Can We Not Build Infrastructure Rather than Houses?

ClovenHoof

Why can't the Government just not build the underground network for Dublin and finish off the needed infrastructure around the country? Borrow the money - create thousands of jobs? Set the country up for the future?

How is this any less simplistic than waiting for house prices to come back or new car sales to show 'promising upswings"?

Please someone explain to me why we can't do this?

Hande hoche!

Would negatively influence the balance of trade. Materials needed would have to be imported.

darkpagandeath

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Why can't the Government just not build the underground network for Dublin and finish off the needed infrastructure around the country? Borrow the money - create thousands of jobs? Set the country up for the future?

How is this any less simplistic than waiting for house prices to come back or new car sales?

Please someone explain to me why we can't do this?

You mean the metro ? because we need a metro with having to move our millions of daily commuters in Dublin....:rolleyes:

ClovenHoof

The DART underground is already 30 years overdue. Was suppose to be in service by early 80s. Was needed back then. Dublin is much bigger now.

Sir Arthur Daley

They cant even fill the potholes not to mind anything else.

danniemcq

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The DART underground is already 30 years overdue. Was suppose to be in service by early 80s. Was needed back then. Dublin is much bigger now.

Underground ... UNDERGROUND

some of us would be happy enough with a train that goes above the ground

Why conflate government spending on infrastructure with private spending (that's barely existed for 7 years) on dwellings?

DannieHasABrazilian

DannieHasABrazilian wrote: »

Underground ... UNDERGROUND

some of us would be happy enough with a train that goes above the ground

Yeah a tram in every county. One each. It's the only fair way.

darkpagandeath

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The DART underground is already 30 years overdue. Was suppose to be in service by early 80s. Was needed back then. Dublin is much bigger now.

Yeah is odd how the train and bus company's are not making profits ... with all these millions of customers who are unable to travel on these services due to over crowding......

ClovenHoof

DannieHasABrazilian wrote: »

Underground ... UNDERGROUND

some of us would be happy enough with a train that goes above the ground

Trains would be pointless in Donegal except for farmers driving tractors into them. Modern rail transport only works for sizeable urban areas.

If a train line was built to Donegal it would be a Fr Ted on steroids episode of Gombeen Armageddon proportions. Will never happen and Ireland would deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth if it was ever proposed seriously.

kneemos

Are they still borrowing two billion a week or whatever it is?
That might be the reason.

KyussBishop

Yes OP, that's pretty much the way for us to achieve proper economic recovery, re-employ people into working on widescale public works projects - same as what was done during the New Deal in the US, effectively.

ClovenHoof

Maybe it is a case of civil servant pensions first, economic long term survival nah?

KyussBishop

It's a problem with economic theory: The dominant economic/political-economic views, are neoliberalism and neoclassical economics - things most people have never heard of, but which are the dominant forms of thought when it comes to economics.

Problem is: Neither forms of thought, have anything to do with how economies work in reality. Economics is (in my own opinion) deliberately corrupted, with these false views, to make it easy for those who are already powerful and wealthy, to hold onto their power and pillage entire economies/countries.

Discussing this stuff though, is a topic that most people seem to find boring as fúck - probably because it leads to pretty acrimonious debates.

KevinEldon

Because some country folk don't like Dublin getting something badly needed and useful like the Metro or Dart Underground would be,as has been displayed already in this thread by a few posters.Never mind that it would boost the economy by making Dublin (where all the tax revenue that pays for rural services is generated) a far more attractive and productive place for businesses and tourist alike.

MS.ing

DannieHasABrazilian wrote: »

Underground ... UNDERGROUND

some of us would be happy enough with a train that goes above the ground

we already have one of those

http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/timetable-pdfs

Lord Trollington

Schools , hospitals and an alternative source of power generation other than coal are far more important than an underground in Dublin in my opinion.

darkpagandeath

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Dublin has less people than Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

theKillerBite

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Schools , hospitals and an alternative source of power generation other than coal are far more important than an underground in Dublin in my opinion.

Coal is cheap fuel. What we need to do is kick out the eco-terrorists who have imposed carbon taxes, carbon levies and PSO surcharges on our utility bills thus increasing the price of everything and making the country less competitive and increasing unemployment.

c_man

How about a space elevator?

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Ireland has the same population as what Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

Have and need are 2 different things.


Dublin is in the top 10 most congested cities in Europe and is worse than London in case anyone was wondering.

theKillerBite

Deleted User wrote: »

Have and need are 2 different things.


Dublin is in the top 10 most congested cities in Europe and is worse than London in case anyone was wondering.

