A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

evolving_doors

bbam wrote: »

The only change I can see from OP post is teaching is now being brought into line with the insecurity, workload, and general conditions of most other careers in the private sector.
That's just an observation, I take no satisfaction in the changes. I choose my career and you chose yours.

The analogy is meaningless though, can children chose different service providers (schools!) like I chose my filing station?

opticalillusion

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Three are loads of primary jobs in England. If you prepare well then you'll have no problem.

This time last year I applied for a job in London for which only for other people applied also. It's far different to Ireland.

I couldn't recommend it enough.

Also if you book flights well enough in advance then you can get home twice every half term.

Thank you for the modicum of positivity. England isn't that far away, really. There is a sliver of light at the end of the tunnel, that is better than no light at all.

Can you complete the dip in England? Am I right in saying that if you move abroad you face an automatic 10% pay cut just for doing that? If so that is such a kick in the hole. There is no work here, but you are not allowed use your initiative and work abroad, either :rolleyes:

My friend's sister did Hibernia, got a lovely permanent job in a country school for a few years and then quit and went abroad to teach. Madness, IMO.

thefasteriwalk

Moody_mona wrote: »

It does apply in primary also. Although there is back pay, at both levels, IF you sure a temporary post in September: easier said than done.

Do you have a link to this information?

Jimmy Iovine

opticalillusion wrote: »

Thank you for the modicum of positivity. England isn't that far away, really. There is a sliver of light at the end of the tunnel, that is better than no light at all.

Can you complete the dip in England? Am I right in saying that if you move abroad you face an automatic 10% pay cut just for doing that? If so that is such a kick in the hole. There is no work here, but you are not allowed use your initiative and work abroad, either :rolleyes:

My friend's sister did Hibernia, got a lovely permanent job in a country school for a few years and then quit and went abroad to teach. Madness, IMO.

I think you can but if you are certain you will be moving afterwards, why not just do your degree in England? One year and it's out of the way.

I did mine in Bangor in Wales. There's a lovely loophole that entitles Irish students to a £5,595 grant towards the payment of the £9,000 fees.

Peter Flynt

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I think you can but if you are certain you will be moving afterwards, why not just do your degree in England? One year and it's out of the way.

I did mine in Bangor in Wales. There's a lovely loophole that entitles Irish students to a £5,595 grant towards the payment of the £9,000 fees.

The NQT has to attend ten two hour lectures organised by the Teaching Council afterwards to have their qualification recognised.

They then must complete 300 hours or so in a certain timeframe.

Moody_mona

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Do you have a link to this information?

I'll try and find one for you, give me a few minutes

opticalillusion

I'm not certain but if I have to I will, I'd prefer to try to get a job in Ireland first. Since I've gone back and done the leaving cert again I'd prefer to get a qualification with the Irish out of the way, the aim would always be to come back to Ireland anyway and then I'd have to do it all over again to be able to teach here.

Are you still teaching in England? Are the wages better over there do you mind me asking?

ledgebag1

What is the likelyhood that you can do well in a school and gain a permanent position? Whether that is through the principal helping you in that school or another?

bbam

implausible wrote: »

Observation taken on board, but to bring it back to "won't somebody please think of the children?" the knock-on effect is that students may have at least five demoralised, overworked teachers for one subject in five years, a guidance counsellor who doesn't have time to meet them, unless it's a major crisis like a suicide attempt, a yearhead who hasn't been replaced or a yearhead who regularly has to leave their class to deal with crises elsewhere.

In line with the private sector is all well and good, but schools are not banks whose aim is to turn a profit or a factory whose aim is to maximise production of an item. What we do (without trying to go down the line of "teaching is a vocation") is try to educate the whole student.

The general public's desire to see us "brought into line" is incredibly ill-informed and short-sighted. Ill-informed as people seem to be unaware of all of the cuts sustained so far and short-sighted as it is their kids and the education system that will ultimately suffer.

