A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

endakenny · 04-03-2014 06:50PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Only for Assistant Principal posts and not posts of responsibility.

It's better than nothing.

marienbad · 04-03-2014 06:50PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Without wishing to derail this thread. . . From the OECD publication "Education at a Glance".

Thanks -impressive.

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 06:54PM

endakenny wrote: »

It's better than nothing.

It is nothing.

It is reaffirming existing cuts.

implausible · 04-03-2014 07:13PM

endakenny wrote: »

It's better than nothing.

It's not. The moratorium lift is only based on numbers in a school, not the duties that need to be filled. In my school, we have had a B post holder move school and one promoted to deputy and they have not been replaced, we have two A post holders who are both yearheads out sick, they are in charge of the school plan and pastoral care and they will not be replaced. That is a huge amount of outside classroom work that is needed for the school to function.

byhookorbycrook · 04-03-2014 07:48PM

Not for most posts in primary, anyhow.

endakenny · 04-03-2014 07:55PM

implausible wrote: »

It's not. The moratorium lift is only based on numbers in a school, not the duties that need to be filled. In my school, we have had a B post holder move school and one promoted to deputy and they have not been replaced, we have two A post holders who are both yearheads out sick, they are in charge of the school plan and pastoral care and they will not be replaced. That is a huge amount of outside classroom work that is needed for the school to function.

Presumably, the tasks that are carried out by the year heads who are on sick leave are carried out by the principal and/or deputy principal. As for pastoral care, the guidance counsellor can take care of that (and I'm aware that the special allocation of guidance counsellors was abolished but it doesn't mean that the school is without a counsellor; it just means that the counsellor has to take more classes).

implausible · 04-03-2014 08:01PM

endakenny wrote: »

As for pastoral care, the guidance counsellor can take care of that (and I'm aware that the special allocation of guidance counsellors was abolished but it doesn't mean that the school is without a counsellor; it just means that the counsellor has to take more classes).

Please tell me you're joking. We have a pastoral care team, the guidance counsellor is only one part of that team, dealing with referrals from form teachers, yearheads, the HSCL teacher etc, that's without mentioning emergencies and oh, yeah, actually getting time to teach careers. To suggest that the guidance counsellor should 'take care of' pastoral care shows a breath-taking ignorance of how schools run.

endakenny · 04-03-2014 08:06PM

implausible wrote: »

Please tell me you're joking. We have a pastoral care team, the guidance counsellor is only one part of that team, dealing with referrals from form teachers, yearheads, the HSCL teacher etc, that's without mentioning emergencies and oh, yeah, actually getting time to teach careers. To suggest that the guidance counsellor should 'take care of' pastoral care shows a breath-taking ignorance of how schools run.

Then the chaplain can help.

implausible · 04-03-2014 08:07PM

endakenny wrote: »

Presumably, the tasks that are carried out by the year heads who are on sick leave are carried out by the principal and/or deputy principal.

The principal and DP cannot take on all of those duties, they would have no time for anything else, like running the school. Besides, one or both are often absent and one thing that teenagers need is consistency. Some duties, like the school plan, are being put "on hold", others divvied up and put onto teachers who are already overstretched and the rest being half-done when someone in management gets the time.

implausible · 04-03-2014 08:12PM

endakenny wrote: »

Then the chaplain can help.

The chaplain? What's that? We don't have one! Seriously, have you no idea of how much goes on with teenagers in schools? Teachers deal with teenagers who are victims of bullying, violence, sexual abuse, marital breakdown, some coming from dysfunctional families where addiction is present. That's besides bereavement, exam anxiety, relationship problems, depression and a thousand and one other more typical teenage dramas. It's beyond me how the guidance counsellor copes with just dealing with that lot, never mind the compulsory form-filling, teaching careers and dealing all the form-filling and deadlines that goes with that side of the job.

Dave0301 · 04-03-2014 08:13PM

endakenny wrote: »

Then the chaplain can help.

Really?

If you think that is the answer, then you really are misinformed about the workings of a modern school.

endakenny · 04-03-2014 08:16PM

implausible wrote: »

The chaplain? What's that? We don't have one! Seriously, have you no idea of how much goes on with teenagers in schools? Teachers deal with teenagers who are victims of bullying, violence, sexual abuse, marital breakdown, some coming from dysfunctional families where addiction is present. That's besides bereavement, exam anxiety, relationship problems, depression and a thousand and one other more typical teenage dramas. It's beyond me how the guidance counsellor copes with just dealing with that lot, never mind the compulsory form-filling, teaching careers and dealing all the form-filling and deadlines that goes with that side of the job.

