A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

Peter Flynt · 09-03-2014 11:32PM

Godge wrote: »

Increments are for experience, last I checked teachers got them in Ireland.

A rise in the incremental scale is not an allowance.

The Government can freeze the incremental scale (as they have done in Haddington Road).

Peter Flynt · 09-03-2014 11:33PM

seavill wrote: »

Not strictly true, there are still permanent jobs every year, granted very few, but permanent jobs do still exist. For the majority the best they can hope for is a CID but some permanent ones do come up each year.

I'd say that's probably the case. In my school no one has been made permanent in 6 years . . all CIDs.

seavill · 09-03-2014 11:35PM

2 in my school last year. 1 in a neighbouring school. Had been a few years since last one in both in fairness but do exist the odd time

endakenny · 09-03-2014 11:40PM

DK man wrote: »

Add to the op list - being told to attend pastoral care meetings during your lunch break as part of your hra hours - and if your late because you are having a rushed sandwich getting a personal phone call from the principal

If I was starting out again there's no way I'd get into teaching

The CPA and the HRA didn't say that meetings had to be done during lunchtime. After all, depriving workers of a lunch break probably would be a breach of health and safety law and a teacher fainting during class because of being deprived of the opportunity to have lunch would make the principal look bad. Given that not every teacher in a school does pastoral care (PC) and the CPA/HRA hours involve teachers attending meetings in the same building and at the same time, I don't see how having PC meetings done as part of the CPA/HRA hours is workable.

Doris300 · 09-03-2014 11:42PM

THIS PEOPLE ARE RAISING THEY FUTURE, THEY ARE AS IMPORTANT AS DOCTORS

Peter Flynt · 09-03-2014 11:46PM

endakenny wrote: »

The CPA and the HRA didn't say that meetings had to be done during lunchtime. After all, depriving workers of a lunch break probably would be a breach of health and safety law and a teacher fainting during class because of being deprived of the opportunity to have lunch would make the principal look bad. Given that not every teacher in a school does pastoral care (PC) and the CPA/HRA hours involve teachers attending meetings in the same building and at the same time, I don't see how having PC meetings done as part of the CPA/HRA hours is workable.

Last Monday for me went as follows:

09:35 - 10.15 - Class
10:15 - 10.55 - Haddington Road Substitution
11.05 - 12.25 - Class (with DES inspector observing)
12.25 - 13.05 - Class
13.05 - 13.40 Haddington Road Lunchtime Supervision
13.40 - 14.20 - Meeting with DES inspector
13.40 - 15.40 - Class

Feckin 6 hours and 5 minutes with a ten minute break.

PS - I continued working until 17.45 in the school on other duties before resuming work at home later that evening.

Supersonic42 · 10-03-2014 12:04AM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Last Monday for me went as follows:

09:35 - 10.15 - Class
10:15 - 10.55 - Haddington Road Substitution
11.05 - 12.25 - Class (with DES inspector observing)
12.25 - 13.05 - Class
13.05 - 13.40 Haddington Road Lunchtime Supervision
13.40 - 14.20 - Meeting with DES inspector
13.40 - 15.40 - Class

Feckin 6 hours and 5 minutes with a ten minute break.

PS - I continued working until 17.45 in the school on other duties before resuming work at home later that evening.

In fairness that's isn't exactly a true reflection of a standard teaching day. It sounds like the busiest day you could possible have. Also having a DES inspector in and still being required to carry out s&s seems a bit unreasonable by management.

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 12:11AM

Supersonic42 wrote: »

In fairness that's isn't exactly a true reflection of a standard teaching day. It sounds like the busiest day you could possible have. Also having a DES inspector in and still being required to carry out s&s seems a bit unreasonable by management.

My day is as busy as that. Granted it's only once in a while an inspector is in the school but I've full timetabled days 4 days a week thanks to Haddington Road.

I do at least 90 minutes each day every day after school regardless of Croke PArk.

Resuming work at home is normal.

endakenny · 10-03-2014 12:21AM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Last Monday for me went as follows:

09:35 - 10.15 - Class
10:15 - 10.55 - Haddington Road Substitution
11.05 - 12.25 - Class (with DES inspector observing)
12.25 - 13.05 - Class
13.05 - 13.40 Haddington Road Lunchtime Supervision
13.40 - 14.20 - Meeting with DES inspector
13.40 - 15.40 - Class

Feckin 6 hours and 5 minutes with a ten minute break.

PS - I continued working until 17.45 in the school on other duties before resuming work at home later that evening.

