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A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    I understand the frustrated sentiment behind this thread and the wish to warn new young teachers of the pitfalls and changes in the profession. Yes, the job has got harder, more paperwork, less time, less support, curriculum changes etc, but at the end of the day, there is no job I would rather be doing. I have only had 2/3 days in the past 15 years that have been so bad that I seriously considered quitting.

    For those of you considering it, it can be a great job, but read this thread carefully and go in with your eyes wide open.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 128 ✭✭therunaround


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    yeah luckily im in the east of the country in the commuter belt so hopefully with a rising population I might get somewhere within 25 mile. still if I work n any other public job its going to be 9-5 anyway and you still get mid term in feb mid term in oct, 2 weeks at xmas and a week in easter and at least from 1st july to 25 august that's not bad no matter what way you look at it. I could probarbly get by not too bad on a part time basis teaching for a few years as I have inherited a house and don't have a mortgage to pay, im lucky in that sense. my previous job was 8-5.30 with 2 weeks holidays and less money so im used to not much financial reward for hard work unfortunately. what about adult education are there any vacancies in that or is it worse again?

    What subjects would you have. I hope to get a new teaching job near my home farm eventually. Quiet stock, land in one block and sheds would be key though, ud want to be able to do all the jobs in about 2 hours really cos it can be hard to get out of school before 5 or 6 somedays.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Juniorhurler


    @ Dickie10

    I have a very similar situation to yourself. I have a farm with a 70 cow suckler herd. It can be done, however you need a few things going your way. My school is 4 miles from my farmyard. I have spent a lot of money upgrading the yard to save labour. I have the boss till floating about the yard. He can't run the place alone or do a lot of heavy lifting but he is invaluable to keep an eye on things when I am not there.

    Above all you need to be hyper organised in both aspects of your life. I am a Construction teacher and when I am not busy the last week of summer holidays on tge farm I take in my 6th years for a week and finish 75% of their projects to keep pressure off in the spring when I need time and can't be stuck in school outside of hours.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    admire the hope for developing student skills I'm afraid I lol-ed. Hope is great, but when you see all the missives RQ fires from high, without a notion of how it will or will not work in reality, without providing proper training for the teachers and resources for the schools,, when he cuts SNAs and resource teaching when he give sound-bites that people take as gospel, hope fades pretty quickly.
    One example was the book rental fiasco. He grandly announced that EVERY school would have a book rental scheme. However he then admitted when pressed that the DES would only help schools with no form of rental scheme at all, so schools that have struggled to make even one book out of 20 available to rent would get NOTHING. To top it all he said a rental scheme would cost €8 to €10 -just to show how totally out of touch he is. €8 wouldn't pay for the standardised tests for a primary child in a year, never mind the cost of books getting damaged/lost /outdated.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/quinn-says-new-school-book-rental-scheme-will-close-gap-1.1649362

    But hey, he got book rental "in" !??! if teachers try to protest the issue we are immediately branded "whinging teachers."

    Cynical??Moi??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Ruairi fixed the whole 'School uniform' issue as well... with surveys:pac::pac::pac::pac:

    Oh yes mustn;t forget ...the issue of Religion in schools has been sorted out too.. with surveys:pac::pac::pac::pac:

    He's on his way to Crimea now to instigate peace talks between the Russians and Ukranians. I wonder how Ruairi will sort it all out? Hey I know... lets do a survey... Job is OXO


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    vamos! wrote: »
    I am in Ireland and have been keeping a tally of my hours since Christmas. Shocking! I have worked from 7am most Saturdays, past 11pm at least 2 nights a week and the orals chaos starts for real next week. I still haven't updated the subject plans from last year, haven't resources sourced for the week after next and have no photocopying done for tomorrow morning. I have less extra-curricular than before. It is shocking the time corrections take and there is an expectation in my school that the copies are taken up every week. I can't imagine what will happen when more paperwork is forced on us. I will have to give up sleeping or take up a Red Bull habit!
    There's a solution to that: give less homework, i.e. make the pupils take more responsibility for their education.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 750 ✭✭✭playedalive


    I understand the frustrated sentiment behind this thread and the wish to warn new young teachers of the pitfalls and changes in the profession. Yes, the job has got harder, more paperwork, less time, less support, curriculum changes etc, but at the end of the day, there is no job I would rather be doing. I have only had 2/3 days in the past 15 years that have been so bad that I seriously considered quitting.

    For those of you considering it, it can be a great job, but read this thread carefully and go in with your eyes wide open.

    I am so grateful for you teachers out there putting up this thread and letting us know about the profession honestly.

