A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 07:40PM

marienbad wrote: »

Yes I would , and if I had my life to start over I would be first in the queue.

But I would only recommend it to those with the vocation for it. I know that drew a sneer the last time I said it, but imho opinion it is utter foolishness to spend up to 40 years of one's life doing something one is less than enthusiastic about and that applies to every profession .

There's no such thing as a vocation.

I do a job. I do it very well. I expect to be paid for that.

Forget vocation.

marienbad · 10-03-2014 08:23PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There's no such thing as a vocation.

I do a job. I do it very well. I expect to be paid for that.

Forget vocation.

Yes ok then , forget vocation , call it what ever you like , but you are foolish to do a job all your life if you don't like it.

And you are paid for it , not as much as you might like , but then who is ?

byhookorbycrook · 10-03-2014 08:31PM

Marienbad, you don't seem to realise that we are talking about new entrants or prospective new entrants. I love teaching and wouldn't do anything else. The erosion of our working conditions impact on us all, new entrants to teaching are getting the really dirty end of the stick ,however, many only get a few hours a week, if that. Their pay has been slashed even more than for those in the job longer. There are hundred of teachers who do not have even long term subbing, much less a prospect of a permanent job.

PinkCat86 · 10-03-2014 08:34PM

Well I am an NQT and I love teaching! despite all the changes!

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 08:46PM

marienbad wrote: »

Yes I would , and if I had my life to start over I would be first in the queue.

But I would only recommend it to those with the vocation for it. I know that drew a sneer the last time I said it, but imho opinion it is utter foolishness to spend up to 40 years of one's life doing something one is less than enthusiastic about and that applies to every profession .

Ok so working from that... How long would you be willing to work part time (that includes not on a full 22hrs cid)... ?

Bearing in mind now that you can forget about supporting a family or contributing towards a mortgage. Would you spend 5 years minimum in college..few hours here and there after..dole for the summer..maybe after about 5 years you might pick up a few of your own hours to start working towards a CID after 3 years.. So that would be minimum age of 31 into your career ..then say by 36 be on about 16 hours and whatever else crumbs from the table.. bare in mind your pension contributions will be career average so assuming you retire at 80 to have enough to see you by... ?
Either that or you bag yourself a wealthy partner so you can persue the wonderful hobby that teaching is...

Out of interest Marienbad what was your occupation?

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 08:49PM

PinkCat86 wrote: »

Well I am an NQT and I love teaching! despite all the changes!

Are you permanent?

marienbad · 10-03-2014 09:03PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Marienbad, you don't seem to realise that we are talking about new entrants or prospective new entrants. I love teaching and wouldn't do anything else. The erosion of our working conditions impact on us all, new entrants to teaching are getting the really dirty end of the stick ,however, many only get a few hours a week, if that. Their pay has been slashed even more than for those in the job longer. There are hundred of teachers who do not have even long term subbing, much less a prospect of a permanent job.

I fully realize that. I have already made the point that the young are being made to pay more than their fair share for the benefit of their older colleagues.

We see this in the teaching profession/Aer lingus/ESB etc where you have the threat of strikes to protect pensions and such that those same younger entrants will never be allowed to join but yet must be part of any strike action. Quite bizarre really .

We see it in wider society where the entitlements of the 'grey vote' are virtually untouchable.

And until that changes the weakest(usually the youngest) will get shafted, be it the single mother or a the new teacher.

marienbad · 10-03-2014 09:14PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Ok so working from that... How long would you be willing to work part time (that includes not on a full 22hrs cid)... ?

Bearing in mind now that you can forget about supporting a family or contributing towards a mortgage. Would you spend 5 years minimum in college..few hours here and there after..dole for the summer..maybe after about 5 years you might pick up a few of your own hours to start working towards a CID after 3 years.. So that would be minimum age of 31 into your career ..then say by 36 be on about 16 hours and whatever else crumbs from the table.. bare in mind your pension contributions will be career average so assuming you retire at 80 to have enough to see you by... ?
Either that or you bag yourself a wealthy partner so you can persue the wonderful hobby that teaching is...