What happens to the pupils who you normally teach during the time in which you have the meeting with the inspector? Why are meetings with inspectors not held during the CPA/HRA hours so that class is not disrupted?

implausible · 10-03-2014 12:41AM

endakenny wrote: »

What happens to the pupils who you normally teach during the time in which you have the meeting with the inspector? Why are meetings with inspectors not held during the CPA/HRA hours so that class is not disrupted?

One of the biggest issues with CP hours is the lack of flexibility. CP hours must be done by all teachers at the same time. They were never designed for teaching, didn't stop the Govt from trying to shoehorn us into them though...

Godge · 10-03-2014 12:39PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Then why aren't they called permanent contracts then?

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

From Pravda:

"Teachers employed on contracts of indefinite duration (CID) have all the same rights and entitlements as permanent teachers"

Al it is is the use of modern terminology reflecting the legislative changes.

Peter Flynt wrote: »

A rise in the incremental scale is not an allowance.

The Government can freeze the incremental scale (as they have done in Haddington Road).

Semantics.

You cannot make a bald statement that teachers do not get allowances for experience when they are on an incremental scale whereby they get an increase in pay with experience.

If you prefer, we could call on the Minister to abolish the incremental pay scale and replace the incremental points with non-pensionable allowances to reflect experience?

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 12:50PM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

From Pravda:

"Teachers employed on contracts of indefinite duration (CID) have all the same rights and entitlements as permanent teachers"

Al it is is the use of modern terminology reflecting the legislative changes.

Semantics.

You cannot make a bald statement that teachers do not get allowances for experience when they are on an incremental scale whereby they get an increase in pay with experience.

If you prefer, we could call on the Minister to abolish the incremental pay scale and replace the incremental points with non-pensionable allowances to reflect experience?

I don;t know what angle you are taking here but a CID does not equal a full permanent contract of which you are entitled to 22 hrs a week. For example I am on a CID of below 18 hrs and I don not ever envisage this changing soon, so are many of my colleagues.. By the way there are hours there to increase me into a full time position but as per the previous postings these hours are divvied up between other teachers to keep them tipping along. The division of a 22hr position into multiple jobs has been discussed in this forum at length.

Also have a look at the Objective Grounds for dismissal link which definitely does not make the job in any way permanent... believe me as teachers we have known of cases where people have been let go and others re-re-employed into the same position.

CID is not the same as Permanent... if it was then it would be called permanent.

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 01:40PM

Godge wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/non-permanent-teachers/cids-explained/

From Pravda:

"Teachers employed on contracts of indefinite duration (CID) have all the same rights and entitlements as permanent teachers"

That's employment law and nothing to do with having a CID or any other type of contract.

It is possible to have a CID on 4 hours for instance meaning that the teacher has only a guarantee of 4 hours in the next academic year. A permanent teacher has a guarantee of a full time job with a full time wage. They are not the same.

You cannot make a bald statement that teachers do not get allowances for experience when they are on an incremental scale whereby they get an increase in pay with experience.

If you prefer, we could call on the Minister to abolish the incremental pay scale and replace the incremental points with non-pensionable allowances to reflect experience?

New teachers are not given allowances unless they have a management post which is extremely unlikely in at least the first 10-15 years of their fulltime position.

There is an incremental scale.

An incremental scale is not an allowance.

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 01:42PM

Armelodie wrote: »

CID is not the same as Permanent... if it was then it would be called permanent.

You'd think that would go without saying.

Godge · 10-03-2014 01:50PM

Armelodie wrote: »

I don;t know what angle you are taking here but a CID does not equal a full permanent contract of which you are entitled to 22 hrs a week. For example I am on a CID of below 18 hrs and I don not ever envisage this changing soon, so are many of my colleagues.. By the way there are hours there to increase me into a full time position but as per the previous postings these hours are divvied up between other teachers to keep them tipping along. The division of a 22hr position into multiple jobs has been discussed in this forum at length.

Also have a look at the Objective Grounds for dismissal link which definitely does not make the job in any way permanent... believe me as teachers we have known of cases where people have been let go and others re-re-employed into the same position.

CID is not the same as Permanent... if it was then it would be called permanent.

In law CID is the same as permanent. The usage of the term "CID" came into being as a result of the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term) Act, 2003.

Separately, as a result of the implementation of a separate, earlier piece of legislation the Protection of Employees (Part-Time) Act, 2001, the practice arose of awarding pro-rata contracts (these replaced EPTs) to part-time staff. Once these pro-rata staff had more than 4 years service, they became CID/permanent, albeit on a part-time pro-rata basis.

To put it a different way, the 2001 Act gave certain rights to part-time teachers who gained pro-rata status and all the entitlements to holidays, sick leave, maternity leave etc. that entailed. However, the 2001 Act did not give permanency to these pro-rata staff. No matter how long they would work in a school they would not acquire the right to permanency.

