A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

Peter Flynt

There appears to be many wannabe teachers who are browsing these forums.

As an experienced teacher I would have one piece of advice: Stay away from teaching.

Why?

The profession (and I use that term lightly) has changed dramatically over the past 5 years and not because FF ran the country into the ground - This is the common excuse from FG/Labour for the recent "reforms" (that is. . cuts).

The reasons are as follows:

1 - Expect poverty: 30 % of current teachers are not on full time contracts with this figure expected to be much higher among under 35 year olds. Some are on pro rata contracts . . .as low as 3 hours per week to get their foot on the ladder.

2 - The state reserves the right to cut your pay and make worse your conditions at any particular time: The permanent government (i.e. FF, FG, Labour) are under no illusions about who takes cuts first - the public servant. Teaching unions are worthless. . . they are just about protecting those at the top and letting the rest go to hell.

3 - The JCSA: Designed as far reaching "reform" . . . it is nothing of the sort - It is about ensuring that teachers do the continuous assessment, setting and marking of terminal examinations (I thought Quinn was opposed to this?). Thus saving around 30 million per year.

4 - No payments - For your degree, for your teaching qualification, for your M. Sc.. . . . It's the "something for nothing" Government.

5 - No chance of promotion: "B" posts (special duties) posts are no longer going to be replaced. This means that only around 5/6 teachers in each school will be considered as part of management.

6 - Expect to be asked to do many hours for free: But those "B" posts have important duties that need to be done. Guess who's going to be asked?

7 - The Teaching Council: I believe they require 300 hours of post qualification experience. But how do you get experience if there's no jobs. . . Simple - you work for free. You know the mantra. . "we are where we are" etc.
Also ten two hour Teaching Council lectures are required on qualification to be recognised. . . and all for the lovely sum of 90 euro annually (and 65 euro thereafter)

8 - No preparatory time: I have 4 free periods per week (thanks to unpaid Haddington Road) out of a timetable of 42 periods. Go figure.

9 - Croke Park Meetings - Absolutely pointless waste of 33 hours.

10 - Your Pension: You'll be expected to work to 68 to receive a full pension but the key here is this. . . your entitlements are based on average career earnings. This means you'll pay roughly 10 % of your salary in pension for forty years and receive a little above the state pension (despite also having to pay PRSI). In an nutshell you'll pay more than you'll ever receive.

11 - The teacher is always to blame: Anything goes wrong and the child, parent, principal, inspector will be pointing their fingers at YOU.

12 - Separate pay scale: You'll be on a separate pay scale to your pre-2011 colleagues. Naturally it's a worse one.

13 - Three months holidays?: Not anymore. I returned on August 20 last year. With the Junior Cert abolished. . . many teachers privately believe that June is next with teachers expected to attend CPD courses or face de-registration. One thing is certain. . . An extra month has been embedded into the teaching calendar as a result of Croke Park/Haddington Road (all unpaid of course)

14 - You'll be working the longest hours in the OECD: Primary/Secondary teachers in Ireland work among the longest classroom contact hours among all of the OECD countries.

Just a few points worth considering.

seandive

Have to agree with all the excellent points posted above. It is rarely discussed anywhere just how much teaching has been changed in the last five years. usually the discussion has the direction changed to "oh you have great holidays" and all the things that have been brought in are completely sidelined. Most older teachers that are there 20+ years have no clue.

In addition:

Changes to sick leave: 3.5 days per year without a cert or 7 in a 2 year period. (28 per year in some states in America, primary teachers recognised as being at the front line (similar to nurses) with cleaning up vomit/scarlet fever/flu/being sneezed on /coughed on leading to alot more illness.) More seriously, there have been more changes with sick leave for long term/serious illness. Teachers will only get paid for a number of weeks now. I am not sure of precise details on this but from what I have been hearing it is a big change and has hardly got any notice.

Special Needs Provision: Alot of SNA's cut, one SNA to deal with up to 6 children (if not more). Some children can become very frustrated and violent. When they start throwing chairs/ break windows / glass, who has to mind the other children and try to calm the child down?. Yes, you guessed it , the teacher (who is also looking after 30-40 other children). Big emphasis on a child that was locked in an isolation room for 5 hours a number of weeks ago. obviously should not have happened but in the middle of the article (away form the heading) it said SNA CUT. Not once in any of the discussions on the radio or in the papers did it say why did the child have to be locked away?? Not once did anyone point out, what about the safety of the other kids? What about the teachers safety?. Quinn's cuts have been vicious.
If you are entering Primary Teaching get ready to count and measure your bruises!!

Good to see someone else posting the realities of the job on the ground today.

sitstill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There appears to be many wannabe teachers who are browsing these forums.

As an experienced teacher I would have one piece of advice: Stay away from teaching.

Why?

The profession (and I use that term lightly) has changed dramatically over the past 5 years

Teaching, for many of us now is no longer a profession. It is part-time seasonal work supplemented by Social Welfare payments.

seavill

Peter how were ye back on the 20th of August what were ye doing at that stage? Thats shockingly early, considering the fight that went on years ago to not break the 1st of September.

I said I would reply to balance the debate. I don't want to go through everything or start a row, some of your points could be debated (e.g. you have between 4 and 9 free classes a week, you can only be called for a max of 3 classes so you would have 6 free classes up to 9. I know you can argue this is no longer your free time but you put it under the heading of prep time so technically you are in school although "on call", but I won't go through everything it will cause an argument)

The one thing I would say to just offset what the others have said. Although they are correct on the majority of what they said and it is a job that has certainly changed massively since I started teaching 7 years ago never mind how much it has changed in 10-15 years.
It can still be a job that you can enjoy.
IF you are lucky to get a job with decent hours once qualified, it can be an extremely rewarding, enjoyable, interesting, difficult, challenging job.
It is stressful, the workload has increased but I personally try not to let the extras get to me. I don't let them get into my head and effect my job. I try to just get on with them however much I detest the changes. I will still stand and fight RQ when needed but when it comes to the time in the classroom and even the times outside at matches, awards, results days etc. It still can be a really rewarding job.
Yes there are downsides but there is to every job. It's certainly not the green pastures that people with rose tinted glasses see it as from the outside but if its really really what you want to do I would advise anyone to go for it - the only warning being understand what it is really like first.

spurious

For quite a while now, I have not been recommending teaching to anyone I cared about. It's heartbreaking to see the student teachers arrive year after year and following up on them to find out how few have proper jobs, even 14 hours or so.

evolving_doors

seavill wrote: »

Peter how were ye back on the 20th of August what were ye doing at that stage? Thats shockingly early, considering the fight that went on years ago to not break the 1st of September.

I said I would reply to balance the debate. I don't want to go through everything or start a row, some of your points could be debated (e.g. you have between 4 and 9 free classes a week, you can only be called for a max of 3 classes so you would have 6 free classes up to 9. I know you can argue this is no longer your free time but you put it under the heading of prep time so technically you are in school although "on call", but I won't go through everything it will cause an argument)

The one thing I would say to just offset what the others have said. Although they are correct on the majority of what they said and it is a job that has certainly changed massively since I started teaching 7 years ago never mind how much it has changed in 10-15 years.
It can still be a job that you can enjoy.
IF you are lucky to get a job with decent hours once qualified, it can be an extremely rewarding, enjoyable, interesting, difficult, challenging job.
It is stressful, the workload has increased but I personally try not to let the extras get to me. I don't let them get into my head and effect my job. I try to just get on with them however much I detest the changes. I will still stand and fight RQ when needed but when it comes to the time in the classroom and even the times outside at matches, awards, results days etc. It still can be a really rewarding job.
Yes there are downsides but there is to every job. It's certainly not the green pastures that people with rose tinted glasses see it as from the outside but if its really really what you want to do I would advise anyone to go for it - the only warning being understand what it is really like first.

Aye but most of the post above is predicated on the fantasy of getting a full time job first.. Back in the day , at the very least, a lot started off part time and did their time till a 'permanent' position arose...this time around youll be putting in your time for a lot longer before an ' indefinite' contract arises (and more than likely not on full hours)... Are these recent explosion in CIDs counted in the 30% of teachers on part time hours I wonder? Furthermore whats the chances of getting off a CID?

The job can be rewarding for sure but thats no good if you want to have a family or mortgage. Teaching is no longer a profession, its a vocation the same as becoming a nun...with equivalent wages and less respect.

If anyone wants to become a teacher now id just ask them who do they know? Or else i'd advise then to get the hell out if ireland to start getting proper experience rather than a few hours here and there for the unforseable future.

seavill

Yea in fairness I did say "IF" in capitals in relation to getting hours

Like I said that was just my view on the job. I love it every day, even more now than I did when I started. We had a discussion the other day about winning the lotto in work, if it was me I would still be back in work the next day and I think I would enjoy it even more with the money worries gone.

Like I said I acknowledge that there are downsides and it is tough going.
You may be lucky to get a few hours you may be lucky to get full hours.

I simply wanted to put it out there that although I see where the previous posters are coming from with the points they made some teachers don't feel the same way and i just think it is important the people reading it from the outside see both sides of the coin

whiteandlight

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There appears to be many wannabe teachers who are browsing these forums.

As an experienced teacher I would have one piece of advice: Stay away from teaching.

Why?

The profession (and I use that term lightly) has changed dramatically over the past 5 years and not because FF ran the country into the ground - This is the common excuse from FG/Labour for the recent "reforms" (that is. . cuts).

The reasons are as follows:

1 - Expect poverty: 30 % of new teachers do not find full time contracts on graduation. Those who do find jobs are usually placed on pro rata contracts . . .as low as 3 hours per week to get their foot on the ladder.

Where does this statistic come from? I don't think 30% of my class found full time contracts on graduation and that was 5 years ago. And if it was 30% it was only because half the class went abroad for work.

I have to agree with the sentiment of the post. Teaching (as Seavill has said) can be hugely rewarding for the right type of person however it is increasingly hampered by cuts, short contracts and paperwork.

Icsics

Completely agree with Peter, I work as a Guidance Counsellor, well I did until Ruairi completely changed my working conditions at the stroke of a pen. This Govt has decimated the Education System, unilateral decisions made at the cabinet table are now impacting on our schools. Like someone else said your heart would go out to student teachers, one college in particular runs BEd courses with combinations of subjects like RE & Business, there are no jobs, yet the Govt sanctions all these courses. I wouldn't encourage anybody to go into teaching, unless they want to emigrate.....skilled young Irish teachers are being trained to prop up the Education systems in countries like the UAE. Shame on our Government.

Peter Flynt

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Where does this statistic come from? I don't think 30% of my class found full time contracts on graduation and that was 5 years ago. And if it was 30% it was only because half the class went abroad for work.

I have to agree with the sentiment of the post. Teaching (as Seavill has said) can be hugely rewarding for the right type of person however it is increasingly hampered by cuts, short contracts and paperwork.