Out of interest Marienbad what was your occupation?

Who can say what I would do, I had to do some crappy jobs when I was starting out . I can assure you Ireland was no paradise in the 70's.

But I fully agree the current situation is grossly unfair and unacceptable . The question is what to do about it.

There are only two possible solutions that I can see- 1- increase the budget or -2 slice the cake differently. Would you agree ?

I was in management in a multinational corporation.

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 11:12PM

marienbad wrote: »

Who can say what I would do, I had to do some crappy jobs when I was starting out . I can assure you Ireland was no paradise in the 70's.

But I fully agree the current situation is grossly unfair and unacceptable . The question is what to do about it.

There are only two possible solutions that I can see- 1- increase the budget or -2 slice the cake differently. Would you agree ?

I was in management in a multinational corporation.

it would appear that slicing the cake differently is being inferred as cutting the more senior members pay to compensate the newer entrants.. A quid pro quo as it were.. Firstly I think its not so simple..mainly as senior members have already been subjected to cuts and an increase in the workload (S&S/CP/HR/Abolition of Posts/increase in class size). Any gains from benchmarking are gone and would have dissipated due to inflation anyway over the last 7 years or so.
The pay packet for a school is not a closed loop either... The money can be found.. I've worked for local council and the old Health Board and believe me there is buckets of money there. Last year my cousin had his road redone for the umpteenth time because if the council dont spend the budget this year they won't get it next year.

Consider the government ministers waxing lyrical about crc, rehab managers breaching public sector pay caps.... Yet they all overlooked the 95k cap when it came to hiring their own personal advisors..

The money is there but it suits peoples agendas to have the 'greedy teachers' myth played out over and over again. Have a listen to how the teachers protest against the junior cert is played out in the media tomorrow.

acequion · 10-03-2014 11:17PM

marienbad wrote: »

I fully realize that. I have already made the point that the young are being made to pay more than their fair share for the benefit of their older colleagues.

We see this in the teaching profession/Aer lingus/ESB etc where you have the threat of strikes to protect pensions and such that those same younger entrants will never be allowed to join but yet must be part of any strike action. Quite bizarre really .

We see it in wider society where the entitlements of the 'grey vote' are virtually untouchable.

And until that changes the weakest(usually the youngest) will get shafted, be it the single mother or a the new teacher.

You're talking utter rubbish as well as making offensive ageist comments! You seem to have this notion that the older are shafting the younger which is patently unfair.Many teachers will tell you that in the recent final capitulation to Haddington Road, younger and older teachers were quite equally guilty of self interest over the overall interest of the profession. Secondly, the older have to work their way up to wherever they are in any profession and have earned their place. Personally I have been hit by two recessions in my working life. One when I was a NQT in the 80's and couldn't get a job and the catch cry of the time was that married women should give up their jobs for us. I was horrified at such an undemocratic concept.I was young and rootless and willing to spread my wings.So I worked abroad for years. Young people have that option over older people who can't just up sticks. I'm not saying it's ideal,far from it but mobility comes easier to the young.

Thirdly, this nonsense that the "grey vote" is untouchable is as simple minded as saying public servants are untouchable. Have you forgotten how several vulnerable older people have now lost medical cards and many more vulnerable still have lost the burial allowance?In addition to less fuel allowances etc. Our senior citizens in their 80's and upwards who've had to endure many a collapse and who can never earn it back. Why would it be ok to shaft them even more? And do you not realise that it's Fianna Fail and not Fine Gael,who tends to buy the elderly vote?

And finally,you are not a teacher, yet you seem to be on this thread a lot arguing with teachers. Why the huge interest in something that you don't have first hand knowledge of?

amacca · 11-03-2014 12:18AM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

There's no such thing as a vocation.

I do a job. I do it very well. I expect to be paid for that.

Forget vocation.

yep, sing that one again.

