A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

Just to revisit a few earlier points...

@Marienbad

I actually agree with some of the points you have made (I should have been an accountant and there should be a mechanism for dealing with non-performing teachers) and am open to persuasion on others (your contention that the salary is better than 'reasonable')

However,

I disagree with your assertion that the further you get from your degree the less effective you become ....and that experience adds little added value once a certain point is reached. The root of our disagreement in this particular example is, I suspect, that we have hugely different philosophies of education an argument that might be interesting but would certainly derail this thread.

Lastly and most importantly, I cannot allow your post about the teacher (not a principal/deputy principal) whose final salary was over 90k to go unchallenged. I know that is not true and have provided the figures to prove it and you have casually dismissed them, glibly stating that you can't ask to see her salary slip and pointing me towards other 'allowances' that I a teacher for 32 years have never heard of? Do you not think I would have made myself aware of these 'allowances' in my own self interest????

You make some good points, but you should desist from exaggerating to underline them. It makes me approach all of your posts with a degree of scepticism.

Maryanne40 wrote: »

Just to revisit a few earlier points...

@Marienbad

I actually agree with some of the points you have made (I should have been an accountant and there should be a mechanism for dealing with non-performing teachers) and am open to persuasion on others (your contention that the salary is better than 'reasonable')

However,

I disagree with your assertion that the further you get from your degree the less effective you become ....and that experience adds little added value once a certain point is reached. The root of our disagreement in this particular example is, I suspect, that we have hugely different philosophies of education an argument that might be interesting but would certainly derail this thread.

Lastly and most importantly, I cannot allow your post about the teacher (not a principal/deputy principal) whose final salary was over 90k to go unchallenged. I know that is not true and have provided the figures to prove it and you have casually dismissed them, glibly stating that you can't ask to see her salary slip and pointing me towards other 'allowances' that I a teacher for 32 years have never heard of? Do you not think I would have made myself aware of these 'allowances' in my own self interest????

You make some good points, but you should desist from exaggerating to underline them. It makes me approach all of your posts with a degree of scepticism.

Maryanne- well my posts don't stand or fall on that specific issue and I don't mean to be dismissive but I actually can't ask to see her salary slip !

But you give the example of 72k - that just as easily proves my point ! That is an outstanding salary for a non management role in any profession.

That is particularly so when you could have two teachers side by side and one earning twice the pay as the other for the same job !

As to the value of experience- are you saying that a teacher with 25 years experience is more qualified that a teacher with 10 ? Seriously ?

Armelodie wrote: »

Firstly, were not a bunch of nuns... vocation won't pay anyone's rent. People talk about new entrants salary , but in fact its only hours they get. And for how long! Then they're into the CID 'indefinite' limbo for another decade or so till enough teachers retire.

The second bolded point shows you don't see how things are getting worse. Finland planned to improve education and that it would take decades , the profession as it stands now is being pushed down the road of destruction over the next number of decades. If you take it as a given that we are following the UK path (as many teachers here do) then you could assume that we will be where they are now in 15 years time. They are only waking up to the rot that has set in now.... Look at the attrition rate out of the profession there from burnout. That's where were headed.

Public sentiment for teachers is long gone as can be seen from the misinformation trotted out by every expert who went to school and think they know.

Every time it resorts to the summer holidays rathole... Back to the thread title ... How would you feed a new entrant on yummy 'vocational' sentiment over the summer when the vast majority are just short term part time contracts....

Are nurses, doctors , dentists, (any other public, civil servent) offered a 'few hours' starting out...and then keep this ticking over for years until a part time CID puts you in your place. If you had a son in 6th year now you would honestly advise them into teaching?

Do you think teachers and unions have any responsibility for the current situation ?

When resources are finite it is a simple mathematical equation and the government hand in glove and with direction from the unions have decided to protect the older members at the expense of the younger .

That being the case it simply has to be worked through . Do you have any suggestions otherwise ?

I personally believe it is appalling but then my opinion is irrelevant. This didn't happen overnight and won't be solved overnight and as usual in Ireland the burden is borne by the youngest and weakest .

Pwpane wrote: »

You're very glib with statements of opinion. When asked to back them up with any evidence at all, you just side step with an 'innocuous' question. This is the third time you have stated the above, with nothing to back you up other than opinion. Any word on that lady's salary either?

There's no need to be appalled at things that aren't true. Take a break!

Actually - I have backed up most of my statements with independent links and as for that particular statement - are you reading the thread ???

It is a litany of how new entrants are being victimised ! What more evidence do you need ?

marienbad wrote: »

please oh please lets not go down the postholder road ! This is why these threads have so little credibility .

You have no credibility.

Marienbad,

Ok, I agree your points do not stand or fall on that particular issue but if you are quoting figures, I think you should get them right.

I am actually including a 'special duties' allowance in the 72k....let's call it 'middle management'. And by the way I don't consider 72k an 'outstanding salary in any profession' and I doubt you will either when you are my age and trying to put 3 children through college. (This may be irrelevant in a general sense but it certainly isn't for me, as I am trying to balance my household budget!)