The 2003 Act gave permanency/CID status to all temporary employees (once they had 4 years and there were no objective grounds) whether they were part-time or full-time. So while this meant permanent status for a group of temporary wholetime teachers, it also meant permanent status for all the pro-rata teachers. Of course, permanency does not equate with full-time, which is where most teachers fall down in understanding CIDs. The introduction by law of a measure to protect vulnerable part-time employees ironically led to an increase in the number of such part-time teachers in the second-level sector.

The link you provided is in full agreement with me on this by the way. Objective grounds do not apply to a CID, they apply before you get a CID or to prevent a CID, but once you have a CID, no amount of objective grounds can have you dismissed.

thomas anderson. · 10-03-2014 01:54PM

Doris300 wrote: »

THIS PEOPLE ARE RAISING THEY FUTURE, THEY ARE AS IMPORTANT AS DOCTORS

this is why we need good teachers ^^^

Godge · 10-03-2014 01:55PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

That's employment law and nothing to do with having a CID or any other type of contract.

It is possible to have a CID on 4 hours for instance meaning that the teacher has only a guarantee of 4 hours in the next academic year. A permanent teacher has a guarantee of a full time job with a full time wage. They are not the same.

The right of permanency does not mean a right to full-time employment, it means a right to permanent employment.

Peter Flynt wrote: »

New teachers are not given allowances unless they have a management post which is extremely unlikely in at least the first 10-15 years of their fulltime position.

There is an incremental scale.

An incremental scale is not an allowance.

I know all of that. Look at your original post.

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What salary is that?

The points you make are valid and I've responded to them in the post above.

However there are circumstances whereby teachers in Ireland are receiving less than teachers in London (UK) and the reverse is also true.

You rightly state that allowances require experience. Fair enough - but there's no allowance for any experience or any extra work taken on in Ireland.

A lot of extra work is done without payment in Ireland.

I agree that there is no allowance for any experience in Ireland, however, there are incremental points for experience gained. That is the same thing.

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 01:59PM

Godge wrote: »

Once these pro-rata staff had more than 4 years service, they became CID/permanent, albeit on a part-time pro-rata basis. . . . .
The 2003 Act gave permanency/CID status to all temporary employees (once they had 4 years and there were no objective grounds) whether they were part-time or full-time. So while this meant permanent status for a group of temporary wholetime teachers, it also meant permanent status for all the pro-rata teachers. Of course, permanency does not equate with full-time, which is where most teachers fall down in understanding CIDs. The introduction by law of a measure to protect vulnerable part-time employees ironically led to an increase in the number of such part-time teachers in the second-level sector.

The link you provided is in full agreement with me on this by the way. Objective grounds do not apply to a CID, they apply before you get a CID or to prevent a CID, but once you have a CID, no amount of objective grounds can have you dismissed.

A CID on 4, 5, 6, 7 hours may be permanent in the eyes of the law . . . but it's a worthless number of hours in terms of earning a living or trying to maintain a future within the profession

A CID and traditional "permanent" position are only equal when that CID is for 22 hours.

marienbad · 10-03-2014 02:40PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

A CID on 4, 5, 6, 7 hours may be permanent in the eyes of the law . . . but it's a worthless number of hours in terms of earning a living or trying to maintain a future within the profession

A CID and traditional "permanent" position are only equal when that CID is for 22 hours.

were there no part time positions in the era of 'traditional permanent positions ' ?

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 05:51PM

marienbad wrote: »

were there no part time positions in the era of 'traditional permanent positions ' ?

Indeed there was... Although back in those days you didn't have such a large proportion of the over all teaching cohort being strung along ' indefinitely' like they are now...

Getting back to the op... Teaching is a part time profession for new entrants... And the chances are the vast majority of new entrants who find some work will never become permanent...because CIDs (not on full hours) are the new permanacy don't you know
Forget about a pension.
Forget about a family
Forget about a mortgage
Forget about calling it a profession..

But hey ...its a vocation and the rewards are great (non monetary rewards of course)

marienbad · 10-03-2014 05:53PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Indeed there was... Although back in those days you didn't have such a large proportion of the over all teaching cohort being strung along ' indefinitely' like they are now...

Getting back to the op... Teaching is a part time profession for new entrants... And the chances are the vast majority of new entrants who find some work will never become permanent...because CIDs (not on full hours) are the new permanacy don't you know
Forget about a pension.
Forget about a family
Forget about a mortgage
Forget about calling it a profession..

But hey ...its a vocation and the rewards are great (non monetary rewards of course)

So what changed and why ?

