Can We Not Build Infrastructure Rather than Houses?

05-03-2014 10:14PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

A lot of that is delivery's/haulage goods and so on.

Where?

There is no issue getting into Dublin on the bus or train people choose to go in in cars.

There are plenty of issues.

If you made everyone get the train/luas/bus into town i doubt there would be any need for a metro so why is it needed ?

What? If everyone was forced to do X there'd be no need for Y? What kind of argument is that?

seems it’s a lot of x Eu capital has this why don't we thinking weather it’s actually feasible or needed.

It's a lot of what? Plenty has been done to see how feasible the plans were and most were feasible. Then lies were used to campaign against them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Congested due to bad decisions made in the past, make the country car dependent and then skimp on roads and then only build them too late. Insufficient rapid transit systems mean that many just stay in their cars. In London the majority of commuters wouldn't even dare to bring the car!

Reasons are fairly irrelevant unless we're to consider a major road building programme through the city. The lack of integration (spatially and with ticketing is a massive issue as well as capacity. But nah, let's spend over €100 million to open a rail line in the west with a dozen people using it.

WoollyRedHat · 05-03-2014 10:19PM

I personally think the lads should build a bridge passing through Iceland, Greenland and then towards North America and in the opposite direction a bridge connection to the U.K and one going to Spain from Munster. That'll keep em busy and we can all go and cheer them on. The lads to finish their bridge first get a free pint each. Now that might seem silly, considering it's a lot further to N. America than Spain or the U.K, but it will give the North American Bridgers that extra push.

05-03-2014 10:20PM

Borderfox wrote: »

Monorail Monorail Monorail Monorail

4 monorails side by side, isn't that a standard twin track!

Cienciano · 05-03-2014 10:34PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Dublin has less people than Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

And Bochum has a population of 350,000 and has an underground rail system. Lots of small cities have them. Lille has one. Re
Jakarta has a population of 10m and has no metro. So the point about manchester is meaningless.

carlmango11 · 05-03-2014 10:35PM

kneemos wrote: »

Are they still borrowing two billion a week or whatever it is?
That might be the reason.

lol

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean the metro ? because we need a metro with having to move our millions of daily commuters in Dublin....:rolleyes:

Yes, we do need Metro North and DART Underground. It's incredibly obvious actually. For a city of its size Dublin is extremely lacking in public transport.

The amount of ignorance on this thread is surprising.

I would imagine the people who are saying that we "don't need it" haven't spent much time commuting in Dublin.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Dublin has less people than Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

Lyon and Glasgow are two cities off the top of my head, both smaller or similar size to Dublin with underground systems

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 10:36PM

Where?

There are a few shops in Dublin city maybe they need goods to be delivered.

There are plenty of issues.

I accept some places are hard to get from but a lot of people have access to parking at the luas.

What? If everyone was forced to do X there'd be no need for Y? What kind of argument is that?

same logic as saying lots of congestion lets build a Metro and not deal with the congestion in other ways.

It's a lot of what? Plenty has been done to see how feasible the plans were and most were feasible. Then lies were used to campaign against them.

Removing cars and supplying more bus routes, And buses would be infinitely cheaper than building a metro. And once there was a metro maintained is very pricy also.

Reasons are fairly irrelevant unless we're to consider a major road building programme through the city. The lack of integration (spatially and with ticketing is a massive issue as well as capacity. But nah, let's spend over €100 million to open a rail line in the west with a dozen people using it.

Yeah so let just speed billions on something else that's not needed.

carlmango11 · 05-03-2014 10:41PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Removing cars and supplying more bus routs, And bus’s would be infinitely cheaper than building a metro. And once there was a metro maintained is very pricy also.

With countless buses being such a perfect solution you'd wonder why almost every city in the world has turned to rail as it grew?

They're quick and cheap with no need for significant, long-term investment. A perfect Irish solution.