The investigation of sexual abuse is a matter for the Gardaí, not the teaching profession. Furthermore, mental health issues should be referred to GPs and the HSE.

implausible · 04-03-2014 08:25PM

endakenny wrote: »

The investigation of sexual abuse is a matter for the Gardaí, not the teaching profession. Furthermore, mental health issues should be referred to GPs and the HSE.

Oh my God, who on earth do you think is often the first told about these things? Who do think is left picking up the pieces? The Gardaí won't provide counselling in a familiar environment, the HSE can't get a teenage girl, who has been to court to send her father down for abusing her, to go to class and reintegrate into school and normal life.

We are the ones who spot there's an issue, who find out what's going on, who liaise with outside bodies and who have to deal with what happens afterwards. The school is the place where the student goes every day, where s/he feels safe, and in my school where we have a lot of what you may call 'dysfunctional families' school is the first and only place where problems are noticed.

Teachers don't just teach a,b,c and 1,2,3.

rainbowtrout · 04-03-2014 08:27PM

endakenny wrote: »

The investigation of sexual abuse is a matter for the Gardaí, not the teaching profession. Furthermore, mental health issues should be referred to GPs and the HSE.

The fallout still comes back to the school on a day to day basis: how the student is coping in the classroom, interacting with teachers, other students, if they are able to concentrate in class. A student with those difficulties could be looking for the guidance counsellor/chaplain a couple of times a week if things are rough for them.

Also if staff in a school raise concerns about a student from unusual behaviour in the classroom, it might start with getting the chaplain/counsellor to talk to the student. Management might get involved, then they will call in the parents. Some parents are co-operative, some are not. Not everything can be solved in one meeting. If there are referrals to outside bodies, there will be follow up meetings in the school, to update on progress from those assessments and how the school can help with the issue. Not everything is just passed to outsiders and forgotten about. It can't be.

grind gremlin · 04-03-2014 08:33PM

endakenny wrote: »

The investigation of sexual abuse is a matter for the Gardaí, not the teaching profession. Furthermore, mental health issues should be referred to GPs and the HSE.

I recently referred a student to the HSE for an assessment. After 3 months waiting for a response, we were informed the child would be put on a waiting list to be seen in 18 - 24 months. Who deals with the relevant issues in the interim???

The entire class suffers as a result of such delays, not to mention the difficulties the child in question encounters.

Red Nissan · 04-03-2014 08:39PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

The sooner the government stands up to the teachers and their very influential unions the better for the whole education system in Ireland.

Agree, but maybe not as bluntly, seemingly teachers are the strife of life, some of the 1916 leaders were teachers, and Fianna Fail's leader and indeed the Taoiseach are teachers ~ and we are paying fillin teachers apparently as we hold teaching jobs open for them anytime they want to return.

Don't look to the government for help on this one.

ytareh · 04-03-2014 08:40PM

The trolls are out in force tonight.

"teachers and their very influential unions"

Gas!

poolsandles · 04-03-2014 09:01PM

ytareh wrote: »

The trolls are out in force tonight.

"teachers and their very influential unions"

Gas!

I agree. Anyone within teaching knows that unions are polls apart from teachers in the classrooms and as for teachers who came into the profession post 2010, they don't want to even hear the word union never mind joining it!

ledgebag1 · 04-03-2014 09:14PM

I asked the below question earlier and I know there was a lot of back and forth in the press but maybe one if the teachers who is a union member could answer?

"In response to the OP, what have the teachers unions done to address all the points you have made? If all teachers are unhappy about these conditions then why have they not taken action? I am in the process of becoming a secondary school teacher so i am not attacking you or your points but i am curious to know how all these changes came into effect without consultation or consent from teachers. Could you explain whatctook place or the process that made these changes come into effect"

I am becoming a teacher and I am curious as to the environment/ atmosphere may lay ahead in regards to unions

Boskowski · 04-03-2014 09:23PM

Sorry if I'm completely off the mark but I have teachers in the family and I have heard the opinion that young teachers have it so bad because the older teachers/unions basically sacrificed them so that they can hold on to their own pay/perks.