I meant to state that 30% of teachers do not have full time contracts.

seavill

Is there a link to the stats for that? I presume the unions are using those stats to go back to the government to make the point about graduates, if they are even arguing about this

Peter Flynt

seavill wrote: »

Is there a link to the stats for that? I presume the unions are using those stats to go back to the government to make the point about graduates, if they are even arguing about this

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/30-of-second-level-teachers-on-less-than-full-hours-.5231.html

seavill

I presume the ASTI are backing them up on thisS or is that too much to ask

Sorry off topic I know just so ridiculous

whiteandlight

Peter do you want me to edit the opening post to fix that? That makes a lot more sense!

Peter Flynt

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Peter do you want me to edit the opening post to fix that? That makes a lot more sense!

I changed it myself there. Thanks.

Victor

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Stay away from teaching.

You want to cut out the competition, eh?

Peter Flynt wrote: »

4 - No payments - For your degree, for your teaching qualification, for your M. Sc.. . . . It's the "something for nothing" Government.

Does the average engineering graduate get these things?

7 - The Teaching Council: I believe they require 300 hours of post qualification experience.

Most professions require several years experience post-qualification for you to be considered competent.

Also ten two hour Teaching Council lectures are required on qualification to be recognised. . . and all for the lovely sum of 90 euro annually (and 65 euro thereafter)

In most jobs you attend these on your own time.

8 - No preparatory time: I have 4 free periods per week (thanks to unpaid Haddington Road) out of a timetable of 42 periods. Go figure.

Are those 40 minute periods? So you have 25 hours scheduled? What do you do with the rest of your week?

10 - Your Pension: You'll be expected to work to 68 to receive a full pension but the key here is this. . . you're entitlements are based on average career earnings.

Back in the day, when pensions became 'popular', few people lived to 60, never mind 80. It can be either 68 or a smaller pension. Your choice.

11 - The teacher is always to blame

You are, after all, the one in charge.

13 - Three months holidays?: Not anymore. I returned on August 20 last year. With the Junior Cert abolished. . . many teachers privately believe that June is next with teachers expected to attend CPD courses or face de-registration.

Of dear, only two and a half month's holidays. And Christmas, Easter and a bunch of mid-terms.

One thing is certain. . . An extra month has been embedded into the teaching calendar as a result of Croke Park/Haddington Road (all unpaid of course)

What would you be doing for that time?

Alqua

Peter Flynt wrote: »

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/30-of-second-level-teachers-on-less-than-full-hours-.5231.html

I read in the ASTI magazine a good while back that they were challenging the different pay scales under European law, in support of new teachers yadda yadda - I'm guessing no one has heard any update on this?

evolving_doors

Victor wrote: »

You want to cut out the competition, eh?

Does the average engineering graduate get these things?

Most professions require several years experience post-qualification for you to be considered competent.

In most jobs you attend these on your own time.

Are those 40 minute periods? So you have 25 hours scheduled? What do you do with the rest of your week?

Back in the day, when pensions became 'popular', few people lived to 60, never mind 80. It can be either 68 or a smaller pension. Your choice.

You are, after all, the one in charge.

Of dear, only two and a half month's holidays. And Christmas, Easter and a bunch of mid-terms.

What would you be doing for that time?

Well Victor its like this..

When will people be satisfied... its getting to the stage that teachers are treated as glorified baby sitters.. We could go around in circles comparing jobs a la After hours but teaching is now at best a part time job.

Nobody owes teaching graduates a living but once they are sucked into the system its a poverty trap..a few hours a week! How is anyone supposed to learn in their 'profession' if they are being strung along for years like this.

Would an Engineer starting out be offered a couple of hours and be expected to be onsite 9-4 all week and maybe after a few years they might get a cid on 14 hours! Huzzah..

Its a bit of a misnomer to say theres no jobs in teaching..the truth is there are hours but no REAL jobs.

Take a look at educationposts.ie and think about this. Before there used be a few permanent positions now its no different to jobbridge...work for little more than the dole and a few bob extra for sweeties.

whiteandlight

With some editing, I agree. Anyone thinking of converting to teaching, particularly later in your career needs to think long and hard about it. Pay and pension are a huge consideration as it takes so long to get a full time job and the pension payments are huge for a possibly low payout if you haven't enough years done.


1 - Pay: 30 % of current teachers are not on full time contracts with this figure expected to be much higher among under 35 year olds. Some are on pro rata contracts . . .as low as 3 hours per week to get their foot on the ladder. A large cohort of each graduate class are emigrating but there is no cap on the numbers accepted onto the course. During the boom it took an average of 7 years to get a full time job, there have been massive cuts since then. If you are converting late to teaching it is probably too late.

2 - The state reserves the right to cut your pay and make worse your conditions at any particular time. We already have one of the highest class contact hours in the OECD. However the government still manage to massage the figures by removing SNA's from the classroom, taking out guidance support, adding initiatives etc at will.

3 - The JCSA: Despite obvious and serious issues with the proposed system, teachers have no voice and the minister is rolling it out without any consultation with any group. It is worth noting that England have just rolled back on this system as it didn't work.

4 - No chance of promotion: "B" posts (special duties) posts are no longer going to be replaced. This means that only around 5/6 teachers in each school will be considered as part of management.

5 - Expect to be asked/required to do many hours for free: Middle management is gone but the workload is not, ordinary teachers are doing it. In addition there is enormous pressure on part time teachers in particular to do as much extra curricular as possible.

6 - The Teaching Council: They require 300 hours of post qualification experience must be done within a certain time from your degree but as the jobs aren't there its difficult. In some cases - you work for free to try and make them up. Also ten two hour Teaching Council lectures are required on qualification to be recognised in your own free time. These are difficult to organise if you are teaching abroad but must be done within a certain timeframe of your degree. They are also a rehash of material covered within the program.