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 10:45PM

carlmango11 wrote: »

With countless buses being such a perfect solution you'd wonder why almost every city in the world has turned to rail as it grew?

They're quick and cheap with no need for significant, long-term investment. A perfect Irish solution.

They can afford to build them run them and maintain them... Plenty of city's around the world using the bus model like trains.

05-03-2014 10:45PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There are a few shops in Dublin city maybe they need goods to be delivered.

But not in other cities?

I accept some places are hard to get from but a lot of people have access to parking at the luas.

Well done you.

same logic as saying lots of congestion lets build a Metro and not deal with the congestion in other ways.

Reducing traffic numbers is about the only way to deal with congestion.

Removing cars and supplying more bus routs, And bus’s would be infinitely cheaper than building a metro. And once there was a metro maintained is very pricy also.

How do you remove cars? Tax them? I'd rather use a carrot than a stick tbh.
There's a limit as to the effect buses can have and Dublin isn't far off that limit despite recent cut-backs.

Yeah so let just speed billions on something else that's not needed.

Yet CBA's showed it was worth it. Metro North with 20 million people a year passing through the airport is quite obviously worth it despite the campaign of lies that started as soon as there was any chance of it getting the go-ahead.
Changing mode of transport is one of the biggest hindrances to getting people to use public transport. Linking up the rail networks in Dublin properly will have a huge impact on what can be run on them as well as the psychological improvement for people not having to get a feeder bus to a tram/train.

KyussBishop · 05-03-2014 10:47PM

We're going to need to build underground railways sometime as the city grows, so not much to lose by just getting it over with really - with all the idle unemployed labour, and lack of demand on construction resources (compared to times of full employment - theoretically dampening the price), it's the perfect time really.

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 10:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But not in other cities?

Well done you.

Reducing traffic numbers is about the only way to deal with congestion.

How do you remove cars? Tax them? I'd rather use a carrot than a stick tbh.
There's a limit as to the effect buses can have and Dublin isn't far off that limit despite recent cut-backs.

Yet CBA's showed it was worth it. Metro North with 20 million people a year passing through the airport is quite obviously worth it despite the campaign of lies that started as soon as there was any chance of it getting the go-ahead.
Changing mode of transport is one of the biggest hindrances to getting people to use public transport. Linking up the rail networks in Dublin properly will have a huge impact on what can be run on them as well as the psychological improvement for people not having to get a feeder bus to a tram/train.

So if they love the car so much your metro wont get them out of them either.

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 10:50PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

We're going to need to build underground railways sometime as the city grows, so not much to lose by just getting it over with really - with all the idle unemployed labour, and lack of demand on construction resources (compared to times of full employment - theoretically dampening the price), it's the perfect time really.

How many unemployed TBM drivers are there in Ireland ? And people that know how to support them run them maintain them.

05-03-2014 10:51PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So if they love the car so much your metro wont get them out of them either.

So the only options in your world involve use of a car at some point in the journey?

Cienciano · 05-03-2014 10:52PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So if they love the car so much your metro wont get them out of them either.

Well, I drive in to work and a bus definitely wouldn't convince me. A metro would.
Dublin city lacks open space, if you had room you could widen footpaths and pedestrianised streets rather than fill them with more buses. Use buses for orbital routes and underground for getting into city centre.

05-03-2014 10:53PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How many unemployed TBM drivers are there in Ireland ? And people that know how to support them run them maintain them.

I think he wants the tunnel dug the old fashioned way. :pac:

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 10:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So the only options in your world involve use of a car at some point in the journey?

I'm Confused your the one saying changing mode of transport is the problem. I was simply pointing out that if that is true then a Metro will not get people out of their cars either. Or will everyone have a underground station next to their house ?

KyussBishop · 05-03-2014 10:56PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How many unemployed TBM drivers are there in Ireland ? And people that know how to support them run them maintain them.