Is there anything in that?

UpTheSash · 04-03-2014 09:24PM

Think this data gives a better overall picture in relation to hours worked!

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 09:30PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

Think this data gives a better overall picture in relation to hours worked!

That still shows that teachers in Ireland work more classroom hours than teachers in most other OECD countries

Unlike Education ministeries in other countries the DES do not keep record of hours worked outside the classroom - the 88 Croke Park and Haddington Road hours are not included in those figures for instance.

But you're not here to discuss the facts. . . we accept that.

chippers · 04-03-2014 09:40PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

Think this data gives a better overall picture in relation to hours worked!

I will give you a real example of another European country for reference. I work in the secondary public school system in Spain. The day is a lot shorter here. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday the school day is from 8:30am to 3:30pm. Thursday and Friday school finishes at 2:30pm. There is absolutely no expectation to do any after school activities and the teachers here in general do not. Once the academic day finishes that is it.

In terms of the summer holidays we finish on the last working day in June and start back on the first working day in September. So a full 2 months. For the first 10 day or so in September we have meetings and preparation time with classes starting after that.

Christmas break and easter is much the same but we do not receive the midterm breaks.There are a number of long weekends here though that break up the term somewhat.

byhookorbycrook · 04-03-2014 09:45PM

endakenny wrote: »

The investigation of sexual abuse is a matter for the Gardaí, not the teaching profession. Furthermore, mental health issues should be referred to GPs and the HSE.

As out of touch with the reality in schools as your name sake and his govt. How do you think the allegation may have come to light? Do you know anything abut the "Children First " guidelines?
HSE are so stretched that they have closed waiting lists in some areas, short of knifing half the class , a student won't get any support from the HSE until it's too late.

gammy_knees · 04-03-2014 10:02PM

Lets not give any advice about the job. I'm coming from the new "Discovery Learning" methods in vogue in teaching today(me hole). If anyone is interested go ahead, get the qualifications, get the job, yadda, yadda.. and discover for yourself.
Its the only way to learn, allegedly!!

UpTheSash · 04-03-2014 10:12PM

Oh figures and how to interpret them! The table shows that 'the working time required at school in hours' for Irish second level teachers is around 30% less than the OECD average and the number of weeks of interaction for teachers with pupils is the second lowest on the table, that I can see. (Greece seems to be the lowest). The net teaching time in hours is above the OECD average.

This would suggest that for Irish second level teachers longer hours are spent teaching in the weeks that they are in school but much less time is spent working during the school year than in other countries. Again I revert back to the point of the pupils suffering because a huge curriculum is squeezed into a short school year with tremendous pressure put on pupils. This is not in the pupils interests.

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 10:17PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

Oh figures and how to interpret them! The table shows that 'the working time required at school in hours' for Irish second level teachers is around 30% less than the OECD average and the number of weeks of interaction for teachers with pupils is the second lowest on the table, that I can see. (Greece seems to be the lowest). The net teaching time in hours is above the OECD average.

This would suggest that for Irish second level teachers longer hours are spent teaching in the weeks that they are in school but much less time is spent working during the school year than in other countries. Again I revert back to the point of the pupils suffering because a huge curriculum is squeezed into a short school year with tremendous pressure put on pupils. This is not in the pupils interests.

What part of "the DES do not keep official records on the hours worked outside the classroom whereas other countries do" . . . did you not understand?

evolving_doors · 04-03-2014 10:17PM

endakenny wrote: »

Then the chaplain can help.

Sure the maintenance guy can pitch in too!!

Or the cleaner even!!!

UpTheSash · 04-03-2014 10:34PM

Understood perfectly. "the 88 Croke Park and Haddington Road hours are not included in those figures for instance." does not go anyway to bringing the total number of hours up to anywhere near the OECD average of 'working time required at school'.

Peter Flynt · 04-03-2014 10:39PM

UpTheSash wrote: »

Understood perfectly. "the 88 Croke Park and Haddington Road hours are not included in those figures for instance." does not go anyway to bringing the total number of hours up to anywhere near the OECD average of 'working time required at school'.

No you don't understand.

The DES expect planning, preparation, assessment and evaluation for all students/classes.

Leaving aside extra curricular activity these are not included in these figures and are exclusive of the 88 hours. . . But you know that - So I'm through discussing this issue with you.

A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

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