Well London was named the 2nd worst in Europe, and Brussels is the worst so...

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2014/3/5/london-is-second-most-congested-city-in-europe/49795/

theKillerBite

theKillerBite wrote: »

Well London was named the 2nd worst in Europe, and Brussels is the worst so...

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2014/3/5/london-is-second-most-congested-city-in-europe/49795/

And here's data analysed another way: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/picturegalleries/9406185/Top-10-most-congested-cities-in-Europe.html?frame=2279188 Your link shows time wasted total rather than as a proportion of total travel time, which I think is more accurate as a measure of congestion.

Borderfox

Monorail Monorail Monorail Monorail

WallyGUFC

KevinEldon wrote: »

Because some country folk don't like Dublin getting something badly needed and useful like the Metro or Dart Underground would be,as has been displayed already in this thread by a few posters.Never mind that it would boost the economy by making Dublin (where all the tax revenue that pays for rural services is generated) a far more attractive and productive place for businesses and tourist alike.

I'm pretty sure those of us outside Dublin pay tax too ya know...

ClovenHoof

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Why can't the Government just not build the underground network for Dublin and finish off the needed infrastructure around the country? Borrow the money - create thousands of jobs? Set the country up for the future?

How is this any less simplistic than waiting for house prices to come back or new car sales to show 'promising upswings"?

Please someone explain to me why we can't do this?

We could really do with a bit of joined up thinking, build a decent transport system and urban housing that is family friendly and at a reasonable rent in and around Dublin city centre, there is plenty of derelict buildings that need knocking in prime locations for housing. There are many examples of family friendly flats around Europe to look at.

For Forks Sake

Borderfox wrote: »

Monorail Monorail Monorail Monorail

Mono....oh.

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

Have and need are 2 different things.


Dublin is in the top 10 most congested cities in Europe and is worse than London in case anyone was wondering.

A lot of that is delivery's/haulage goods and so on. There is no issue getting into Dublin on the bus or train people choose to go in in cars. If you made everyone get the train/luas/bus into town i doubt there would be any need for a metro so why is it needed ? seems it’s a lot of x Eu capital has this why don't we thinking weather it’s actually feasible or needed.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Have and need are 2 different things.


Dublin is in the top 10 most congested cities in Europe and is worse than London in case anyone was wondering.

Congested due to bad decisions made in the past, make the country car dependent and then skimp on roads and then only build them too late. Insufficient rapid transit systems mean that many just stay in their cars. In London the majority of commuters wouldn't even dare to bring the car!

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

A lot of that is delivery's/haulage goods and so on. There is no issue getting into Dublin on the bus or train people choose to go in in cars. If you made everyone get the train/luas/bus into town i doubt there would be any need for a metro so why is it needed ? seems it’s a lot of x Eu capital has this why don't we thinking weather it’s actually feasible or needed.

There is an issue for most as they live in places that don't have public transport nearby, so they need a car to do the first few miles, once in the cat they might as well stay in it the whole journey.

theKillerBite

darkpagandeath wrote: »

A lot of that is delivery's/haulage goods and so on. There is no issue getting into Dublin on the bus or train people choose to go in in cars. If you made everyone get the train/luas/bus into town i doubt there would be any need for a metro so why is it needed ? seems it’s a lot of x Eu capital has this why don't we thinking weather it’s actually feasible or needed.

The Dart Underground was projected to cost €4billion. It was never going to be built. Maybe an option option would be charge a levy on car parking provided by employers within the city's canals. Similar to what was recently introduced in Nottingham.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

A lot of that is delivery's/haulage goods and so on.

Where?

There is no issue getting into Dublin on the bus or train people choose to go in in cars.

There are plenty of issues.

If you made everyone get the train/luas/bus into town i doubt there would be any need for a metro so why is it needed ?

What? If everyone was forced to do X there'd be no need for Y? What kind of argument is that?

seems it’s a lot of x Eu capital has this why don't we thinking weather it’s actually feasible or needed.

It's a lot of what? Plenty has been done to see how feasible the plans were and most were feasible. Then lies were used to campaign against them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Congested due to bad decisions made in the past, make the country car dependent and then skimp on roads and then only build them too late. Insufficient rapid transit systems mean that many just stay in their cars. In London the majority of commuters wouldn't even dare to bring the car!

Reasons are fairly irrelevant unless we're to consider a major road building programme through the city. The lack of integration (spatially and with ticketing is a massive issue as well as capacity. But nah, let's spend over €100 million to open a rail line in the west with a dozen people using it.