Its a job and thats that. You may have an interest in it, you may enjoy it hugely but who in the hell is going to do it for free if they have rent/mortgage to pay or a family to support etc

I'll add one thing, I also expect not to be exploited at it either or have working conditions imposed which affect my health

marienbad · 11-03-2014 12:22AM

Armelodie wrote: »

it would appear that slicing the cake differently is being inferred as cutting the more senior members pay to compensate the newer entrants.. A quid pro quo as it were.. Firstly I think its not so simple..mainly as senior members have already been subjected to cuts and an increase in the workload (S&S/CP/HR/Abolition of Posts/increase in class size). Any gains from benchmarking are gone and would have dissipated due to inflation anyway over the last 7 years or so.
The pay packet for a school is not a closed loop either... The money can be found.. I've worked for local council and the old Health Board and believe me there is buckets of money there. Last year my cousin had his road redone for the umpteenth time because if the council dont spend the budget this year they won't get it next year.

Consider the government ministers waxing lyrical about crc, rehab managers breaching public sector pay caps.... Yet they all overlooked the 95k cap when it came to hiring their own personal advisors..

The money is there but it suits peoples agendas to have the 'greedy teachers' myth played out over and over again. Have a listen to how the teachers protest against the junior cert is played out in the media tomorrow.

Firstly -lets get inflation out of the way http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/ireland/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-ireland.aspx

In fact inflation has been virtually static over the last few years .

Secondly- finding the money somewhere else. - That is not really an option. All those examples you give are going to have to be corrected anyway and should have been done sooner. I like you find it sickening watching Local Authorities rushing to spend their budgets rather than lose it next time round. But as I said before two or even three wrongs don't make a right.

If I had my way the Arts Council/Sports Council/Unvouched expenses/ etc etc etc would be done away with until every child in this country was properly housed fed and educated.

But the people we elect have chosen the long slow gradualist approach rather than a slash and burn option.

We have finite resources and we have to live within them ,just like most of the other grown up countries.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 12:45AM

acequion wrote: »

You're talking utter rubbish as well as making offensive ageist comments! You seem to have this notion that the older are shafting the younger which is patently unfair.Many teachers will tell you that in the recent final capitulation to Haddington Road, younger and older teachers were quite equally guilty of self interest over the overall interest of the profession. Secondly, the older have to work their way up to wherever they are in any profession and have earned their place. Personally I have been hit by two recessions in my working life. One when I was a NQT in the 80's and couldn't get a job and the catch cry of the time was that married women should give up their jobs for us. I was horrified at such an undemocratic concept.I was young and rootless and willing to spread my wings.So I worked abroad for years. Young people have that option over older people who can't just up sticks. I'm not saying it's ideal,far from it but mobility comes easier to the young.

Thirdly, this nonsense that the "grey vote" is untouchable is as simple minded as saying public servants are untouchable. Have you forgotten how several vulnerable older people have now lost medical cards and many more vulnerable still have lost the burial allowance?In addition to less fuel allowances etc. Our senior citizens in their 80's and upwards who've had to endure many a collapse and who can never earn it back. Why would it be ok to shaft them even more? And do you not realise that it's Fianna Fail and not Fine Gael,who tends to buy the elderly vote?

And finally,you are not a teacher, yet you seem to be on this thread a lot arguing with teachers. Why the huge interest in something that you don't have first hand knowledge of?

How are they offensive ageist comments ? Get real - there are older people getting state benefits and are not means tested , there are well off families getting child benefits and not means tested. About the only time this government has backed down is when the older crowd took to the streets .
By the way I am one of the older crowd but I didn't take to the streets. Somehow in the great scheme of things hanging on to my free travel was not quite the same as some young family hanging on to their house.

As for you final paragraph - what has that got to do with the price of apples ? I notice from your posting history you had a few comments on Reality Television , have you been on such a programme ? Have you any first hand knowledge of such programmes ? Or do you have the bizarre notion that somehow just because you own a TV ,pay your licence that you are therefore entitled to participate in a public debate on the subject ?

PinkCat86 · 11-03-2014 10:19AM

in rely to Armelodie, no I am not permanent. There is no job security in many career sectors!

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 10:39AM

PinkCat86 wrote: »

in rely to Armelodie, no I am not permanent. There is no job security in many career sectors!