While it may be public desire it's still bring brought into force by a weak government who are quite happy to sacrifice whatever they see fit to both save money and win over "popular" support.
Teaching like many other aspects of life is becoming a job rather than career or devotion. It will fall to the domain of parents to bridge any gaps if they are capable, if they are not capable then we are engineering a bigger social divide to be seen in future years.

Teaching is just one of a long line of public service professionals who's conditions are being eroded by the current government and the publics desire for equality for all.

Peter Flynt

ledgebag1 wrote: »

What is the likelyhood that you can do well in a school and gain a permanent position? Whether that is through the principal helping you in that school or another?

Permanent positions are a thing of the past.

A "Contract of Indefinite Duration" is its replacement.

Jimmy Iovine

opticalillusion wrote: »

Are you still teaching in England? Are the wages better over there do you mind me asking?

I am.

They're not great. The starting point over here is about €4,000 behind Ireland.

Add in the fact that it's up to the school to decide whether you can get a wage increase or not, and it makes for grim reading.

My friend has been told that he is going to move to M3 (c. €35k).

My school, on the other hand, bases your salary on the progress of your class and other criteria.

You won't move to England for the money. You'll get a ridiculous amount of experience over here but not much in the way of disposable cash.

Moody_mona

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Do you have a link to this information?

Circular 0061/2010

"6.3 A whole-time fixed term teacher who commences employment after the first working day in
November and who continues in a fixed term capacity until 30 June will not get paid for the
summer vacation unless s/he secures a further fixed term or permanent teaching post from the
first working day of the following school year. The retrospective holiday pay entitlement will
then be calculated as follows:

• A teacher who takes up a whole time fixed term post after the first working day in
November but prior to 1st
April, continues in employment as a whole time fixed term
teacher until 30 June, shall receive retrospective holiday pay for the summer period if
s/he secures a contract for the entire new school year or a contract that will not expire any
earlier than one year after the start date of the original fixed term contract. Payment for
the summer period is made retrospectively during the new school year.

• A teacher who takes up a whole time fixed term post after 1 April and continues in
employment as a whole time fixed term teacher until 30 June shall receive retrospective
holiday pay for the summer period one year from the start date of the initial contract
provided the teacher has served in either a whole time fixed term post or permanent post
for the entire 12 months period."

Peter Flynt

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I am.

They're not great. The starting point over here is about €4,000 behind Ireland.

Add in the fact that it's up to the school to decide whether you can get a wage increase or not, and it makes for grim reading.

My friend has been told that he is going to move to M3 (c. €35k).

My school, on the other hand, bases your salary on the progress of your class and other criteria.

You won't move to England for the money. You'll get a ridiculous amount of experience over here but not much in the way of disposable cash.

This is the salary scale for teachers in Ireland. The starting point for a FULL TIME teacher is €30,702.



If the starting point in the UK is 4,000 lower then the starting point in the UK is €26,702 or £22,142.

http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-ranges

The website above shows links to the UK salary scale and does not substantiate your claim.

DK man

Add to the op list - being told to attend pastoral care meetings during your lunch break as part of your hra hours - and if your late because you are having a rushed sandwich getting a personal phone call from the principal

If I was starting out again there's no way I'd get into teaching

Jimmy Iovine

Peter Flynt wrote: »

This is the salary scale for teachers in Ireland. The starting point for a FULL TIME teacher is €30,702.



If the starting point in the UK is 4,000 lower then the starting point in the UK is €26,702 or £22,142.

http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-ranges

The website above shows links to the UK salary scale and does not substantiate your claim.

Right.

Note my use of the word 'about' in my 'claim'.

Forgive me for being £338 in my estimation. I think that's a pretty good margin of error considering I didn't use a converter.

I know what the starting point is in the UK. It says so on my pay slip every month. Thanks for the link though. It may help others.

rainbowtrout

Peter Flynt wrote: »

This is the salary scale for teachers in Ireland. The starting point for a FULL TIME teacher is €30,702.



If the starting point in the UK is 4,000 lower then the starting point in the UK is €26,702 or £22,142.

http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-ranges

The website above shows links to the UK salary scale and does not substantiate your claim.

