Pylons

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 07:33PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Here we go with the "exporting wind power" speculation again.

Here we go again - read Eirgrids spec on the likes of Gridwest and it is littered with reference to wind exports as highlighted in links earlier in this thread

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 07:35PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Here we go again - read Eirgrids spec on the likes of Gridwest and it is littered with reference to wind exports as highlighted in links earlier in this thread

Read Captain Midnight's post two posts above yours.

Mountainsandh · 11-02-2014 07:38PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Were did people get this idea from anyway ? Our wind power is for meeting the EU requirements + more energy needs. Did a paper come up with this idea or is it just a rumour people choose to believe.

Have to dash so don't have time to quote, but this document for example juggles between energy production for ourselves, and the wonderful potential for exports.
http://www.eirgrid.com/media/EirGridAnnualRenewableReport2013.pdf

The Gridlink docs themselves explain that the upgrade will have to cater for "larger amounts" of energy produced from renewables while again hinting at exports throughout, as well as Irish needs.

It is not made clear anywhere that I have seen so far what proportion of the upgrade is needed to cater for the exports project, but it is implied throughout Eirgrid documentation that the Smartgrid and Gridlink projects will enable exports.

It is like there is a foggy grey area there where we know exports are on the line, that Eirgrid think it's a great idea, Rabbitte signing the agreement thingy and all, but we are not told how much exactly of an influence that export project has on the upgrade.

That's the issue.

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 07:43PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Barry O'Halloran isn't exactly an expert in that sector and his article is badly written.
Also that article does not say what you claim, you've twisted it. The 300m refers to "proposed incentives" not capital investment and also the DS3 programme.

Regarding the "scramble for wind power", how do you suggest we meet CO2 reduction targets?
Do we get rid of our heavy industry, ban cars, slash our agriculture industry or use renewables to generate electricity?

Switching from peat to gas would bring us along way down that road. Electrical equipment, cars and other technologies are getting steadily more energy efficient. US emission are coming down swiftly thanx to the shale gas revolution, in stark contrast to Germany who's emission are continuing to rise as more and more wind is added to their grid.

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 07:46PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Read Captain Midnight's post two posts above yours.

So the 2 of you are now claiming that you know more about Eirgrids plans than Eirgrid themselves??

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 07:52PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Also none of the anti-pylon protesters have explained how eirgrid can build a network for exporting vast amounts of power at a tiny fraction it would cost anyone else. Maybe that's because the network is for our own use with surplus exported at opportune times in much the same way we import/export electricity at times.

.

The initial spend is 3.5 billion Euros according to Eirgrid - and thats just for starters as there is many more pylon projects in the pipeline as exposed by the media recently. I would not call that small beans especially when these costs will ultimately get dumped onto the consumer via higher energy bills as has happened in Denmark,Germany etc.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 07:58PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

So the 2 of you are now claiming that you know more about Eirgrids plans than Eirgrid themselves??

Well you're the one speculating on the document and making assumptions, not us.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 08:01PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Switching from peat to gas would bring us along way down that road. Electrical equipment, cars and other technologies are getting steadily more energy efficient. US emission are coming down swiftly thanx to the shale gas revolution, in stark contrast to Germany who's emission are continuing to rise as more and more wind is added to their grid.

Ah the straw man of US shale gas. 60% of our electricity is already generated from gas, 20% from renewables and the rest from peat and coal.
Switching from peat and coal to gas will not exclusively help Ireland reach her emissions reduction targets.

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 08:08PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Well you're the one speculating on the document and making assumptions, not us.

Links were posted to the documents which were littered with references to wind energy exports.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 08:10PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Links were posted to the documents which were littered with references to wind energy exports.

The scale of which is not mentioned.

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 08:16PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Ah the straw man of US shale gas. 60% of our electricity is already generated from gas, 20% from renewables and the rest from peat and coal.
Switching from peat and coal to gas will not exclusively help Ireland reach her emissions reduction targets.