7 - No preparatory time: The few free periods in the timetable are taken up with things such as meetings with parents, management, chasing up students, organising events etc. The class preparation outside of the "published" hours and is not acknowledged and is hours of work.

8 - Croke Park Meetings - An additional 1 hour a week, which is not allowed to be in contact with the students so has to be meetings which may or may not be of any use depending on your school/the meeting in question.

9 - Your Pension: You'll be expected to work to 68 to receive a full pension but your entitlements are based on average career earnings. This means you'll pay roughly 10 % of your salary in pension for forty years and receive a little above the state pension (which every other PRSI employee gets for free). Between paying for your pension and PRSI you'll pay more than you'll ever receive. In addition the years of part time work will have a major impact on your final figure.

10 - The teacher is always to blame: Anything goes wrong and the child, parent, principal, inspector will be pointing their fingers at you even if the issue is completely outside your control or is really a management issue. This depends on the individual school you are in.

11 - Three months holidays? There has been a huge increase in the workload including Croke Park hours, Haddington road S and S as well as the changes in teaching methods requiring more preparation and correction. In addition the new JC will require correction through June and most schools are back in the last week of August. None of this is recognised.

12 - You'll be working the longest hours in the OECD: Primary/Secondary teachers in Ireland work among the longest classroom contact hours among all of the OECD countries.

Pwpane

Peter Flynt wrote: »

2 - The state reserves the right to cut your pay and make worse your conditions at any particular time: The permanent government (i.e. FF, FG, Labour) are under no illusions about who takes cuts first - the public servant. Teaching unions are worthless. . . they are just about protecting those at the top and letting the rest go to hell.

Remember, it was only those at the top who got a pay cut in the HRA.

seavill wrote: »

Like I said that was just my view on the job. I love it every day, even more now than I did when I started. We had a discussion the other day about winning the lotto in work, if it was me I would still be back in work the next day and I think I would enjoy it even more with the money worries gone.

Like I said I acknowledge that there are downsides and it is tough going.
You may be lucky to get a few hours you may be lucky to get full hours.

I simply wanted to put it out there that although I see where the previous posters are coming from with the points they made some teachers don't feel the same way and i just think it is important the people reading it from the outside see both sides of the coin

Have you an active social life and a favourite hobby?

Have you children or aged parents?

Do you get enough sleep at night and a proper diet during the day?

If so, God speed you - and maintain your energy levels until you're 68.

seavill

Pwpane wrote: »

Remember, it was only those at the top who got a pay cut in the HRA.


Have you an active social life and a favourite hobby?

Have you children or aged parents?

Do you get enough sleep at night and a proper diet during the day?

If so, God speed you - and maintain your energy levels until you're 68.

To be honest my personal life has got nothing to do with you and nothing to do with this discussion.

I simply explained that I do indeed love my job. I enjoy almost every minute of it. I acknowledged there are downsides and it has changed dramatically over the last number of years however I still look at everything in a positive light and try to enjoy it as much as I can. if you can't enjoy your job at all you should find something else to do.
Anything else about it as I said is nothing to do with this discussion

Dr Turk Turkelton

On point 4-why would you expect extra pay for having the minimum qualification required for doing the job you applied for?
If I want to be a solicitor I don't just rock up to a solicitors office and get a job and expect to be paid extra for having a law degree.Same as if I want to be a plumber I'm not one without a qualification.

And as for the hours and holidays-are you having a laugh?

Pwpane

seavill wrote: »

To be honest my personal life has got nothing to do with you and nothing to do with this discussion.

I simply explained that I do indeed love my job. I enjoy almost every minute of it. I acknowledged there are downsides and it has changed dramatically over the last number of years however I still look at everything in a positive light and try to enjoy it as much as I can. if you can't enjoy your job at all you should find something else to do.
Anything else about it as I said is nothing to do with this discussion

Most teachers love their job - it's why they got into it in the first place. But the way the job has gone (job, not career anymore), their non-teaching lives have everything to do with a discussion about whether to teach or not - yours, mine, everyone else's.

There are many types of job a body could do that they could love if they were starting out again freshly qualified. Only some of them have an extensive effect on their ability to have a good quality non-working life. A job as energy intensive as teaching can make it virtually impossible in the long term. Other work areas have variety and promotion. Teaching remains the same hard slog with usually no variation. This is why burn-out is so common and why what I said is entirely relevant.

byhookorbycrook

I see posters on various sites who suddenly decide they want to become teachers. Some of these people don't know what the story really is ,they believe the media spin of "easy money, long holidays and permanent and pensionable." The OP is right to raise the realities of the NQT (and more experienced) as they now stand.

Cork78

Where do I start...

It is 30 years since I entered the profession. I have seen an enormous amount of changes ....

Socially, Ireland has changed dramatically and the changes seem to be permanent. The social problems I experienced in Finglas, Ballymun and the inner city are now to be found in nearly every small town in Ireland. I now work outside Dublin and have seen the changes happen only in the last decade in line with the growth of the Celtic tiger.

Now couple the social changes with the addition of children with special needs. Let us just look at this one aspect.

This was a new addition in the last 10 years or so. The gov. gave us SNA's
( Special need Assistants ) they would care for these young children. We said at the beginning that when times financially difficult for the gov cuts would be made to the SNA's and they have. The criteria for qualification for an SNA to assist a child with needs has changed. So certain children who received help in the past don't receive it today .... There was no training for teachers to deal with children with special needs... we were teachers and ......

Children under 6 cannot be assessed for assistance as they don't have to be in school as it is not required under the education act.... so the Gov doesn't provide any support. So it you are teaching an infant class and have a child with special needs it doesn't mean you will get assistance unless there is surplus assistants in the school. Which is unlikely. With all the paperwork to be completed it can take 3 and sometimes 4 years to get assistance for children.