Why not? The link shows that the minimum salary for a qualified teacher on the London fringe is £22853. That's around €27k which is about €4k less than a starting teaching wage in Ireland. The higher wages are for teaching in London, because there is a premium paid to public service workers in the UK for working in London.

If your quibble is about the maths and it's not exactly €4k you don't have to be so pedantic.

Peter Flynt

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Right.

Note my use of the word 'about' in my 'claim'.

Forgive me for being £338 in my estimation. I think that's a pretty good margin of error considering I didn't use a converter.

I know what the starting point is in the UK. It says so on my pay slip every month. Thanks for the link though. It may help others.

The absolute minimum in the UK for a qualified teacher appears to be £21,804 or €26,293.

In London the minimum for a qualified teacher exceeds the payment for a NQT in Ireland.

There are also allowances available to teachers in the UK - a teaching and learning allowance, London allowancee, allowance for teaching special needs, allowance for subject co-ordinator, etc. .

There are no allowances available for the NQT in Ireland. The first allowance they could meet is a promotion to Assistant Principal . . . which is not going to happen in at least the first ten years of their career in Ireland. . . assuming they've managed to retain their job in the same school.

What exactly is your pay in the UK?

Peter Flynt

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Why not? The link shows that the minimum salary for a qualified teacher on the London fringe is £22853. That's around €27k which is about €4k less than a starting teaching wage in Ireland. The higher wages are for teaching in London, because there is a premium paid to public service workers in the UK for working in London.

If your quibble is about the maths and it's not exactly €4k you don't have to be so pedantic.

It's not as simple as stating that a teacher in the UK is paid less than a teacher in Ireland as there isn't one scale (one size fits all) for newly qualified teachers (which is what this thread is about) in the UK as there is in Ireland.

I can accept that there is a circumstance where a FULL TIME NQT teacher in Ireland is earning more in their first year than their equivalent in the UK.

I can also accept the reverse as this is clearly the case for a teacher in London.

Ultimately there are other factors (see the opening post and my reference to allowances/promotion) which need to be included.

rainbowtrout

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It's not as simple as stating that a teacher in the UK is paid less than a teacher in Ireland as there isn't one scale (one size fits all) for newly qualified teachers (which is what this thread is about) in the UK as there is in Ireland.

I can accept that there is a circumstance where a FULL TIME NQT teacher in Ireland is earning more in their first year than their equivalent in the UK.

I can also accept the reverse as this is clearly the case for a teacher in London.

Ultimately there are other factors (see the opening post and my reference to allowances/promotion) which need to be included.

In the general scheme of things, starting out it is true. An NQT is not going to be made a subject co-ordinator in a school so that allowance won't be available to them. They might have a teaching and learning allowance available to them, but we also have a tax credit available to us as teachers. Mine shows up on my P21 from the revenue each year. The London allowance really is necessary to make sure people in public service jobs can afford to live in London. It's not available outside London and really allows people to pay the fairly hefty rent in Inner London. I can't imagine teachers receiving that allowance are any better off than a teacher working outside London and not receiving it.

Jimmy Iovine

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The absolute minimum in the UK for a qualified teacher appears to be £21,804 or €26,293.

In London the minimum for a qualified teacher exceeds the payment for a NQT in Ireland.

There are also allowances available to teachers in the UK - a teaching and learning allowance, London allowancee, allowance for teaching special needs, allowance for subject co-ordinator, etc. .

There are no allowances available for the NQT in Ireland. The first allowance they could meet is a promotion to Assistant Principal . . . which is not going to happen in at least the first ten years of their career in Ireland. . . assuming they've managed to retain their job in the same school.

What exactly is your pay in the UK?

Jeez. Most of the allowances you have mentioned aren't available to NQTs in England.

- most of the country doesn't qualify for the London allowance.

- no school would give an NQT a subject to co-ordinate.

- no school would ever give an NQT a TLR role.

The last two allowances require experience, especially since the curriculum is changing next year.

I am receiving the 'normal' NQT salary.

Peter Flynt

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In the general scheme of things, starting out it is true.