    I did a languages degree in French and Spanish and have always toyed with the idea of becoming a languages teacher. I always thought it would be great to pass on my subjects to other students. But now I'm not so sure. I have been working in TEFL teaching English as a Foreign Language and my 'noble sentiment' of passing on my languages has been given a reality check. Yes, it would be nice to inspire students and help them towards their goals. But, at the same time, it can be a thankless job where your best efforts are always challenged and you'll always be at the forefront of the blame if the students refuses to learn, pay attention or do well (despite your best efforts).

    I'll definitely need to give this idea some more thought and consideration.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 334 ✭✭ledgebag1


    In response to the OP, what have the teachers unions done to address all the points you have made? If all teachers are unhappy about these conditions then why have they not taken action? I am in the process of becoming a secondary school teacher so i am not attacking you or your points but i am curious to know how all these changes came into effect without consultation or consent from teachers. Could you explain whatctook place or the process that made these changes come into effect.

    On the issue of permanency for new teachers surely the minister realises most newly qualified teachers will emigrate?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,123 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    why was all this hate and vitriol to teachers from ruari Quinn , ever since labour/ fine gael came in they have went fro teachers bald headed I cant understand it , surely they are risking turning thousands awayfrom the profession and with the population growing for younger people who will do this work , will they have a crisis of no teachers soon?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    why was all this hate and vitriol to teachers from ruari Quinn , ever since labour/ fine gael came in they have went fro teachers bald headed I cant understand it , surely they are risking turning thousands awayfrom the profession and with the population growing for younger people who will do this work , will they have a crisis of no teachers soon?

    In fairness I have yet to hear a permanent teacher leave their job in recent times and theres never been as many teachers coming out of colleges whether through universities, hibernia or england. Alot of these graduates which are abroad now are dying for a chance to get home, and with a salary and pension well above the industrial average with attractive family conditions (full maternity pay and holidays coincide with childrens) I don't see a crisis any time soon( unless you call the lack of jobs a crisis).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    donegal11 wrote: »
    In fairness I have yet to hear a permanent teacher leave their job in recent times and theres never been has many teachers coming out of colleges whether through universities, hibernia or england. Alot of these graduates which are abroad now are dying for a chance to get home, and with a salary and pension well above the industrial average with attractive family conditions (full maternity pay and holidays coincide with childrens) I don't see a crisis any time soon( unless you call the lack of jobs a crisis).

    . . Only the pay is not well above the industrial average for those commencing their career now.

    The highest salary they can earn is 53K after 25 years service.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    . . Only the pay is not well above the industrial average for those commencing their career now.

    The highest salary they can earn is 53K after 25 years service.

    What is for someone with 25 years service already done ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    . . Only the pay is not well above the industrial average for those commencing their career now.

    The highest salary they can earn is 53K after 25 years service.

    You could say that for ALL industries that new entrants are being paid below previous wage levels,and no one can look into the future and say what salaries will be.The previous FULL TIME starting salary scale of 38k was admittedly well above graduate averages but even the current rates of 31k raising to 62k (excl potential S&S, state exams and posts of responsibility payments) compares extremely well to other graduates/professions? Students will stay away from teaching due to the lack of jobs/hrs not remuneration levels.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    marienbad wrote: »
    What is for someone with 25 years service already done ?

    It'd be
    €59359 basic
    €4918 degree allowance (Honours)
    €1236 Hons H Dip
    So that's €65513

    Most teachers with that kind of service would have an A ior B post so you could add on
    A post €8520
    Or
    B post €3769

    It all sounds great but remember after €32.5k , if I remember correctly,
    A teacher pays
    PAYE @ 41%
    USC @ 7%
    PRSI @ 3.5%
    Pension @ 4.5%
    Sp & Ch @ 1.5%
    Pension levy @ 7.5%


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    donegal11 wrote: »
    You could say that for ALL industries that new entrants are being paid below previous wage levels,and no one can look into the future and say what salaries will be.

    You can in teaching. . . the salary scales are set out.
    The previous FULL TIME starting salary scale of 38k was admittedly well above graduate averages but even the current rates of 31k raising to 62k (excl potential S&S, state exams and posts of responsibility payments) compares extremely well to other graduates/professions? Students will stay away from teaching due to the lack of jobs/hrs not remuneration levels.

    There is no payment for S&S. Posts of Responsibility are being phased out so there are no new recruits there. State Exams is a different job under a different employer altogether.

    The wage is, of course, pro-rata. . .meaning a person on a particular point of the scale will only gain a percentage of that wage and, for 30% of teachers, this is not a full-time wage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    It'd be
    €59359 basic
    €4918 degree allowance (Honours)
    €1236 Hons H Dip
    So that's €65513

    Most teachers with that kind of service would have an A ior B post so you could add on
    A post €8520
    Or
    B post €3769

    It all sounds great but remember after €32.5k , if I remember correctly,
    A teacher pays
    PAYE @ 41%
    USC @ 7%
    PRSI @ 3.5%
    Pension @ 4.5%
    Sp & Ch @ 1.5%
    Pension levy @ 7.5%

    It's important to note that all workers pay those taxes as there salary increases. And of course all pension payments are tax deductible, so if your choosing to work anywhere in Ireland there irrelevant as it's the same for everyone. But it has to be said that pensions entitlements for new entrants are substantially reduced compared to existing teachers with career average rather then final salary which apparently could leave you paying more in then you can receive:eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    It'd be
    €59359 basic
    €4918 degree allowance (Honours)
    €1236 Hons H Dip
    So that's €65513

    Most teachers with that kind of service would have an A ior B post so you could add on
    A post €8520
    Or
    B post €3769

    It all sounds great but remember after €32.5k , if I remember correctly,
    A teacher pays
    PAYE @ 41%
    USC @ 7%
    PRSI @ 3.5%
    Pension @ 4.5%
    Sp & Ch @ 1.5%
    Pension levy @ 7.5%

    It is just being the poor mouth including those deductions , everyone pays them !

    That is still a fabulous package and throw in an equally great pension and you are on the pig's back.

    Perhaps it is these kind of packages that made the whole kind of thing unsustainable and made a two tier system inevitable .

    Yet another case of the older 'what we have we hold' generation making life difficult for the younger entrants perhaps ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    You can in teaching. . . the salary scales are set out.



    There is no payment for S&S. Posts of Responsibility are being phased out so there are no new recruits there. State Exams is a different job under a different employer altogether.

    The wage is, of course, pro-rata. . .meaning a person on a particular point of the scale will only gain a percentage of that wage and, for 30% of teachers, this is not a full-time wage.

    Salary Scale increments are not the same as salary increases, a teacher @ point 1 moves up the scale but the scale doesn't stay the same and needs to account for inflation and wage levels within the economy.

    S&S will be incorporate into salaries with hopefully an additional €1600 payment in 2017/18, Posts of responsibility haven't disappeared and state exams both correction and supervision are extra payments/work available to teachers and any reasonable person would include them as possible income whether it's under the badge of the des or sec

    Wage is pro-rata? Off course it is, a part time worker is not going to get the same as a full time worker in any profession.As I already said it's the lack of jobs/hours thats a crisis in the profession not the lack of teachers. Is it better to give two teachers a part time contracts rather than one full time position? and it has to be said part time teachers normally work far more then their contract with subbing hours etc(admittedly cut with HR)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,741 ✭✭✭Effects


    13 - Three months holidays?: Not anymore. An extra month has been embedded into the teaching calendar as a result of Croke Park/Haddington Road (all unpaid of course)

    Here was me thinking teachers got paid while they were off during the Summer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,123 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    anyone suggest a job id be better of in with a BA in history/ Geography, what about other public jobs, ?? any direction would be helpful im getting a sinking feeling!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭Jimmy Iovine


    Be thankful that the pay increases yearly.

    In my school, your salary is determined by the progress of your class.

    One teacher has been on the same salary for the last seven years and it probably won't increase unless she becomes a principal.

    Performance pay is not ideal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 UpTheSash


    The sooner the government lengthens the school year the better. Summer school holidays should be for a maximum of 6 weeks as they are in the majority of other European countries. The school year is far too short in this country and it is the students who suffer having to cram a large syllabus and a huge amount of work into a short school year. Not that the teachers are too worried about this.......

    What happened to standardising the school year, so that all schools take their holidays at the same time? Any school that starts back early in August is taking the days off later in the school year when it suits them.

    MOD WARNING :

    I have edited part of this post.
    While you are entitled to your opinion about teachers and the downfall of education in Ireland, teacher-bashing and sweeping generalisations about teachers will not be tolerated on this forum.
    I have removed said parts of your post.
    Do not reply to this warning on-thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Delphi91


    ...13 - Three months holidays?:... An extra month has been embedded into the teaching calendar as a result of Croke Park/Haddington Road (all unpaid of course)...

    Just curious, how do you figure an extra month?? My "back of the envelope" calculations give me 33 hours from Croke Park + (a max of) 43 hours under HRA. That gives (a max of) 76 hours. If you assume a "normal" school day of 9:00 to 3:30 i.e. 6.5 hours, then 76 hours equates to a little over 11.5 days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Delphi91 wrote: »
    Just curious, how do you figure an extra month?? My "back of the envelope" calculations give me 33 hours from Croke Park + (a max of) 43 hours under HRA. That gives (a max of) 76 hours. If you assume a "normal" school day of 9:00 to 3:30 i.e. 6.5 hours, then 76 hours equates to a little over 11.5 days.

    76 hours + 12 hours added (half-in half-out) under partnership towards 2016.

    That's 88 hours.

    The DES has a maximum commitment of 22 hours (teaching) per week. They've added an extra requirement of 88 hours or 4 weeks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    UpTheSash wrote: »
    The sooner the government lengthens the school year the better. Summer school holidays should be for a maximum of 6 weeks as they are in the majority of other European countries. The school year is far too short in this country and it is the students who suffer having to cram a large syllabus and a huge amount of work into a short school year. Not that the teachers are too worried about this.......

    What happened to standardising the school year, so that all schools take their holidays at the same time? Any school that starts back early in August is taking the days off later in the school year when it suits them.

    Also the government needs to tackle the situation of teacher accountability. There are FAR too many teachers sitting on jobs in which they have no interest. They should have to reach certain standards or leave (and I don't mean being pensioned off). There are bad teachers in all schools, everyone knows who they are - parents, other teachers and management - and nothing is done about them. Unfortunately for the good teachers it gives the whole profession a bad name, and for schools who have a number of bad teachers, the school also suffers and more importantly the pupils. At the end of the day the education system should be built around the people it is there to educate and support namely the pupils. The people who work in it have lost sight of the fact that they work in a service industry and the system is not theirs to own and manipulate. It belongs to the students and only their best interests should be served. At the moment the teachers have placed themselves at the top of the education system in this country and everything within that needs to be fixed or amended has to be for their benefit.

    The sooner the government stands up to the teachers and their very influential unions the better for the whole education system in Ireland.

    If you lengthen the school year, you have to shorten the school day. As it is, teachers give and students get a far higher amount of class contact time in Ireland than in many EU countries - a point that is rarely mentioned in the rants against the length of school holidays.

    Inform yourself before you post - we have had a standardised school year in this country for years. Schools who start earlier in August are clocking up Croke Park hours, nothing to do with the school year.

    The reason most of us are so exercised about our terms and conditions is the students! The CP hours, the paperwork, assessment of students, s/s, even talking to a student who can't access a counsellor or their yearhead who hasn't been replaced all takes from the teacher's ability to teach the class to the best of their ability. A few years ago, I would have had the time to take up student copies once a week, now with less time, more work and encroachments on my free time (which was used for this work), I can only do so every three weeks or monthly. Who is suffering there? It's not just the teacher, I can tell you.

    Accountability is all well and good, but the easiest way to do this is by results. Surely, you don't have to be a teacher to see the problem with this.

    The government have steadily battered our pay, our terms and conditions and have made the profession a part-time one for hundreds of new entrants. And you think the government haven't stood up to us?:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,438 ✭✭✭solerina


    If you lengthen the school year, you have to shorten the school day. As it is, teachers give and students get a far higher amount of class contact time in Ireland than in many EU countries - a point that is rarely mentioned in the rants against the length of school holidays.

    Inform yourself before you post - we have had a standardised school year in this country for years. Schools who start earlier in August are clocking up Croke Park hours, nothing to do with the school year.

    The reason most of us are so exercised about our terms and conditions is the students! The CP hours, the paperwork, assessment of students, s/s, even talking to a student who can't access a counsellor or their yearhead who hasn't been replaced all takes from the teacher's ability to teach the class to the best of their ability. A few years ago, I would have had the time to take up student copies once a week, now with less time, more work and encroachments on my free time (which was used for this work), I can only do so every three weeks or monthly. Who is suffering there? It's not just the teacher, I can tell you.

    Accountability is all well and good, but the easiest way to do this is by results. Surely, you don't have to be a teacher to see the problem with this.

    The government have steadily battered our pay, our terms and conditions and have made the profession a part-time one for hundreds of new entrants. And you think the government haven't stood up to us?:rolleyes:


    Excellent post, have highlighted the bits the knockers always choose to ignore !!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    solerina wrote: »
    Excellent post, have highlighted the bits the knockers always choose to ignore !!

    The amount of contact class time -Any links to substantiate that ? Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    marienbad wrote: »
    The amount of contact class time -Any links to substantiate that ? Thanks

    Without wishing to derail this thread. . . From the OECD publication "Education at a Glance".

    2b868fcf.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    You can in teaching. . . the salary scales are set out.



    There is no payment for S&S. Posts of Responsibility are being phased out so there are no new recruits there. State Exams is a different job under a different employer altogether.

    The wage is, of course, pro-rata. . .meaning a person on a particular point of the scale will only gain a percentage of that wage and, for 30% of teachers, this is not a full-time wage.

    There is a limited alleviation of the moratorium on posts of responsibility under HRA.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    endakenny wrote: »
    There is a limited alleviation of the moratorium on posts of responsibility under HRA.

    Only for Assistant Principal posts and not posts of responsibility.


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