Now lets look at children who arrived into this country with no English in the the last 12 years or so .... and they are still arriving, 5 new children arrived to our school this year with no English. If the child has special needs ... How do you assess them as there is no means to assess them in any language other than English... so they cannot be assessed until they learn English !!!!

If you have a child with special needs and the parents refuse to have them assessed you get no extra assistance in the classroom no matter how dysfunctional they are how they disrupt your class.So you must educate them even though they may not have the mental capacity to learn at the level you are teaching.

Now if you look at all the other things that are expected of teachers.

The children are obese so we must teach them about nutrition, and they want us to feed them as well. Our school was told we could receive the delivery of the fruit and veg if we cut and peeled it for the children...

Educate them on alcohol, cigarettes, sex, civil duty, discipline, bullying, cyber bullying, what career choice to make, transfers into secondary school, .....etc

I almost forgot! We are required to teach them the curriculum...Oh Dear !!!

131spanner

I'm in 2nd year Arts with English, Irish and IT with the plan to do secondary teaching in my head since TY or 5th year. It's good to have an idea of what's likely to be ahead of me

byhookorbycrook

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week?CMP=twt_gu

SarahBeep!

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week?CMP=twt_gu

I'm in my first year of teaching over in London. 55-60 hours a week is pretty much what I'm working. I'm no stranger to hard work but I worry about how sustainable this is.
My friends try and rile me about the holidays I get 'Oh poor you, you had to work 6 whole weeks after your two weeks and Christmas before you get another week off!' but when we have time off I'm too knackered to enjoy it! I come home and I feel drained. All I do is work and sleep. I'm almost 22 and if I feel like this now, how will I be in 10 years time?

Inspector Coptoor

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

On point 4-why would you expect extra pay for having the minimum qualification required for doing the job you applied for?
If I want to be a solicitor I don't just rock up to a solicitors office and get a job and expect to be paid extra for having a law degree.Same as if I want to be a plumber I'm not one without a qualification.

And as for the hours and holidays-are you having a laugh?

On this point - the "allowances" for degree & teaching qualification were part of pay.
They should have been made part of core pay instead of being classed as allowances.

The degree allowance is €5k a year & the Honours H Dip is 1.8k.

Now, I imagine a teacher going for a mortgage & it's calculated based on pay including these allowances and then they are cut.
Teacher is then gonna be in a lot of trouble.

New teachers (post 2011) are now starting on €8k less than I started on in 2007 if they have a full job.

Many are getting half hours and earning €15k a year, €5k more than the dole.
It's a very serious issue.

evolving_doors

seavill wrote: »

To be honest my personal life has got nothing to do with you and nothing to do with this discussion.

I simply explained that I do indeed love my job. I enjoy almost every minute of it. I acknowledged there are downsides and it has changed dramatically over the last number of years however I still look at everything in a positive light and try to enjoy it as much as I can. if you can't enjoy your job at all you should find something else to do.
Anything else about it as I said is nothing to do with this discussion

To be honest though personal life has everything got to do with a job. Myself, I don;t want to know any of those answers in relation to your own private life so we can park that there. However, enjoying a job is one thing.. but being expect to do more and more at home is another.

Following from other threads we have teachers who have no problems doing work at home and being 'switched on' to accommodate students at all hours of the day and weekends. Good luck to them I say but there comes a point where it's all taken for granted and we can;t stop because 'everone's doing it'.

I'm just wondering where does it all end. We do the teaching in the day time and now we will be expected to do the re-teaching when we get home all over again. I accept there is a certain amount of exam correcting and prep work to be done and we all do our fair share of it at home, but lately there is this expectation that we have get plugged in with IT on our own time and at our own families expense.

Once the new JC rolls into town it'll be paperwork upon paperwork of BS AFL and reams of justifying 'outcomes' and 'key skills' learned to parents,students and our senior colleagues (who will be deciding whether or not we will get our 'increment') on a weekly basis...so that everyone fits the bell curve. And then the meetings.. my god the meetings.. Can;t we just be let teach the subject and left to do it as professionals. It seems as if the workload is going to increase tenfold... with no extra classes taught. Same as these Croke Park hours.. hey here's an Idea just let us teach instead of having meetings about teaching.

whiteandlight

Armelodie wrote: »

To be honest though personal life has everything got to do with a job. Myself, I don;t want to know any of those answers in relation to your own private life so we can park that there. However, enjoying a job is one thing.. but being expect to do more and more at home is another.

Following from other threads we have teachers who have no problems doing work at home and being 'switched on' to accommodate students at all hours of the day and weekends. Good luck to them I say but there comes a point where it's all taken for granted and we can;t stop because 'everone's doing it'.

I'm just wondering where does it all end. We do the teaching in the day time and now we will be expected to do the re-teaching when we get home all over again. I accept there is a certain amount of exam correcting and prep work to be done and we all do our fair share of it at home, but lately there is this expectation that we have get plugged in with IT on our own time and at our own families expense.

Once the new JC rolls into town it'll be paperwork upon paperwork of BS AFL and reams of justifying 'outcomes' and 'key skills' learned to parents,students and our senior colleagues (who will be deciding whether or not we will get our 'increment') on a weekly basis...so that everyone fits the bell curve. And then the meetings.. my god the meetings.. Can;t we just be let teach the subject and left to do it as professionals. It seems as if the workload is going to increase tenfold... with no extra classes taught. Same as these Croke Park hours.. hey here's an Idea just let us teach instead of having meetings about teaching.