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 06:15PM

marienbad wrote: »

So what changed and why ?

Moritorium on recruitment..change in ptr...

Why... Property speculation...

marienbad · 10-03-2014 06:31PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Moritorium on recruitment..change in ptr...

Why... Property speculation...

You really can't be serious ?

There are two crises in the economy - the property and banking crisis and the living beyond our means crisis .

Even if we never had a banking crisis we would still have had to rein in our spending habits. It was simply unsustainable .

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 06:35PM

marienbad wrote: »

You really can't be serious ?

There are two crises in the economy - the property and banking crisis and the living beyond our means crisis .

Even if we never had a banking crisis we would still have had to rein in our spending habits. It was simply unsustainable .

Approximately 70,000 million euro was spent on bailing out the banks.

I don't see them having to "rein in" anything.

Doesn't matter in anyway. It's all history now.

marienbad · 10-03-2014 06:46PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Approximately 70,000 million euro was spent on bailing out the banks.

I don't see them having to "rein in" anything.

Doesn't matter in anyway. It's all history now.

Indeed it was spent on the banks and we all have our views on the wisdom of that.

But that doesn't change the fact we were overspending in an unsustainable way irrespective of the property and banking debacle .

And we still are . Do you disagree with that ?

And by the way it very much matters ,it may be history but do we want to continue repeating it ?

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 06:47PM

marienbad wrote: »

You really can't be serious ?

There are two crises in the economy - the property and banking crisis and the living beyond our means crisis .

Even if we never had a banking crisis we would still have had to rein in our spending habits. It was simply unsustainable .

So thats your trump card then? Teachers were getting paid too much (and what about the holidays Joe).

Well I guess then all our problems have been solved with the cutbacks then...lets see how that turns out then...actually you don't have to ...just ask anyone you know who entered the ' profession' in the last 5 years...Do you know anyone like this btw? Do they have a permanent contract... But we were all living beyond our means partying hard buying flats in bulgaria weren't we...

I suppose its time for new entrants to start paying..How dare they earn a living, jobbridge is too good for them.

Peter Flynt · 10-03-2014 06:52PM

marienbad wrote: »

Indeed it was spent on the banks and we all have our views on the wisdom of that.

But that doesn't change the fact we were overspending in an unsustainable way irrespective of the property and banking debacle .

And we still are . Do you disagree with that ?

And by the way it very much matters ,it may be history but do we want to continue repeating it ?

We weren't overspending. Budgets were, by and large, balanced prior to 2008.

The problem was when the crash came in 2008 Ireland's dependence on construction generated taxation (around 25% of tax income) became badly exposed as the property market crashed and liquidity into Irish banks came to a stop.

The deficit now is due to the money owed in interest. . . roughly 9-10 billion per year. The primary deficit has been bridged.

Neither here nor there. . . We'll all be long gone after this debt is finally repaid.

marienbad · 10-03-2014 06:54PM

Armelodie wrote: »

So thats your trump card then? Teachers were getting paid too much (and what about the holidays Joe).

Well I guess then all our problems have been solved with the cutbacks then...lets see how that turns out then...actually you don't have to ...just ask anyone you know who entered the ' profession' in the last 5 years...Do you know anyone like this btw? Do they have a permanent contract... But we were all living beyond our means partying hard buying flats in bulgaria weren't we...

I suppose its time for new entrants to start paying..How dare they earn a living, jobbridge is too good for them.

Everyone was getting paid too much , old age pensioners, disability allowance, children's allowance, teachers, carpenters, esb workers,chefs,managers, the lot.

And our problems haven't been solved with the cutbacks as the cutbacks simply weren't severe enough or targeted enough or a combination of both.

For a teachers forum ye seem to have a problem with the maths.

evolving_doors · 10-03-2014 07:17PM

marienbad wrote: »

Everyone was getting paid too much , old age pensioners, disability allowance, children's allowance, teachers, carpenters, esb workers,chefs,managers, the lot.

And our problems haven't been solved with the cutbacks as the cutbacks simply weren't severe enough or targeted enough or a combination of both.

For a teachers forum ye seem to have a problem with the maths.

Well then we get to the crux of thread...

Would you encourage someone to join our profession?

Simple question.

marienbad · 10-03-2014 07:37PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Well then we get to the crux of thread...

Would you encourage someone to join our profession?

Simple question.

Yes I would , and if I had my life to start over I would be first in the queue.

But I would only recommend it to those with the vocation for it. I know that drew a sneer the last time I said it, but imho opinion it is utter foolishness to spend up to 40 years of one's life doing something one is less than enthusiastic about and that applies to every profession .

A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

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