WoollyRedHat

I personally think the lads should build a bridge passing through Iceland, Greenland and then towards North America and in the opposite direction a bridge connection to the U.K and one going to Spain from Munster. That'll keep em busy and we can all go and cheer them on. The lads to finish their bridge first get a free pint each. Now that might seem silly, considering it's a lot further to N. America than Spain or the U.K, but it will give the North American Bridgers that extra push.

Borderfox

Borderfox wrote: »

Monorail Monorail Monorail Monorail

4 monorails side by side, isn't that a standard twin track!

Cienciano

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Dublin has less people than Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

And Bochum has a population of 350,000 and has an underground rail system. Lots of small cities have them. Lille has one. Re
Jakarta has a population of 10m and has no metro. So the point about manchester is meaningless.

carlmango11

kneemos wrote: »

Are they still borrowing two billion a week or whatever it is?
That might be the reason.

lol

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean the metro ? because we need a metro with having to move our millions of daily commuters in Dublin....:rolleyes:

Yes, we do need Metro North and DART Underground. It's incredibly obvious actually. For a city of its size Dublin is extremely lacking in public transport.

The amount of ignorance on this thread is surprising.

I would imagine the people who are saying that we "don't need it" haven't spent much time commuting in Dublin.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sorry but what kind of stuff are people smoking when they say Dublin needs a Metro system... Dublin has less people than Manchester and that city does not have a Metro. I thought the Celtic tiger madness thinking had gone ?

Lyon and Glasgow are two cities off the top of my head, both smaller or similar size to Dublin with underground systems

darkpagandeath

Where?

There are a few shops in Dublin city maybe they need goods to be delivered.

There are plenty of issues.

I accept some places are hard to get from but a lot of people have access to parking at the luas.

What? If everyone was forced to do X there'd be no need for Y? What kind of argument is that?

same logic as saying lots of congestion lets build a Metro and not deal with the congestion in other ways.

It's a lot of what? Plenty has been done to see how feasible the plans were and most were feasible. Then lies were used to campaign against them.

Removing cars and supplying more bus routes, And buses would be infinitely cheaper than building a metro. And once there was a metro maintained is very pricy also.

Reasons are fairly irrelevant unless we're to consider a major road building programme through the city. The lack of integration (spatially and with ticketing is a massive issue as well as capacity. But nah, let's spend over €100 million to open a rail line in the west with a dozen people using it.

Yeah so let just speed billions on something else that's not needed.

carlmango11

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Removing cars and supplying more bus routs, And bus’s would be infinitely cheaper than building a metro. And once there was a metro maintained is very pricy also.

With countless buses being such a perfect solution you'd wonder why almost every city in the world has turned to rail as it grew?

They're quick and cheap with no need for significant, long-term investment. A perfect Irish solution.

darkpagandeath

carlmango11 wrote: »

With countless buses being such a perfect solution you'd wonder why almost every city in the world has turned to rail as it grew?

They're quick and cheap with no need for significant, long-term investment. A perfect Irish solution.

They can afford to build them run them and maintain them... Plenty of city's around the world using the bus model like trains.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There are a few shops in Dublin city maybe they need goods to be delivered.

But not in other cities?

I accept some places are hard to get from but a lot of people have access to parking at the luas.

Well done you.

same logic as saying lots of congestion lets build a Metro and not deal with the congestion in other ways.

Reducing traffic numbers is about the only way to deal with congestion.

Removing cars and supplying more bus routs, And bus’s would be infinitely cheaper than building a metro. And once there was a metro maintained is very pricy also.

How do you remove cars? Tax them? I'd rather use a carrot than a stick tbh.
There's a limit as to the effect buses can have and Dublin isn't far off that limit despite recent cut-backs.

Yeah so let just speed billions on something else that's not needed.

Yet CBA's showed it was worth it. Metro North with 20 million people a year passing through the airport is quite obviously worth it despite the campaign of lies that started as soon as there was any chance of it getting the go-ahead.
Changing mode of transport is one of the biggest hindrances to getting people to use public transport. Linking up the rail networks in Dublin properly will have a huge impact on what can be run on them as well as the psychological improvement for people not having to get a feeder bus to a tram/train.

KyussBishop

We're going to need to build underground railways sometime as the city grows, so not much to lose by just getting it over with really - with all the idle unemployed labour, and lack of demand on construction resources (compared to times of full employment - theoretically dampening the price), it's the perfect time really.

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

But not in other cities?


Well done you.

Reducing traffic numbers is about the only way to deal with congestion.