I use edmodo at home. I don't answer students after 830/9pm, I get less than 5 questions a week that the students haven't answered each other for and I'm very techie so it's not an intrusion for me. I will say that there are teachers in my school who are teaching multiple additional classes off timetable which I simply cannot do as I am the only music teacher and extra curricular/my own lunch takes up my spare time. Plus I don't see the point in running extra classes for jC's in particular, they really aren't going to take in more than the 5 periods a week they already have in maths.

I get what you are saying though and I guess as much as I think it's mental to run the extra classes, others would say the same about me and edmodo.


The increasing paperwork and justification is terrifying. I am under no illusions that if the increases in work load continue at this rate I will need to move careers within 10 years. We just had another presentation on the new JC last week and it was just buzzword after buzzword, with every indication that all the work would be done by us.

Peter Flynt

I've worked about 7-8 hours today . . . Yesterday I worked about 5 hours in the school. I have an inspection tomorrow but these hours would not be abnormal on a weekend.

Had a pile of hours added in clearing up stuff in the Labs, doing up folders, etc. . as the DES doesn't provide Lab Assistants as are provided in private schools.

At this stage I'm just so pissed off with the add-ons.

Every few months or so there's something new.

evolving_doors

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I use edmodo at home. I don't answer students after 830/9pm, ......[...]

But should you have to? I'd prefer not to have to answer students after 4pm! I literally don't get paid to teach from home. (I don;t even get paid for the housework either!). Once a precedent is set and a large number of teachers 'flip the classroom' then parents will be giving out to teachers who prefer to leave their teaching for the classroom. As was evidenced in the Extra Curricular thread..... I agree with the rest of what you said btw.

seavill

Armelodie wrote: »

But should you have to? I'd prefer not to have to answer students after 4pm! I literally don't get paid to teach from home. (I don;t even get paid for the housework either!). Once a precedent is set and a large number of teachers 'flip the classroom' then parents will be giving out to teachers who prefer to leave their teaching for the classroom. As was evidenced in the Extra Curricular thread..... I agree with the rest of what you said btw.

Where did they say they had to? Maybe they want to as opposed to have to.

But to answer your reply to my post.
My issue is not with the moral of the point. Obviously how much pressure you are under inside and outside of school for all the reasons listed will have an overall effect in your job and your private life.

My issue was with my personal life being questioned on here. I will repeat it is no ones business only mine. I am not here to be questioned by someone I don't know on a public forum. The fact that I was the only one to be different and the only one to be questioned on personal issues is where my issue lies.

poolsandles

I would echo what other posters have said about the reality of teaching and have one more point I think people who are considering teaching should be aware of.

Abuse from parents.

Nobody will tell you in college that there are parents out there that will try to make life very difficult for you.

They will question your teaching and tell you that you are doing it wrong when they have no idea what they are talking about but think they know better than you do.

They will question your authority and tell you there is no way their little darling could misbehave in class or is bullying another child, you must be wrong and they are right.

There are parents who will have no interest in their child's education and will look at you as nothing more than a glorified babysitter.

Of course not all parents are like this, there are wonderful parents out there who will support you and do everything possible to make sure their child gets the best education possible, which is what we all want at the end of the day.

I just think anyone considering teaching needs to be aware that dealing with abusive parents is now a big part of the job no matter what type of school you are in. I wish someone had told me.

OneWayAround

I know teachers have a tough job and I know looking after teenagers isn't easy but how come you never hear teachers discussing what's best for their students? All you hear is about pay, the hours preparation, supervision etc. I know it sounds a bit like I'm saying 'wont someone please think of the children' but I never hear teachers mention what's best for them, only how they have it so hard. Just look at this thread. Don't throw abuse at me, I'm just commenting.

Jimmy Iovine

SarahBeep! wrote: »

I'm in my first year of teaching over in London. 55-60 hours a week is pretty much what I'm working. I'm no stranger to hard work but I worry about how sustainable this is.
My friends try and rile me about the holidays I get 'Oh poor you, you had to work 6 whole weeks after your two weeks and Christmas before you get another week off!' but when we have time off I'm too knackered to enjoy it! I come home and I feel drained. All I do is work and sleep. I'm almost 22 and if I feel like this now, how will I be in 10 years time?

I'm also in England and the workload is crazy.

I will be in school at 7 tomorrow morning. I'll have two hours almost to get things ready for the week. I'll be lucky if I get organised for tomorrow.

We have a 90-minute staff meeting every single week and I'm in charge of the football team.

Our copies and planning gets taken up on a very regular basis to be examined and scrutinised. My Maths planning and five copies were taken on Friday.

I feel privileged to have a job but I don't have a life during the week. My girlfriend is coming over to me next weekend. I'll spend the following week trying to catch up on the work I should have been doing at the weekend.

Oh and then there's the one word that strikes fear into the hearts and minds of every teacher in England - OFSTED!

scoopmine

I'm doing the PDE at the minute. I love teaching but all these stories and posts would make you feel very dishearted. I have accepted that its very unlikely I will be in Ireland come September.

Peter Flynt

seavill wrote: »

Where did they say they had to? Maybe they want to as opposed to have to.

But to answer your reply to my post.
My issue is not with the moral of the point. Obviously how much pressure you are under inside and outside of school for all the reasons listed will have an overall effect in your job and your private life.

My issue was with my personal life being questioned on here. I will repeat it is no ones business only mine. I am not here to be questioned by someone I don't know on a public forum. The fact that I was the only one to be different and the only one to be questioned on personal issues is where my issue lies.

Get over yourself. . . No one is interested in your personal life.

Saying you love teaching is all well and good. . . Your circumstances are very much different to others. There is very little in the opening post that you've argued against.

SarahBeep!