Well they're finding a crapload of Irish workers to build a tunnel in the UK right now, guess it's not that hard:
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-workers-at-center-of-massive-tunneling-project-in-london-220997341-237772131.html

Uriel. · 05-03-2014 10:57PM

Abolish motor tax, and replace with additional tax on petrol diesel etc.

Introduce a day time congestion charge in the city. Improve outer routes. , build a fast reliable running transport system that doesn't end at 11.30. Widen city footpaths police and enforce Road traffic legislation in Greater degrees

carlmango11 · 05-03-2014 10:57PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They can afford to build them run them and maintain them... Plenty of city's around the world using the bus model like trains.

We can easily afford to maintain it. In fact, if it's anything like Luas, which I'd imagine it would be, it will make a profit. It's the up-front capital we cut back on.

Do you think the Luas was a waste of money? Do you think we don't need it? That we can't afford to maintain it?

What about the DART? Waste of money? Should have just run bus after bus along the coast. I'm sure the packed trains of people would have no problem hopping on a bus, getting stuck at lights, stopping every 100 metres. No way they'd go back to cars.

I'm sure there were people like you complaining about the construction of our the Luas and DART. Thankfully they didn't prevail and were quickly proved wrong once the projects were shown to be successful. And hopefully the same will happen with the naysayers to Metro North and DART Underground.

Zonda999 · 05-03-2014 10:57PM

A few points of note regarding Ireland and its infrastructure.

Ireland effectively did not have a motorway network before the Celtic Tiger. We now have a pretty decent motorway network with all "cities" linked to Dublin. The next motorways I would build would be completing the connection between Limerick ans Galway, and secondary to that, Cork to Limerick

A train linking Dublin City Centre to the airport would likely be slower than the current bus that uses the port tunnel. The usual point stated here is that effectively every other capital city in Europe is, so when tourists come ehere they "expect" a rail link and people fear that we'd be looked down on for that or something. If whatever is done about this acts a proper link between North county Dublin and the city centre therefore increasing economic potential of that area, I think a rail link would be a fairly prudent idea. Cost of this is 600€ million apparently, probably way more before something of this scale is completed. In fairness Dublins transport infrastructure deserves huge investment. As a Cork man, I'll gladly admit that!

Ireland's rail system is subsidized to the tune of €400 million a year by the tax payer. Not one part of Irish rails current operations makes a profit. The train from Dublin to Cork is scarcely quicker than the very cheap and efficient direct bus connections. Efforts should be put into this to make this link quicker (Under two hours) so the train has some competitive advantage

Ireland has too many airports, Ireland currently has the scope for two airports, Dublin obviously and one airport in the South West/Mid West region. There are currently three in this region, each impeding development of the others. This is a ludicrous situation but is not going to change soon

Ireland's Government apparently invests less in its country than any of its European counterparts.

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 10:57PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Well, I drive in to work and a bus definitely wouldn't convince me. A metro would.
Dublin city lacks open space, if you had room you could widen footpaths and pedestrianised streets rather than fill them with more buses. Use buses for orbital routes and underground for getting into city centre.

So if you would drive to a metro station and park your car why not just drive to a luas station or a train station that we already have ?

05-03-2014 11:01PM

The real problem is the fact that people live in different places many of them far away from where they work, their places of work are dispersed as well, so any transport system is severely disadvantaged by having to have multiple routes that would would inefficiently criss cross the city and satisfy only a few commuters.

What it really needs is for people to work locally!

EyeSight · 05-03-2014 11:01PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So if you would drive to a metro station and park your car why not just drive to a luas station or a train station that we already have ?

maybe a luas or train don't go by his work place. Undergrounds generally have many connecting trains and routes

I would rather they upgrading the awful DART and bus service in dublin and the awful bus service i assume other counties get. In Dublin it's quite crowded, unreliable and finishes too early

05-03-2014 11:04PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm Confused your the one saying changing mode of transport is the problem. I was simply pointing out that if that is true then a Metro will not get people out of their cars either. Or will everyone have a underground station next to their house ?