I highlighted the many other ways emissions are reducing. Wind in contrast has failed to significantly reduce emissions in the EU. In any case these emission targets are now up for debate at EU level and it would be usefull if the Irish government would cop on to themselves and realize that Ireland emissions are in any case negligible at an EU level let alone a world level. The only reason its so gung ho on all this in any case is thanx to the lobbying power of the politically well connected wind industry in this country. In stark contrast they have consistently dragged their feet on the targets for water quality, biodiversity loss etc.

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 08:22PM

Heroditas wrote: »

The scale of which is not mentioned.

in respect of Gridwest there are proposals to build 500 giant turbines in North Mayo for wind energy export. It just so happens that the Gridwest project involves the construction of massive pylons into this low population density rural area - it actually terminates in vast blanket bog outside Crossmolina. Eirgrids speil for this project constantly refers to "energy exports"

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 08:31PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Were did people get this idea from anyway ? Our wind power is for meeting the EU requirements + more energy needs. Did a paper come up with this idea or is it just a rumour people choose to believe.

Have you not heard of the Bord Na Mona Clean Energy Hub?

Export opportunity

Wind is an abundant natural resource with the potential to become one of our major exports

Wind is an abundant resource with the potential to become one of Ireland’s major economic exports. There are a number of wind energy projects currently seeking to connect to the National Electricity Grid. With the Irish electricity system able to accommodate approximately one quarter of these projects by 2020, Ireland will be left with surplus wind power after we have met our renewable energy target. This energy can be exported to Ireland’s economic benefit while helping our EU neighbours meet their clean energy targets.

The Irish electricity system will be able to accommodate approximately one quarter of the wind energy projects active in the country by 2020.
The excess wind capacity will be available for export

http://www.cleanenergyhub.ie/why-we-need-wind-energy/export-opportunity/

Mountainsandh · 11-02-2014 08:33PM

Heroditas wrote: »

The scale of which is not mentioned.

Leading to conjecture and suspicions. Why simply not tell us ? Direct reference to the upgrade seems to be consistently avoided in relation to exports. If the proportion needed for exports is negligible, or very reasonable, then I see no reason to keep it quiet. What lines need to cater for more because exports are likely from what areas ? What new lines ?
If there is no issue, considering the degree of detail and planning, they should know and be willing to tell.

darkpagandeath · 11-02-2014 08:35PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Have you not heard of the Bord Na Mona Clean Energy Hub?

Export opportunity

Wind is an abundant natural resource with the potential to become one of our major exports

Wind is an abundant resource with the potential to become one of Ireland’s major economic exports. There are a number of wind energy projects currently seeking to connect to the National Electricity Grid. With the Irish electricity system able to accommodate approximately one quarter of these projects by 2020, Ireland will be left with surplus wind power after we have met our renewable energy target. This energy can be exported to Ireland’s economic benefit while helping our EU neighbours meet their clean energy targets.

The Irish electricity system will be able to accommodate approximately one quarter of the wind energy projects active in the country by 2020.
The excess wind capacity will be available for export

http://www.cleanenergyhub.ie/why-we-need-wind-energy/export-opportunity/

So would that be a common theme in all the documents I wager so were does it say there building them for purely just exporting ? It says excess in that one.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 08:42PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So would that be a common theme in all the documents I wager so were does it say there building them for purely just exporting ? It says excess in that one.

Bord na Mona unveils billion euro wind energy export project for Offaly and Kildare

Bord na Mona has unveiled a billion euro energy export plan to turn bogs across Offaly and Kildare into wind farms.

The company said it will use 20,000 hectares of land it holds to sell electricity to the UK and Europe - enough to power one million homes.

Pat Rabbitte, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, said the plan showed peatlands which are far away from concentrations of people can be a suitable location for wind power.

"I have been working hard with my colleagues in the British Government to develop a framework to allow for exports of green energy to Britain and beyond," he said.

The plan is billed as Bord na Mona's clean energy hub and aims to supply 2GW of electricity - enough to power one million homes - direct into the British and mainland European energy market.