Furthermore in a primary school such as my own, we are all effectively 'management' now as none of these promoted positions are being replaced, but all the work remains, as I am sure you are well aware and somebody has to do it. Everybody is giving of themselves in a management capacity to keep the school running as efficiently as it always has done.

In regard to teachers earning different amounts for doing the same job...I dislike the '2 tier system' as you call it certainly. It does not sit easily with me that NQT's are on a different pay scale, but it is to be hoped that this situation will eventually be corrected with the passage of time. Meanwhile I really don't see that having older more experienced teachers join the race to the bottom, will achieve anything.

I do however believe in the incremental scale and that it is absolutely fair that the teacher with 25 years experience earns more than the teacher with 10. No, the 47 year old is not more 'qualified' than the 32 year old but she has more life experience, which is hugely valuable....especially in teaching, which is not a box ticking exercise or formulaic but something much more dense, intricate, delicate and organic. (You will appreciate I am not a fan of going down the UK route of education...notes for notes sake etc etc.....although I know we have already begun doing so.....a recipe for disaster in my opinion...but we could get another thread out of that!)

Marienbad....I think that on this thread we are all fighting with the wrong people. We are all interested in the education system and what is best going forward. I would hate if teaching became a career nobody wanted. For what it's worth I didn't become an accountant because I would have hated it!!! and I have loved every minute (well almost every minute) of my 32 years in schools and classrooms! But I make no apology that I earn a salary that (just about) keeps my family.

Armelodie wrote: »

Resources aren't finite...look at the cap on public service pay the govt are banging on about with rehab... But yet numerous ministers broke this cap to pay way over the odds for their special advisors. The money can be found for some but not for the little people.

'the little people' !! some sense of entitlement right there . Two wrongs don't make a right

implausible wrote: »

But you have asserted that a teacher you know, who wasn't in a management role, retired on 90k. Other posters have calculated that the maximum a teacher who wasn't a principal or deputy principal could have finished her career on is 72k and to be getting that 72k, the teacher would have had to be a postholder.

Repeating an uninformed teacher-bashing figure like that takes from any other credible points you may have. It's like sticking a tabloid headline on a serious article. We get figures like that thrown at us on a regular basis, when we know for a fact that the figure is wrong and that none of us will ever earn a figure like that, but people outside teaching don't want to hear the actual facts.

Not at all - I have given loads of links to most of my points and I have even conceded that short of producing that lady's payslip there is not much more I can do , so until I produce that payslip I have accepted the figure of 72k as nearly as suitable for my argument .

As for postholder do you accept the the majority of these are also throwbacks and just an additional way to increase pay and that is why they are being phased out ?

Maryanne40 wrote: »

Marienbad,

Ok, I agree your points do not stand or fall on that particular issue but if you are quoting figures, I think you should get them right.

I am actually including a 'special duties' allowance in the 72k....let's call it 'middle management'. And by the way I don't consider 72k an 'outstanding salary in any profession' and I doubt you will either when you are my age and trying to put 3 children through college. (This may be irrelevant in a general sense but it certainly isn't for me, as I am trying to balance my household budget!)

Furthermore in a primary school such as my own, we are all effectively 'management' now as none of these promoted positions are being replaced, but all the work remains, as I am sure you are well aware and somebody has to do it. Everybody is giving of themselves in a management capacity to keep the school running as efficiently as it always has done.

In regard to teachers earning different amounts for doing the same job...I dislike the '2 tier system' as you call it certainly. It does not sit easily with me that NQT's are on a different pay scale, but it is to be hoped that this situation will eventually be corrected with the passage of time. Meanwhile I really don't see that having older more experienced teachers join the race to the bottom, will achieve anything.

I do however believe in the incremental scale and that it is absolutely fair that the teacher with 25 years experience earns more than the teacher with 10. No, the 47 year old is not more 'qualified' than the 32 year old but she has more life experience, which is hugely valuable....especially in teaching, which is not a box ticking exercise or formulaic but something much more dense, intricate, delicate and organic. (You will appreciate I am not a fan of going down the UK route of education...notes for notes sake etc etc.....although I know we have already begun doing so.....a recipe for disaster in my opinion...but we could get another thread out of that!)

Marienbad....I think that on this thread we are all fighting with the wrong people. We are all interested in the education system and what is best going forward. I would hate if teaching became a career nobody wanted. For what it's worth I didn't become an accountant because I would have hated it!!! and I have loved every minute (well almost every minute) of my 32 years in schools and classrooms! But I make no apology that I earn a salary that (just about) keeps my family.

Maryanne , I would say I am older than you and I have put 4 kids through college and I assure you in the wider world 72k is a fabulous salary for 'middle management' as you describe it . And I did that on pro rata a lot less than 72k and much higher taxes - but as you know we do what we have to do.

As for an incremental scale , I will never agree with it and it has no foundation in an equal and fair society - equal pay for equal work was the mantra for women to be paid the same as men . It was true in that case and it is true in this case , just substitute young and old for men and women . After a limited timeframe in any job experience is equal and should be paid accordingly .

For what it is worth I believe that top out salary should be lower but the speed through the grades should be much,much faster .

Do teachers really stay up this late?:rolleyes: