each standard operating procedure changes depending on the interaction with other SOP's and Teachers (process managers if you like). After 30 years I would assume that the process manager has an indepth knowledge about how best to deal with failure rates in the process. Also this process manager has garnered a moducum of knowledge into dealing with the parents (patent holders if you like).... ok enough of all the lingo..

Basically there is a wealth of experience that you as a non-teacher never see. ANY issue I have with a student/parent/teacher and I know that the best person to ask for advice is probably the most senior member of staff.. and so far their advice has never let me down..

But for some non-teachers all they think about is the teacher trudging in reading out last years notes. Easy money eh!

A school is a community of teachers and learners. It's not the premiership with buying and selling players for entertainment.

This poster has no idea what anything means or is in the teaching profession. Period. As a result this thread is becoming like the journal.ie with teachers going around in circles refuting nonsense.I don't have a problem with non teachers posting on these threads,as long as they're not on the constant offensive,with us then on the defensive.

It would be nice to get back on topic,which is a debate on whether or not teaching is now a worthwhile career choice.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 11:12PM

amacca wrote: »

How about we properly take into account other countries purchasing power vs ours (averages have a horrible way of being a silly way to decide on a lot of things)

In the interests of fairness we should probably take into account the level of taxation that comes out of teachers gross pay (just like everybody else) in this country vs EU average

We should probably also take into account we have one of the highest class contact times in Europe

Might be an idea to compare average class sizes

Could be good to take note that we get no credit for all the prep/correcting etc we have to do on top of our class contact hours. This is built into teachers in other countries contracted hours, so they are not constantly thought to just working their contact hours.

How about we acknowledge the very poor disciplinary backup in this country and the necessity to deal with/put up with ongoing disciplinary problems because everyone has the right to education but no one parents included have any responsibilities - the only person with all the responsibilities in our system is the teacher - We have been subtly made responsible for things that should never be our responsibility

How about we acknowledge that there are no minimum compulsory standards in this country for students (Obviously SEN should be exempted) that help focus students on what they should be doing in class - Eg: In some countries if you don't meet a minimum requirement you are required to do the year again until you do meet the requirement (That tends to reduce down the amount of time spent dealing with constant talking, abusive behaviour, continually forgetting materials, making no effort to follow instructions/listen etc that is becoming the norm for an increasing cohort of students.

Also possibly something to consider that many other countries don't seem to engage in close to the amount of voluntary (unpaid/uncompensated) extra curricular I see happening in any school I've been into in this country - I'll admit I can't be entirely sure of this but anecdotally (which admittedly is not a great way to debate) in many schools in England its just a job and when quitting time comes teachers treat it like that and go home. I mean fair enough if you want it to be just a job but don't expect people to go over and above which I think many people do (in my school at least)

Another thing to consider is that unless you want to become a principal or deputy (and we can't all be those) there are effectively very few ways to progress upwards in the "profession" in this island and that goes doubly now with gradual reduction of A and B posts (which placed too many demands for too little rewards imo) Thats a sacrifice vs other countries

There are numerous other things to take into account if we are in the business of comparing apples with apples and if you say we can quantify teacher performance then I say there is no reason we can't quantify and take these into account.

Thing is if we did I reckon teachers pay wouldn't be altered a hell of a lot, it might even be increased or else the problems with the system might be addressed to make a more equitable system for all.

But lets face it unless we are very naive thats not whats going happen. Bullyboys like Quinn and talking heads will continue to shoot from the hip because its a popular thing to do or they can make their name from it and decisions will be made not on the basis of whats best for students or teachers (and certainly not linking the welfare of one group to another) ……they will be made on the basis of how much money can be squeezed out of the system, how much votes can be garnered or how much of a name for themselves the minister can make so the can carry that reputation on to a cushy new position all the while not giving a flying fword about you, me the students or anyone else.

I have no problem with taking any or all of the above into account in any assessment. Lets call in independent assessors and come up with solutions in line with our European colleagues . Factor in any local conditions you like provided they stand up to independent scrutiny.

And let the chips fall where they may. Are you up for it ?

byhookorbycrook · 11-03-2014 11:15PM

marienbad wrote: »

I have no problem with taking any or all of the above into account in any assessment. Lets call in independent assessors and come up with solutions in line with our European colleagues . Factor in any local conditions you like provided they stand up to independent scrutiny.

And let the chips fall where they may. Are you up for it ?

They are called DES inspectors, they can and do drop in to ANY class with absolutely no notice. Mind you , there is no such system in Finland.

I think one thing prospective teachers will learn from this thread is that anyone who has been to school seems to think that they are experts in the education system and that they KNOW how to do your job.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 11:25PM

acequion wrote: »

This poster has no idea what anything means or is in the teaching profession. Period. As a result this thread is becoming like the journal.ie with teachers going around in circles refuting nonsense.I don't have a problem with non teachers posting on these threads,as long as they're not on the constant offensive,with us then on the defensive.

It would be nice to get back on topic,which is a debate on whether or not teaching is now a worthwhile career choice.

What do you want ? a closed shop discussion that is little more than a continuous whinge-fest about how everyone else is to blame .

As a matter of fact very little of the 'nonsense' I posted , usually with supporting links has been refuted, ignored yes - refuted no. I am actually a bit surprised that our educators actually think inflation is high here, our tax regime is excessive, our budget for salaries is less than our counterparts.

And I would disagree that I am on the offensive- is everything an are you with us or agin us choice ?

Afroshack · 11-03-2014 11:26PM

acequion wrote: »

Ever heard of happy teachers? That rare brand who feel trusted to do their professional job to the best of their ability, because after all they choose it as their life's calling and they love it. Well,such a rare breed are to be found in Finland,a country which respects and trusts its teachers and invests in education and hence they persistently come at the top of the PISA tables.