Two companies - Element Power and Mainstream - are already seeking the green light to erect 1,150 giant turbines across Offaly, Laois, Kildare, Meath and Westmeath with the aim to export electricity to the UK.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/bord-na-mona-unveils-billion-euro-wind-energy-export-project-for-offaly-and-kildare-29697212.html

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 08:57PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

I highlighted the many other ways emissions are reducing. Wind in contrast has failed to significantly reduce emissions in the EU. In any case these emission targets are now up for debate at EU level and it would be usefull if the Irish government would cop on to themselves and realize that Ireland emissions are in any case negligible at an EU level let alone a world level. The only reason its so gung ho on all this in any case is thanx to the lobbying power of the politically well connected wind industry in this country. In stark contrast they have consistently dragged their feet on the targets for water quality, biodiversity loss etc.

The emission targets are not up for debate at all.
What is now up for debate is the method by which those reductions are achieved.
The 2020 targets called for 20% renewable electricity generation, 20% energy efficiency improvement and 20% drop in emissions. This flexibility was granted because many nations simply couldn't achieve a flat cut in emissions which was the whole premise of these targets.
As it stands, quite a few member states are now struggling with achieving some of these metrics so the EU is looking to go back to a simple cut of emissions with binding targets rather than binding measures. Each nation can do what it wants to achieve these cuts.
However, not just 2020 targets but there are 2030 targets as well as the long range aim to cut emissions by 80% by 2050. The measures you mentioned will not achieve that.

Lobbying power of the politically well connected wind industry - I've never heard such paranoid nonsense. The vast majority of wind farms in this country are small scale wind farms owned by farmers or owned by the energy companies.
You'd swear there are secret negotiations going on behind closed doors in smokey rooms. It's laughable.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 08:58PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Bord na Mona unveils billion euro wind energy export project for Offaly and Kildare

Bord na Mona has unveiled a billion euro energy export plan to turn bogs across Offaly and Kildare into wind farms.

The company said it will use 20,000 hectares of land it holds to sell electricity to the UK and Europe - enough to power one million homes.

Pat Rabbitte, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, said the plan showed peatlands which are far away from concentrations of people can be a suitable location for wind power.

"I have been working hard with my colleagues in the British Government to develop a framework to allow for exports of green energy to Britain and beyond," he said.

The plan is billed as Bord na Mona's clean energy hub and aims to supply 2GW of electricity - enough to power one million homes - direct into the British and mainland European energy market.

Two companies - Element Power and Mainstream - are already seeking the green light to erect 1,150 giant turbines across Offaly, Laois, Kildare, Meath and Westmeath with the aim to export electricity to the UK.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/bord-na-mona-unveils-billion-euro-wind-energy-export-project-for-offaly-and-kildare-29697212.html

As has been pointed out numerous times, Element Power and Mainstream have previously indicated they are willing to build their own network and interconnectors.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 09:07PM

Heroditas wrote: »

As has been pointed out numerous times, Element Power and Mainstream have previously indicated they are willing to build their own network and interconnectors.

Yes, I know that; Bord na Mona are presumably going to use EirGrid since they make no mention of building their own network. They will all be competing for the same market abroad so will there be sufficient demand for the electricity in the UK/France? And if it all goes pear-shaped (like the building boom) will the Irish taxpayer have to pick up the tab in the form of a NAMA for wind farms?

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 09:12PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Yes, I know that; Bord na Mona are presumably going to use EirGrid since they make no mention of building their own network. They will all be competing for the same market abroad so will there be sufficient demand for the electricity in the UK/France? And if it all goes pear-shaped (like the building boom) will the Irish taxpayer have to pick up the tab in the form of a NAMA for wind farms?

Oh for Christ's sake, Bord na Mona are going to rent their bogland to the likes of Element Power and Mainstream who will then build the turbines on Bord na Mona's land.

Yet again we see the NAMA "bogeyman" trotted out to indulge in some scaremongering.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 09:16PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Lobbying power of the politically well connected wind industry - I've never heard such paranoid nonsense.