OneWayAround wrote: »

I know teachers have a tough job and I know looking after teenagers isn't easy but how come you never hear teachers discussing what's best for their students? All you hear is about pay, the hours preparation, supervision etc. I know it sounds a bit like I'm saying 'wont someone please think of the children' but I never hear teachers mention what's best for them, only how they have it so hard. Just look at this thread. Don't throw abuse at me, I'm just commenting.

Would you get into a car with a taxi driver who'd been working for 12 hours with only a 20 minute break and a 40 minute lunch? I'd hope not. I we are not at our best then neither is our teaching. What we do is both mentally and physically draining. Things like knowing I won't be called for cover on period 1 Tuesday morning cut my stress loads in half. If I didn't have the silly meeting I have after school on Wednesday I could get 10-15 books marked in that time. Of course we're going to give out about our workload, and most definitely our wages if we feel we are not being paid accordingly.
On a daily basis we are teachers, parents, counsellors, social workers, doctors, referees, crowd controllers and therapists. All that and more.

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I'm also in England and the workload is crazy.

I will be in school at 7 tomorrow morning. I'll have two hours almost to get things ready for the week. I'll be lucky if I get organised for tomorrow.

We have a 90-minute staff meeting every single week and I'm in charge of the football team.

Our copies and planning gets taken up on a very regular basis to be examined and scrutinised. My Maths planning and five copies were taken on Friday.

I feel privileged to have a job but I don't have a life during the week. My girlfriend is coming over to me next weekend. I'll spend the following week trying to catch up on the work I should have been doing at the weekend.

Oh and then there's the one word that strikes fear into the hearts and minds of every teacher in England - OFSTED!

I'm in my NQT year, right of the back of finishing my degree (no dip, did a B.Ed) and I'm a science teacher but the majority of my time is spent doing maths and numeracy, neither of which I have any training in.

I felt guilty for not bringing home books to mark this weekend.

We have a meeting first thing on a Monday morning before registration. Then after school Wednesday we have mandatory new staff training! As well as my NQT insets to get my QTS and being over my hours I feel like I'm spreading myself so thin. Not to mention I have to do academic mentoring with my form kids one on one in my non contact periods. We work on a 2 week timetable and I only have 5 free out of 50 periods.

Bloody hell, I hear what you're saying. My alarm is set for 6, more than once I'm pretty sure I was the first member of the teaching staff on site.

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Get over yourself. . . No one is interested in your personal life.

Saying you love teaching is all well and good. . . Your circumstances are very much different to others. There is very little in the opening post that you've argued against.

Ah look there is no need for that at all. Certainly doesn't help anything.

Someone did question aspects of my personal life if you go back a few pages.

Yes my circumstances are different to others that is why I felt it was important to give the readers here you aimed the thread at the other side of the argument. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that but once again you attack nothing new there except I'm not going to get dragged into it with you again. Had I gone through your post point for point you would have attacked me long before now. I think it was musicmental that altered several of your points but as you turn everything very personal every time your hang ups from previous threads you would certainly have jumped on me for doing it like you do now.
I have said numerous times that I accept quite a lot of what you said. I wasn't looking to argue with anything. As mentioned some if the points made were a little over dramatic but look that's passion for the cause I suppose. But there wasn't anything that was wrong in general with the ideas of what you were saying.
Overall I just said that it is possible to still enjoy the job despite all of that depending on how things work out for you.
I asked you a question you refused to answer but as I don't want to get into another row and drag a thread off topic I let it go rather than make an issue.
Look people can agree and disagree on things without it doesn't mean you have to jump on people that you think are against you. I would say at least 5 tes I have said I agree with the idea of all the changes that have happened that you and others have mentioned. Just my outcomes are slightly different. It's about putting a balanced discussion out there which I feel there is nothing wrong with.

km79

OneWayAround wrote: »

I know teachers have a tough job and I know looking after teenagers isn't easy but how come you never hear teachers discussing what's best for their students? All you hear is about pay, the hours preparation, supervision etc. I know it sounds a bit like I'm saying 'wont someone please think of the children' but I never hear teachers mention what's best for them, only how they have it so hard. Just look at this thread. Don't throw abuse at me, I'm just commenting.

ALL my discussions during school day centre around students. Tests, projects, matches etc. Do you think it would be professional to use a discussion forum on the Internet to talk about students?

The protest about JCSA is entirely about whats best for the students. If you are a parent I would urge you to read up on it too.

Peter Flynt

seavill wrote: »

Ah look there is no need for that at all. Certainly doesn't help anything.

Someone did question aspects of my personal life if you go back a few pages.

Yes my circumstances are different to others that is why I felt it was important to give the readers here you aimed the thread at the other side of the argument. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that but once again you attack nothing new there except I'm not going to get dragged into it with you again. Had I gone through your post point for point you would have attacked me long before now. I think it was musicmental that altered several of your points but as you turn everything very personal every time your hang ups from previous threads you would certainly have jumped on me for doing it like you do now.

Attack? . . Jeez - you're forever the victim aren't you? Musicmental didn't alter anything. He/She took each of my points and gave their own opinion . . . which I supported and liked.

Off you go - Go through my points one by one

Overall I just said that it is possible to still enjoy the job despite all of that depending on how things work out for you.

It's possible to enjoy any job. That doesn't mean the terms, conditions and pay of the primary practitoners (the teachers) aren't being decimated.

How different would your life be now if you were to go out as a fresh graduate today?

What are your subjects?

I asked you a question you refused to answer but as I don't want to get into another row and drag a thread off topic I let it go rather than make an issue.
Look people can agree and disagree on things without it doesn't mean you have to jump on people that you think are against you. I would say at least 5 tes I have said I agree with the idea of all the changes that have happened that you and others have mentioned. Just my outcomes are slightly different. It's about putting a balanced discussion out there which I feel there is nothing wrong with.