Only it's not. The link clearly states that the minimum wage in London is £27,270 (€ 32,885). London has a population over twice the size of this country so I'm sure there are many examples of NQTs in London earning more than their counterparts in Ireland.

Sure outside London teachers in Ireland do seem to be earning more. . but it's not €4000 more.

An NQT is not going to be made a subject co-ordinator in a school so that allowance won't be available to them. They might have a teaching and learning allowance available to them, but we also have a tax credit available to us as teachers.

Teachers in the UK are more likely to be promoted though and have their wage increased further. There is basically no mechanism from which a teacher is likely to achieve promotion in Ireland. Lots is done for free in Ireland which does not occur without an allowance in the UK.

The "tax credit" you refer to is something like €500. Does it still exist?

Mine shows up on my P21 from the revenue each year. The London allowance really is necessary to make sure people in public service jobs can afford to live in London. It's not available outside London and really allows people to pay the fairly hefty rent in Inner London. I can't imagine teachers receiving that allowance are any better off than a teacher working outside London and not receiving it.

Dublin is a very expensive city in which to live. There's no Dublin allowance.

Peter Flynt

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Jeez. Most of the allowances you have mentioned aren't available to NQTs in England.

- most of the country doesn't qualify for the London allowance.

- no school would give an NQT a subject to co-ordinate.

- no school would ever give an NQT a TLR role.

The last two allowances require experience, especially since the curriculum is changing next year.

I am receiving the 'normal' NQT salary.

What salary is that?

The points you make are valid and I've responded to them in the post above.

However there are circumstances whereby teachers in Ireland are receiving less than teachers in London (UK) and the reverse is also true.

You rightly state that allowances require experience. Fair enough - but there's no allowance for any experience or any extra work taken on in Ireland.

A lot of extra work is done without payment in Ireland.

byhookorbycrook

ledgebag1 wrote: »

What is the likelyhood that you can do well in a school and gain a permanent position? Whether that is through the principal helping you in that school or another?

In primary all permanent jobs must be offered to "the panel" i.e. those permanent teachers who are losing a post in a school due to a drop of numbers, so that works against non permanent teachers, no matter how good they are.

Dave0301

As someone who did my nqt year in England, and close to London, the fringe and inner payscales are essential for teachers so they can afford the standard of living. It is not something you see left over in your pay packet.

It is ridiculously high over here between rent and transport costs alone.

To put things into perspective, London also has its own minimum wage pay different to the rest of the UK, again to negate the inflated cost of living in London and the south east.

Peter Flynt

Dave0301 wrote: »

As someone who did my nqt year in England, and close to London, the fringe and inner payscales are essential for teachers so they can afford the standard of living. It is not something you see left over in your pay packet.

It is ridiculously high over here between rent and transport costs alone.

To put things into perspective, London also has its own minimum wage pay different to the rest of the UK, again to negate the inflated cost of living in London and the south east.

Few places in Europe have higher costs of living than Dublin and yet the same pay scale exists for those teachers employed in Dublin as well as those teachers employed over, say, the west of Ireland where the cost of living (transport, rent, food etc. . ) is far cheaper.

At least in London a proper integrated transport system exists.

The cost of public transport alone in Dublin is outrageous.

Godge

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Permanent positions are a thing of the past.

A "Contract of Indefinite Duration" is its replacement.

They are the same thing.

Godge

Peter Flynt wrote: »

You rightly state that allowances require experience. Fair enough - but there's no allowance for any experience or any extra work taken on in Ireland.

A lot of extra work is done without payment in Ireland.

Increments are for experience, last I checked teachers got them in Ireland.

whiteandlight

Godge wrote: »

They are the same thing.

Asfaik they are not the same thing. In particular a CID does not entitle the teacher to full hours. You can have a CID for very few leaving yiur job security still crap

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Permanent positions are a thing of the past.

A "Contract of Indefinite Duration" is its replacement.

Not strictly true, there are still permanent jobs every year, granted very few, but permanent jobs do still exist. For the majority the best they can hope for is a CID but some permanent ones do come up each year.

Peter Flynt

Godge wrote: »

They are the same thing.

Then why aren't they called permanent contracts then?