The SEAI advises the Irish government on renewable energy policy. The chairman of the SEAI is Brendan Halligan who happens to be a director and shareholder of Mainstream Renewable Power. Oddly enough the SEAI is very keen on wind energy, particulary wind energy for export. Fintan Drury (ex Anglo-Irish Bank) is a shareholder of Mainstream. Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo-Irish Bank bought 1 million euros worth of shares in Mainstream in 2008.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 09:23PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Oh for Christ's sake, Bord na Mona are going to rent their bogland to the likes of Element Power and Mainstream who will then build the turbines on Bord na Mona's land.

They are three separate projects; look them up.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 09:24PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

The SEAI advises the Irish government on renewable energy policy. The chairman of the SEAI is Brendan Halligan who happens to be a director and shareholder of Mainstream Renewable Power. Oddly enough the SEAI is very keen on wind energy, particulary wind energy for export. Fintan Drury (ex Anglo-Irish Bank) is a shareholder of Mainstream. Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo-Irish Bank bought 1 million euros worth of shares in Mainstream in 2008.

SEAI certainly provide some advice but have little or no influence in affecting the important bit which is legislation. They're an empty vessel and if you ever have dealings with them, you'll see this.
They carry out research, give grants and act on behalf of DCENR for certain matters but to say they advise the government is nonsense.
Halligan is the chair of SEAI alright but has nothing to do with the day to day business. The same goes for most of the rest of the board.
Brian Motherway is the CEO and is head honcho in SEAI.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 09:27PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

They are three separate projects; look them up.

I don't need to. BNM do not have the capability to deliver such a large project themselves and are more than happy to flog the land to the likes of Element Power.
Also, as a company they are fast becoming (quite literally) a fossil. They're making as much noise as possible to show they're still a viable entity when in reality they should just be merged with Coillte and their energy generation assets sold off.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 09:39PM

Heroditas wrote: »

I don't need to. BNM do not have the capability to deliver such a large project themselves and are more than happy to flog the land to the likes of Element Power.
Also, as a company they are fast becoming (quite literally) a fossil. They're making as much noise as possible to show they're still a viable entity when in reality they should just be merged with Coillte and their energy generation assets sold off.

Well you should tell BNM that because they seem to think that Clean Energy Hub is a separate project.
http://www.cleanenergyhub.ie/

Element Power: Greenwire
http://www.greenwire.ie/

Mainstream Renewable Power: Energy Bridge
http://www.energybridge.ie/

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 09:48PM

As I said, BNM are in danger of becoming obsolete, hence their promotion of something like this.
However, they're state owned. Surely it would be a good thing for Ireland if they did this?
Increased revenue = increased dividend to the state = more money for Ireland

Mountainsandh · 12-02-2014 12:13AM

Heroditas wrote: »

As has been pointed out numerous times, Element Power and Mainstream have previously indicated they are willing to build their own network and interconnectors.

I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere, but I didn't really go looking.
How would that work so ?
Would they have to have their own pylons, their own cables, etc... ?

You'd swear there are secret negotiations going on behind closed doors in smokey rooms. It's laughable.

Ah ! Ah ! yeah ... because these kinds of brown envelopes and a favour given a favour returned deals never happened before in this country.

Sorry for the sarcasm.
But I really mean it, Ireland has an outrageous record for these kind of deals, just look at the planning, development, and rezoning records of the last 20 years. Seriously.

It is very very hard indeed to trust state, semi state owned, and very powerful companies as a result. Things are becoming somewhat more transparent now, but we're not quite there yet.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-02-2014 01:27AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Switching from peat to gas would bring us along way down that road.

Makes sense.

Until you look at the numbers. Peat provides about 10% of our electricity. If gas were to halve the CO2 then the maximum savings are about 5%

Wind is producing 20% of our power, 24% in December and hopefully 40% sometime soon. Against that 5% isn't a lot, especially when peat isn't sustainable in the medium term and biomass is already in use at the peat plants because it's already being phased out.

Electrical equipment, cars and other technologies are getting steadily more energy efficient.