Now do you think your intrusive walk about style surveillance of Ireland's demoralised teachers in their over crowded,underfunded classrooms is going to transform the nation's teachers? I mean,seriously?? :rolleyes:

Who said anything about transforming? It's about accountability - and will hopefully rule out these ridiculous calls for pay-related performance and 'bad' teacher bashing.

If a headteacher can comfortably say, 'I have seen X teaching several times over the past year, and I have seen how they deal with X, Y and Z, and they have taken my advice on M, thus I am secure and comfortable that they are sufficiently good and able teachers', then perhaps teachers won't feel they have to attain all A grades in order to defend their own position. It won't be about the grades, the crazy demands of extra-curricular hours, or the amount of marking /paperwork you do. It's what actually happens when you enter the classroom.

I was terrified at the idea of it, (it happens in my school pretty much every day) but it's honestly such a saving grace sometimes. If you have a bad day or a student/parent makes a complaint about you, or your grades aren't particularly high, you can point out that a headteacher entered your classroom, maybe 12 times last month and seemed happy with everything going on, that you are doing your job to the very best of your ability. It's not about transforming teachers - it's about the school being secure that they have made the right choice in hiring you.

chippers · 11-03-2014 11:29PM

amacca wrote: »

Also possibly something to consider that many other countries don't seem to engage in close to the amount of voluntary (unpaid/uncompensated) extra curricular I see happening in any school I've been into in this country - I'll admit I can't be entirely sure of this but anecdotally (which admittedly is not a great way to debate) in many schools in England its just a job and when quitting time comes teachers treat it like that and go home. I mean fair enough if you want it to be just a job but don't expect people to go over and above which I think many people do (in my school at least)

.

To give you a reference point. Public sector schools in Spain there is no extra curricular activities. Zero. No debating club / no choir / no sports teams etc.

Students are extremely lucky in Ireland with the level of extra curricular that is offered to them. Something that teachers receive very little credit for.

amacca · 11-03-2014 11:31PM

marienbad wrote: »

I have no problem with taking any or all of the above into account in any assessment. Lets call in independent assessors and come up with solutions in line with our European colleagues . Factor in any local conditions you like provided they stand up to independent scrutiny.

And let the chips fall where they may. Are you up for it ?

Yes, that is clear from my post. I can't see the profession losing out from a fair comparison. The problem imo is the powers that be have no stomach for it. They would rather feather their own nests and shaft us in the process……..Please help me see how that wouldn't happen.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 11:38PM

Armelodie wrote: »

You really have no Idea what experience means to the teaching profession... how about this.

Say.... as a parent you follow your own childs/childrens progress throughout their schooling experience. You have built up a certain skillset and would consider yourself competent in offering advice to another parent.

Now... extrapolate that out to a teacher who probably on average deals with about 400 students (or widgets if you like) a year and all of these widgets have a completely different 'standard operating procedure' (we'll assume that none of these widgets come with a manual). Each standard operating procedure changes depending on the interaction with other SOP's and Teachers (process managers if you like). After 30 years I would assume that the process manager has an indepth knowledge about how best to deal with failure rates in the process. Also this process manager has garnered a moducum of knowledge into dealing with the parents (patent holders if you like).... ok enough of all the lingo..

Basically there is a wealth of experience that you as a non-teacher never see. ANY issue I have with a student/parent/teacher and I know that the best person to ask for advice is probably the most senior member of staff.. and so far their advice has never let me down..

But for some non-teachers all they think about is the teacher trudging in reading out last years notes. Easy money eh!

A school is a community of teachers and learners. It's not the premiership with buying and selling players for entertainment.

I have a very good idea of what experience means to teaching profession.It means the very same as it does to every profession . We always like to make exceptions of our own chosen field but that is an appeal to emotion, nothing more.

A question for you - you need a medical consultation or a legal consultation or what ever. All are equally certified to meet the requirements of the job,
all with the exact same qualifications .

You have three choices ,

Option A 10 years in practice rate 500.00
Option B 15 years in practice rate 750.00
Option C 20 years in practice rate 1000.00

Which do you choose and why ?

marienbad · 11-03-2014 11:39PM

amacca wrote: »

Yes, but the powers that be have no stomach for it. They would rather feather their own nests and shaft us in the process.

Do you include the teachers unions in ' the powers that be' ? If so I probably agree with you.

chippers · 11-03-2014 11:39PM

marienbad wrote: »

I have no problem with taking any or all of the above into account in any assessment. Lets call in independent assessors and come up with solutions in line with our European colleagues . Factor in any local conditions you like provided they stand up to independent scrutiny.

And let the chips fall where they may. Are you up for it ?

Ah yes, more independent assessors. More administrators for the education system. We have overpaid administrators coming out of our ears. Less administrators and more teachers - reduce the PTR.

acequion · 11-03-2014 11:46PM

marienbad wrote: »

What do you want ? a closed shop discussion that is little more than a continuous whinge-fest about how everyone else is to blame .

As a matter of fact very little of the 'nonsense' I posted , usually with supporting links has been refuted, ignored yes - refuted no. I am actually a bit surprised that our educators actually think inflation is high here, our tax regime is excessive, our budget for salaries is less than our counterparts.

And I would disagree that I am on the offensive- is everything an are you with us or agin us choice ?

What I would like is to be able to discuss the very real concerns of my profession with my on line collegues,without being constantly sidetracked by someone from the general public, who actually knows very little about the topic on hand,teaching. I have noticed that the OP and several other posters who are real teachers have faded away from this thread,probably bored at what it has descended into, while others,as you say yourself,prefer to ignore you. It's probably time I did likewise.

Edit: please do not refer to another poster as a "know it all"

A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

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