But isnt teaching different? Is it ok for a student to have numerous teachers for one subject in a short space of time ...Is it ok for them to be taught by teachers on minimum hours over a long period. I accept that most people (myself included) enter the profession on a part time basis, but historically the hours would gradually be increased untill a permanent position was created. Now though teachers are being strung along on low hours indefinitely with no career prospects.

Look to the example in the UK a another poster mentioned, the profession has been downgraded to such an extent that they have to get teachers straight from degree to ' try it out first' , sounds good but you have to wonder why a school would hire ten students a year (as another poster in the UK testified to). Cheap labour....

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 10:43AM

marienbad wrote: »

We have finite resources and we have to live within them ,just like most of the other grown up countries.

Reminds me of Charlie Haughty...as a nation we are living way beyond our means...meanwhile...back at the trough.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 12:53PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Reminds me of Charlie Haughty...as a nation we are living way beyond our means...meanwhile...back at the trough.

Indeed and to a certain extend that is still true and that is also wrong .But might I remind you to a person on a minimum wage those teachers on those great pensions or on 60 -70k are deep into that trough you speak of also.

How would you propose we get out of this impasse ?

donegal11 · 11-03-2014 02:06PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Look to the example in the UK a another poster mentioned, the profession has been downgraded to such an extent that they have to get teachers straight from degree to ' try it out first' , sounds good but you have to wonder why a school would hire ten students a year (as another poster in the UK testified to). Cheap labour....

In fairness you make it sound like Ireland was someway superior. Up until last year we had our very own "try it out first" schools in the VEC's, at primary level you could get a job with just a degree, and that's not to mention the amount of unqualified "SUBS" in the non VEC sector. All those unqualified teachers boosted the need for those extra part-time courses at DCU and hibernia(for those working unqualified) which has in turn helped lead to the current oversupply at both levels and destruction of the profession at entry level.

spurious · 11-03-2014 02:14PM

donegal11 wrote: »

In fairness you make it sound like Ireland was someway superior. Up until last year we had our very own "try it out first" schools in the VEC's, at primary level you could get a job with just a degree, and that's not to mention the amount of unqualified "SUBS" in the non VEC sector. All those unqualified teachers boosted the need for those extra part-time courses at DCU and hibernia which has in turn helped lead to the current oversupply at both levels and destruction of the profession at entry level.

Not sure why, but you are completely misrepresenting the situation as it was in the VECs. They were not 'unqualified' teachers. The qualification for the VEC sector was different at the time. In many subjects originally only done in VEC schools, it was not possible to get a teaching qualification, it was not even possible to get a degree in some of the VEC subjects.

There are too many unemployed teachers because the DES keeps fiddling with the PTR, fails to allow replacement of staff who leave or retire and the colleges keep churning out way more than the required number of people in all sorts of minority subjects and unfeasible combinations of subjects as well as the old reliables.

chippers · 11-03-2014 04:35PM

marienbad wrote: »

Indeed and to a certain extend that is still true and that is also wrong .But might I remind you to a person on a minimum wage those teachers on those great pensions or on 60 -70k are deep into that trough you speak of also.

How would you propose we get out of this impasse ?

There is a direct correlation between educational attainment and remuneration. That's the society we live in.

I would suggest that to get out of this impasse that the government invests heavily in education. Bring the PTR right down. Invest heavily in key areas such as maths, economics and science. Invest in the future.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 04:47PM

chippers wrote: »

There is a direct correlation between educational attainment and remuneration. That's the society we live in.

I would suggest that to get out of this impasse that the government invests heavily in education. Bring the PTR right down. Invest heavily in key areas such as maths, economics and science. Invest in the future.

Absolutely agree with this, but how to achieve it is another matter.

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 05:31PM

marienbad wrote: »

Absolutely agree with this, but how to achieve it is another matter.

well it ain't rocket science...just reduce the ptr and make teaching an attractive profession to enter into. Yes that means paying higher wages . Otherwise ...see post 1.

marienbad · 11-03-2014 06:37PM

Armelodie wrote: »

well it ain't rocket science...just reduce the ptr and make teaching an attractive profession to enter into. Yes that means paying higher wages . Otherwise ...see post 1.