Have to laugh at this.
Large electrical devices like motors and transformers have been 90-99% efficient for ages - first car to beat 100Km/hr was an electric car in 1899. Nowadays we can make them smaller. Permanent magnets help but it's only about 3% difference compared to energising stators.

Heaters aren't more efficient. Insulation is better nowadays and we have better controls. Heat pumps rarely live up to the fantastic claims made for them and are capital expensive especially as part of a retro fit.

Lighting and TV's , as they get cheaper we use more. Simple as.
I can remember when people had portable black and white TV's that could run off a car battery. No one had 40" TV's back then. Rough rule of thumb poor people spend about 10% of their income on energy , rich people spend 1%.

Also ye keep ignoring the demand that electric cars will place on the system

An interesting example is that computers are now more energy efficient. But the cloud means that there has been a huge increase in the power used by new networks (look at the efibre roll out) , yes the watts per megabit has dropped but speeds are getting faster, new webfarms and there is the whole "internet of things" nibbling away at power too. You have to face it we are addicted to electricity. Whole classes of energy efficient devices that don't exist today will come into being. Just look at the stuff our parents or grandparents didn't have.

Bitcoin mining is estimated to use $15m worth of electricity a day
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/03/fascinating-number-bitcoin-mining-uses-15-millions-worth-of-electricity-every-day/

US emission are coming down swiftly thanx to the shale gas revolution, in stark contrast to Germany who's emission are continuing to rise as more and more wind is added to their grid.

Interesting factoid I found out recently. The older German coal plants have finite lives. They've agreed to shut them down. So now it's cheaper to run them into the ground because they are cheaper than gas and won't be usable in a few years.

It's a bean counter thing. Fixed asset depreciation / lower than expected carbon credit prices.

And again Germany has shed a lot of nuclear power. And has been exporting to Switzerland and Austria because of the very low wholesale rate on their shared market. France has also been importing a lot of power from them.

Also I cba looking up the link but IIRC the rise in CO2 / coal was something like 0.6%

Mountainsandh · 12-02-2014 02:11AM

But there are options to reduce emissions.
Bioenergy looks a good one.
Minister O'Dowd mentions the biomethane (and biogas) potentials I have linked to earlier, that you have comfortably ignored CM.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Corporate+Units/Press+Room/Speeches/2013/Address+by+Minister+O+Dowd+at+the+IrBEA+13th+National+Bioenergy+Conference.htm

There are lots of solutions, not of the scale of wind, and potentially more costly at first glance, that you seem intent on ignoring or shooting down in flames, because not making money but spending some.

That's very short sighted in my opinion, and the EU is now according some flexibility in reaching targets, so there is no excuse for putting all your eggs in one basket because it's quick, easy, and a potential (quick) money making exercise.

If the Gridlink project, and wind investment were somewhat downscaled, that would be that bit more money to be invested in research and pilot schemes for new ideas, with great C02 reducing potential.

I am not talking about scrapping wind altogether, but keeping it a reasonable scale instead of going for it hook, line and sinker.

Though wind has to date been by far the most significant source of renewable electricity and, indeed, is expected to continue in that regard, the Government recognises it must be complemented by other policies to meet our renewables target.

Heroditas · 12-02-2014 09:20AM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

But there are options to reduce emissions.
Bioenergy looks a good one.
Minister O'Dowd mentions the biomethane (and biogas) potentials I have linked to earlier, that you have comfortably ignored CM.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Corporate+Units/Press+Room/Speeches/2013/Address+by+Minister+O+Dowd+at+the+IrBEA+13th+National+Bioenergy+Conference.htm

There are lots of solutions, not of the scale of wind, and potentially more costly at first glance, that you seem intent on ignoring or shooting down in flames, because not making money but spending some.

How much will a kWh of energy cost if it's generated from bioenergy in that case? If it looks good, you've obviously costed it.

The Irish Bioenergy Association spend their time moaning that they need subsidies increased dramatically for it to take hold. That should give a hint as to its current cost effectiveness.

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