How do you remove cars? Tax them? I'd rather use a carrot than a stick tbh.
There's a limit as to the effect buses can have and Dublin isn't far off that limit despite recent cut-backs.


Yet CBA's showed it was worth it. Metro North with 20 million people a year passing through the airport is quite obviously worth it despite the campaign of lies that started as soon as there was any chance of it getting the go-ahead.
Changing mode of transport is one of the biggest hindrances to getting people to use public transport. Linking up the rail networks in Dublin properly will have a huge impact on what can be run on them as well as the psychological improvement for people not having to get a feeder bus to a tram/train.

So if they love the car so much your metro wont get them out of them either.

darkpagandeath

KyussBishop wrote: »

We're going to need to build underground railways sometime as the city grows, so not much to lose by just getting it over with really - with all the idle unemployed labour, and lack of demand on construction resources (compared to times of full employment - theoretically dampening the price), it's the perfect time really.

How many unemployed TBM drivers are there in Ireland ? And people that know how to support them run them maintain them.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So if they love the car so much your metro wont get them out of them either.

So the only options in your world involve use of a car at some point in the journey?

Cienciano

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So if they love the car so much your metro wont get them out of them either.

Well, I drive in to work and a bus definitely wouldn't convince me. A metro would.
Dublin city lacks open space, if you had room you could widen footpaths and pedestrianised streets rather than fill them with more buses. Use buses for orbital routes and underground for getting into city centre.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How many unemployed TBM drivers are there in Ireland ? And people that know how to support them run them maintain them.

I think he wants the tunnel dug the old fashioned way. :pac:

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

So the only options in your world involve use of a car at some point in the journey?

I'm Confused your the one saying changing mode of transport is the problem. I was simply pointing out that if that is true then a Metro will not get people out of their cars either. Or will everyone have a underground station next to their house ?

KyussBishop

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How many unemployed TBM drivers are there in Ireland ? And people that know how to support them run them maintain them.

Well they're finding a crapload of Irish workers to build a tunnel in the UK right now, guess it's not that hard:
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-workers-at-center-of-massive-tunneling-project-in-london-220997341-237772131.html

Uriel.

Abolish motor tax, and replace with additional tax on petrol diesel etc.

Introduce a day time congestion charge in the city. Improve outer routes. , build a fast reliable running transport system that doesn't end at 11.30. Widen city footpaths police and enforce Road traffic legislation in Greater degrees

carlmango11

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They can afford to build them run them and maintain them... Plenty of city's around the world using the bus model like trains.

We can easily afford to maintain it. In fact, if it's anything like Luas, which I'd imagine it would be, it will make a profit. It's the up-front capital we cut back on.

Do you think the Luas was a waste of money? Do you think we don't need it? That we can't afford to maintain it?

What about the DART? Waste of money? Should have just run bus after bus along the coast. I'm sure the packed trains of people would have no problem hopping on a bus, getting stuck at lights, stopping every 100 metres. No way they'd go back to cars.

I'm sure there were people like you complaining about the construction of our the Luas and DART. Thankfully they didn't prevail and were quickly proved wrong once the projects were shown to be successful. And hopefully the same will happen with the naysayers to Metro North and DART Underground.

Zonda999

A few points of note regarding Ireland and its infrastructure.

Ireland effectively did not have a motorway network before the Celtic Tiger. We now have a pretty decent motorway network with all "cities" linked to Dublin. The next motorways I would build would be completing the connection between Limerick ans Galway, and secondary to that, Cork to Limerick

A train linking Dublin City Centre to the airport would likely be slower than the current bus that uses the port tunnel. The usual point stated here is that effectively every other capital city in Europe is, so when tourists come ehere they "expect" a rail link and people fear that we'd be looked down on for that or something. If whatever is done about this acts a proper link between North county Dublin and the city centre therefore increasing economic potential of that area, I think a rail link would be a fairly prudent idea. Cost of this is 600€ million apparently, probably way more before something of this scale is completed. In fairness Dublins transport infrastructure deserves huge investment. As a Cork man, I'll gladly admit that!

Ireland's rail system is subsidized to the tune of €400 million a year by the tax payer. Not one part of Irish rails current operations makes a profit. The train from Dublin to Cork is scarcely quicker than the very cheap and efficient direct bus connections. Efforts should be put into this to make this link quicker (Under two hours) so the train has some competitive advantage

Ireland has too many airports, Ireland currently has the scope for two airports, Dublin obviously and one airport in the South West/Mid West region. There are currently three in this region, each impeding development of the others. This is a ludicrous situation but is not going to change soon

Ireland's Government apparently invests less in its country than any of its European counterparts.