Regarding your question - which I think was about Haddington Road S&S. I'm a Science/Chemistry teacher. I need to know when I'm free to prepare classes as they are very intensive (preparing reagents etc. . ). I cannot do that on 4 periods a week.

Your point about me only to be called for any number of the five is irrelevant. I'm ON CALL for all 5. People usually get paid for being on call in most walks of life. If I'm ON CALL then I'm not making myself available for anything else.
I hope I've made that clear.

seavill

That wasn't what I asked you but look you are on the offensive already again.

I'm not interested in getting into a row with you anymore. It's getting tiresome at this stage. You are incapable of having a mature discussion without going over the top on everything.

I agreed several times with what you and others said. I'll bow out if this thread and possibly website altogether as I feel it would be better. I'll finish with this I acknowledge and have done on this thread several times that it is a difficult job and things have changed dramatically over the years since I have been there and before. However depending on where you end up and your "circumstances" it can be an extremely rewarding enjoyable job at the same time which is the way I currently feel about the job.

Those reading this take in everything that was written understand it all fully but if it's what you really really want to do my advice go for it

Windorah

I agree with an awful lot of what has been said about previously. I was "lucky" to get a one year temp contract and two maternity leaves after graduation spread over a few years...

I left Ireland 3 years ago and I'm currently applying for permanent residency in Australia.

Four teachers in my school are Irish trained. The board of management in my school has actually said they HEADHUNT Irish trained teachers as we are considered the best trained teachers in the world apparently (not my words!).

Good job they don't have to look too far...!

Dickie10

im currently in final BA year doing history and geography, I was thinking of doin teaching now im not so sure!, I was attracted by the flexible time schedeule and love of the subjects I have and trying to endear students to that love as well. I have to run a drystock farm of 120 acres and this I thought I could do along with teaching am I off my head ??

whiteandlight

Dickie10 wrote: »

im currently in final BA year doing history and geography, I was thinking of doin teaching now im not so sure!, I was attracted by the flexible time schedeule and love of the subjects I have and trying to endear students to that love as well. I have to run a drystock farm of 120 acres and this I thought I could do along with teaching am I off my head ??

How much time does the farming take? There is no flexibility in time schedule-unless you mean the holidays? The downside is that there is absolutely no leeway on the days the school is open. Either you are in the building or you are out sick. It is increasingly difficult to arrange any other time off, even if for a legitimate reason-sick child etc. There is no annual leave that you can take for circumstances like this.

Aside from that all of the other points above stand. Jobs are few and far between and generally for very poor hours. In addition your subjects wouldn't be hugely in demand, particularly as I think the proposed new JC will reduce the hours for those subjects.

Having said that as Seavill says above, it can be an extremely rewarding job, you just have to go in with your eyes open

nqtfarmer

Hi Dickie10,
I am in a similar position to you with the hope of teaching and farming in the future. I am a teacher and have been fortunate to have gotten 2 maternity leave covers in a row since graduation. In my opinion, of course you will be able to farm. The biggest problem is getting a job within commutable distance of the farm.
I'm a travelling salesman essentially, send CVs out anywhere and everywhere and I take work where I get it. This is what it is like for the first 5 years of your career. In my opinion, getting a permanent job straight away could be detrimental to your professional development, out look and attitude.
As for staying away from teaching - changes are happening and I believe they are for the best. Yes there will be an increased workload, yes there is worse pay, yes the kids can be a struggle.......
But its the best damn job in the world so lets look positively......

whiteandlight

nqtfarmer wrote: »

Hi Dickie10,
I am in a similar position to you with the hope of teaching and farming in the future. I am a teacher and have been fortunate to have gotten 2 maternity leave covers in a row since graduation. In my opinion, of course you will be able to farm. The biggest problem is getting a job within commutable distance of the farm.
I'm a travelling salesman essentially, send CVs out anywhere and everywhere and I take work where I get it. This is what it is like for the first 5 years of your career. In my opinion, getting a permanent job straight away could be detrimental to your professional development, out look and attitude.
As for staying away from teaching - changes are happening and I believe they are for the best. Yes there will be an increased workload, yes there is worse pay, yes the kids can be a struggle.......
But its the best damn job in the world so lets look positively......

It is going to be much longer than 5 years before getting a CID if you only get maternity cover. Commutable distance to the farm could be a major problem depending on the location. A large majority of schools in the west are over quote.

May I ask why you think the incoming changes are for the best?


I do agree with you in that I love my job but would you not say that it being the best damn job in the world really depends on you loving the work, not the perks?

phish

Windorah wrote: »

I agree with an awful lot of what has been said about previously. I was "lucky" to get a one year temp contract and two maternity leaves after graduation spread over a few years...

I left Ireland 3 years ago and I'm currently applying for permanent residency in Australia.

Four teachers in my school are Irish trained. The board of management in my school has actually said they HEADHUNT Irish trained teachers as we are considered the best trained teachers in the world apparently (not my words!).

Good job they don't have to look too far...!

Out of interest what is it like teaching in Australia?

nqtfarmer

I feel the junior cert is burdensome for many students and admire the hope for developing student skills - as an English teacher I have attended the new JC in services. But of course there are doubts and concerns!!!!
That's it, I enjoy the classroom and I supervise state exams and correct for my summers essentially leaving me with summer holidays beginning 26tg of July.
You're absolutely right about the farm....but that's where I see myself.
Maybe I'm naive and as a sub of course I've less responsibility in the departments but all the negativity can be difficulty