And what about reducing the wages at the top of the scale, bringing in real performance related pay, making it easier to move on non per performers, and doing something about increments ?

Until those kind of issues are at least recognised and discussed there is little possibility of achieving the goal of attracting new entrants. And the government of whichever hue will just continue to use blunt instruments to achieve their goals .

evolving_doors · 11-03-2014 06:47PM

marienbad wrote: »

And what about reducing the wages at the top of the scale, bringing in real performance related pay, making it easier to move on non per performers, and doing something about increments ?

Until those kind of issues are at least recognised and discussed there is little possibility of achieving the goal of attracting new entrants. And the government of whichever hue will just continue to use blunt instruments to achieve their goals .

Yeah go on let us know about this performance related pay you speak of. How would it work to fire those bad teachers. Ive never heard this debate before.
Cctv in classrooms?
Payment by grades achieved?
Measurement by aptitude tests?
Assessment by a colleague?
Performance review by principal?
Evaluation by students?
Evaluation by parents?
Inspection by private consultancy firm?
Measurement of seratonin levels of pupils after each class?
Rate my teacher?

What did you have in mind?

marienbad · 11-03-2014 06:58PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Yeah go on let us know about this performance related pay you speak of. How would it work to fire those bad teachers. Ive never heard this debate before.
Cctv in classrooms?
Payment by grades achieved?
Measurement by aptitude tests?
Assessment by a colleague?
Performance review by principal?
Evaluation by students?
Evaluation by parents?
Inspection by private consultancy firm?
Measurement of seratonin levels of pupils after each class?
Rate my teacher?

What did you have in mind?

I don't have anything in mind to be honest, but if it works in most every other field of human endeavour why would teaching be exempt ?

Why are teachers so afraid of change ? We had the exact same reaction to benchmarking and that worked out well enough for you.

Teachers doing their jobs have nothing to fear from such measures and good teachers will actually benefit.

Protecting poor performers benefits no-one and actually militates against newer entrants.

ytareh · 11-03-2014 07:02PM

marienbad wrote: »

Why are teachers so afraid of change ? We had the exact same reaction to benchmarking and that worked out well enough for you

That's highly debatable !

marienbad · 11-03-2014 07:07PM

ytareh wrote: »

That's highly debatable !

Are you saying teachers weren't initially adamantly opposed to benchmarking ?

chippers · 11-03-2014 07:13PM

marienbad wrote: »

I don't have anything in mind to be honest, but if it works in most every other field of human endeavour why would teaching be exempt ?

No it doesn't work in every field of human endeavour.

Performance related pay for social workers....

gaeilgebeo · 11-03-2014 07:14PM

marienbad wrote: »

Teachers doing their jobs have nothing to fear from such measures and good teachers will actually benefit.

What defines a good teacher?

I work in a DEIS school where a lot of students have behavioural, emotional and learning difficulties.
My exam classes got mostly Ds and Cs in the Junior/Leaving Cert exams.
This was a huge achievement for them.

Will I be considered an under-performing teacher based on my results?
After all, the results from the grammar school down the road were mostly As and Bs.

That'd me me out of a job so!

Can you explain how it would work?

byhookorbycrook · 11-03-2014 07:17PM

marienbad wrote: »

I don't have anything in mind to be honest, but if it works in most every other field of human endeavour why would teaching be exempt ?

Why are teachers so afraid of change ? We had the exact same reaction to benchmarking and that worked out well enough for you.

Teachers doing their jobs have nothing to fear from such measures and good teachers will actually benefit.

Protecting poor performers benefits no-one and actually militates against newer entrants.

How do you decide who under performs?
Results? So, the well heeled school that cherry picks and has parents who can and do pay for grinds get better results than a school where there is little support from home and no money for extra tuition , which teachers "perform" better?

I work in learning support with children with different educational needs, if they don't go from a standard score of 70 in literacy to 110 in a term ,do I get docked wages?

A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

Comments