Most people see rail as rail. Changing from Luas to train in a place designed for it is different to getting a bus to outside a railway station.

theKillerBite · 05-03-2014 11:06PM

EyeSight wrote: »

maybe a luas or train don't go by his work place. Undergrounds generally have many connecting trains and routes

I would rather they upgrading the awful DART and bus service in dublin and the awful bus service i assume other counties get. In Dublin it's quite crowded, unreliable and finishes too early

They are planning to "build" two BRT bus lines in Dublin at a cost of €650m.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/projects-schemes/transport-projects/bus-rapid-transit-brt/

carlmango11 · 05-03-2014 11:08PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So if you would drive to a metro station and park your car why not just drive to a luas station or a train station that we already have ?

What.

Are you under the impression the Metro would run along the same route as a Luas line!?

Zonda999 wrote: »

A train linking Dublin City Centre to the airport would likely be slower than the current bus that uses the port tunnel. The usual point stated here is that effectively every other capital city in Europe is, so when tourists come ehere they "expect" a rail link and people fear that we'd be looked down on for that or something. If whatever is done about this acts a proper link between North county Dublin and the city centre therefore increasing economic potential of that area, I think a rail link would be a fairly prudent idea. Cost of this is 600€ million apparently, probably way more before something of this scale is completed.

The Metro isn't being built solely as a link to the airport... It passes all the way through North Dublin. Colleges, hospitals, schools, heavily populated residential areas. It has nothing got to do with tourists "expecting" a rail link when they're on holidays...

If the €600 million thing is a reference to a spur from the DART to the airport then that's not possible. The reason we have issues with the DART at the moment is due to the massive bottleneck at Connolly Station, which is exactly why we need DART Underground. A DART link to the airport isn't possible with current capacity.

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2014 11:09PM

carlmango11 wrote: »

We can easily afford to maintain it. In fact, if it's anything like Luas, which I'd imagine it would be, it will make a profit. It's the up-front capital we cut back on.

Do you think the Luas was a waste of money? Do you think we don't need it? That we can't afford to maintain it?

What about the DART? Waste of money? Should have just run bus after bus along the coast. I'm sure the packed trains of people would have no problem hopping on a bus, getting stuck at lights, stopping every 100 metres. No way they'd go back to cars.

I'm sure there were people like you complaining about the construction of our the Luas and DART. Thankfully they didn't prevail and were quickly proved wrong once the projects were shown to be successful. And hopefully the same will happen with the naysayers to Metro North and DART Underground.

Why am I asking people to use it more if I hate it so much ...

They seem happy enough to do the same in their cars at the moment.

People like me ? I'm guessing I must be anti pylon too. (I'm not) I’m anti splashing cash when there are clearly other options.

carlmango11 · 05-03-2014 11:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The real problem is the fact that people live in different places many of them far away from where they work, their places of work are dispersed as well, so any transport system is severely disadvantaged by having to have multiple routes that would would inefficiently criss cross the city and satisfy only a few commuters.

What it really needs is for people to work locally!

Or to build a transport network where switching between modes is quick and painless. Something Dublin, with it's cocktail of different operators and tickets hasn't quite figured out yet.

Sunshine87 · 05-03-2014 11:14PM

KevinEldon wrote: »

Because some country folk don't like Dublin getting something badly needed and useful like the Metro or Dart Underground would be,as has been displayed already in this thread by a few posters.Never mind that it would boost the economy by making Dublin (where all the tax revenue that pays for rural services is generated) a far more attractive and productive place for businesses and tourist alike.

lol. Dublin is a small city from what i remember. it could probably operate on buses alone.

Peregrine · 05-03-2014 11:15PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Dublin has less people than Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

It also has 50 miles of light rail and 91 train stations.

What's your point?

Can We Not Build Infrastructure Rather than Houses?

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