Pylons

Birdnuts

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Has it not been mentioned again and again it cant be accommodated on existing pylons as there already upgraded to max capacity. Or do people think they put in new networks every 20 years instead of constantly upgrading them when new technology becomes available and is cost effective.

Upgrading does not mean building a vast new network of pylons through low population density rural areas as proposed by Eirgrids wind power inspired plans. Existing pylon networks are upgraded across the world on existing routes all the time

Jester252

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I hope you realize your 2 posts give a very ironic outlook on your position.

In your first post, you downright dismiss a number of renewable energy alternatives that have not really been seriously piloted here, on the grounds that ... they won't work, iyo.

In your second post, you are highlighting people's natural weariness, or even fear of new projects.

:rolleyes:

There is a difference between scientific fact i.e geographic and unsupported claims. Learn the difference

darkpagandeath

Birdnuts wrote: »

Upgrading does not mean building a vast new network of pylons through low population density rural areas as proposed by Eirgrids wind power inspired plans. Existing pylon networks are upgraded across the world on existing routes all the time

Hang on one of the Anti sides main points is how it effects loads of people now it's hardly any ? And do you have Proof that the upgrade is for Wind power please share this with all of us. As turbines are constantly trotted out with zero proof of this being the case. There maybe some support for a limited number that's all we know.

Capt'n Midnight

Birdnuts wrote: »

Upgrading does not mean building a vast new network of pylons through low population density rural areas as proposed by Eirgrids wind power inspired plans. Existing pylon networks are upgraded across the world on existing routes all the time

The Maynooth line was upgraded recently so the wires can carry enough current to get to 200 degrees instead of 60 and there's 2,000Km of upgrades in Grid25 compared to 800Km of new line.

Birdnuts

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hang on one of the Anti sides main points is how it effects loads of people now it's hardly any ? And do you have Proof that the upgrade is for Wind power please share this with all of us. As turbines are constantly trotted out with zero proof of this being the case. There maybe some support for a limited number that's all we know.

I and others have already posted links here quoting Eirgrids rational for the likes of gridwest etc. - if you can't be bothered reading such links - fine!! but don't keep trotting out that tired line.

Mountainsandh

Jester252 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

There is a difference between scientific fact i.e geographic and unsupported claims. Learn the difference

Well, one could remark that you are claiming these renewable energy options are not feasible for Ireland.

You also seem to claim that the non-viability of such projects is a scientific fact.

Capt'n Midnight

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It's like a 2 adults 2 kids family being told to purchase a 7 seater Renault Espace, to cope with driving around the neighbours' kids to school.
Would the 4 people family do as well with a 5 seater ?

That might have made more sense when our population was approaching 4 million.

But our population is already over 4 million with more on the way. And that's not counting all the people who'd come back if the economy improves.

So it's more like 2 adults , two teenagers, a young child and herself is pregnant.

Jester252

Birdnuts wrote: »

People have legtimate concerns on many fronts as regards these multi billion euro pylon proposals given that they appear to benefit wind developers as opposed to energy users.

Who will use the high power transmission line? Hint its not the end user. These lines will allow for greater development of renewable project and improved stability of the gird. Helping Ireland from being fined for missing it targets

Alarm bells are ringing all over Europe about the cost and unreliablity of wind power which is why the EU is looking at its renewable targets again. Spain is the latest country to cut subsidies to wind on the back of escalating costs.

Last time the EU looked at the targets Ireland was told that it had to achieve a greater percentage of electricity from renewable. Spain is cutting subsidies because it is allowing the wind industry no longer needs government support to break into the energy market seen as wind now accounts for the majority of electricity production in Spain.

Ireland already has the 4th highest energy bills in the EU and we don't need to move further up the table on the back of such white elephant projects that will impact all our power bills.

Ireland also has one of the highest cost of living in the EU, while Wind is one of the cheapest energy producer. Ireland large energy bill is due more to the cost of living than wind.

Add to that property devaluation and tourism concerns as expoused by the likes of Bord Failte means that these proposals are rightly under fire from many quarters

Two unfounded claims that also have report contradicting them them

Birdnuts wrote: »

And what is your qualification?? Motorways!! - how about apples and oranges??:rolleyes:

Undergrad studying energy control, currently studying a doctorate in energy management.
Apples and oranges are fruit love, quite similar. The term you where looking for was chalk and cheese

Jester252

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Well, one could remark that you are claiming these renewable energy options are not feasible for Ireland.

You also seem to claim that the non-viability of such projects is a scientific fact.

Well one could try reading energy report instead what John is posting of Facebook

Also one could try reading a geography book.

Greensleeves

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hang on one of the Anti sides main points is how it effects loads of people now it's hardly any ? And do you have Proof that the upgrade is for Wind power please share this with all of us. As turbines are constantly trotted out with zero proof of this being the case. There maybe some support for a limited number that's all we know.

Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security Debate
Wednesday, 30 September 2009

Mr. Dermot Byrne (EirGrid): I refer to my last slide. In terms of the next steps and Grid 25, we have developed an implementation plan with a number of work streams, including the technology work stream which is well developed. Our strategy will be flexed to respond to changing circumstances because even since we developed Grid 25 we have had to revise our demand forecast because of the economic tsunami that hit us all. However, much of Grid 25 is driven not by the underlying economy but by the transformation happening on the generation portfolio with increasing amounts of wind.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/CLJ2009093000003

Capt'n Midnight

Jester252 wrote: »

Wind is the only viable renewable option for Ireland.

Wave and geothermal are perfectly feasible. It's just that the capital cost is horrendous. Wave power would have to withstand the worst storms, geothermal means going down a km or two and that's at the best hotspots.

Offshore wind is more expensive than onshore, because you have to build something wave proof before you even start.

Small wind turbines are very expensive because of all the duplication of ancillary systems, and supports, complete lack of economies of scale etc.

Tidal turbines are under test but it will be years before there's more than a few 100MW of it.



But that's all in the future.

Today it's onshore wind that's gives the best return. One of the reasons (and there are many) why I'm anti-nuclear is that it takes capital away from developing alternative forms of power.


The simplest way to think of Grid 25 is like the road improvements we've had over the years. Some roads were improved and new ones built. But the sun still continued to rise in the morning.

Greensleeves

Jester252 wrote: »

Spain is cutting subsidies because it is allowing the wind industry no longer needs government support to break into the energy market seen as wind now accounts for the majority of electricity production in Spain.

So why is the Spanish wind industry upset by the cuts then?

Spain has sparked the anger of the wind industry by ending all price subsidies for wind power projects that came online before the end of 2004.

More than 8.4 gigawatts of wind power came online in Spain by the end of 2004, meaning they will no longer get subsidized electricity prices. More than 37 percent of the country’s 22.6 gigawatts of wind power will no longer be subsidized.

The wind industry calls Spain’s 1,700-page resolution “retroactive looting.” Investors in Spanish wind power were lured into the industry by the government’s promise that it would maintain generous feed-in tariffs for 20 years.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/07/spain-ends-subsidies-to-nearly-40-percent-of-its-wind-energy-capacity/

Greensleeves

Jester252 wrote: »

Two unfounded claims that also have report contradicting them them

Pylons have even greater price effect than dumps

CONCERNS about the location of pylons and wind farms are impacting on the recovering property market in rural areas, auctioneers claim.

Homebuyers are trying to avoid purchasing houses near the likely locations for the hotly-contested infrastructure.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pylons-have-even-greater-price-effect-than-dumps-29992746.html

Jester252

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Wave and geothermal are perfectly feasible. It's just that the capital cost is horrendous. Wave power would have to withstand the worst storms, geothermal means going down a km or two and that's at the best hotspots.

Offshore wind is more expensive than onshore, because you have to build something wave proof before you even start.

Small wind turbines are very expensive because of all the duplication of ancillary systems, and supports, complete lack of economies of scale etc.

Tidal turbines are under test but it will be years before there's more than a few 100MW of it.



But that's all in the future.

Today it's onshore wind that's gives the best return. One of the reasons (and there are many) why I'm anti-nuclear is that it takes capital away from developing alternative forms of power.


The simplest way to think of Grid 25 is like the road improvements we've had over the years. Some roads were improved and new ones built. But the sun still continued to rise in the morning.

TBF wave is just another form of wind energy.
As for geothermal the sheer cost of drilling down to appropriate depths is why I don't consider it a viable option currently in Ireland.

Birdnuts

Jester252 wrote: »

Who will use the high power transmission line? Hint its not the end user. These lines will allow for greater development of renewable project and improved stability of the gird. Helping Ireland from being fined for missing it targets



Last time the EU looked at the targets Ireland was told that it had to achieve a greater percentage of electricity from renewable. Spain is cutting subsidies because it is allowing the wind industry no longer needs government support to break into the energy market seen as wind now accounts for the majority of electricity production in Spain.



Ireland also has one of the highest cost of living in the EU, while Wind is one of the cheapest energy producer. Ireland large energy bill is due more to the cost of living than wind.



Two unfounded claims that also have report contradicting them them





Undergrad studying energy control, currently studying a doctorate in energy management.
Apples and oranges are fruit love, quite similar. The term you where looking for was chalk and cheese

Lets look at your unfounded claims with a few relevant links

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/07/spain-ends-subsidies-to-nearly-40-percent-of-its-wind-energy-capacity/


http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/wind-power-investments-in-germany-proving-riskier-than-thought-a-946367.html#spLeserKommentare

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pylons-have-even-greater-price-effect-than-dumps-29992746.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-scraps-renewable-energy-targets-1.1664136


Denmark has the the highest wind energy penetrations on any grid in Europe - it also has the highest retail energy bills in Europe. And this is the example the likes of Eamon Ryan,Rabbitte etc. would have us follow!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Jester252

Greensleeves wrote: »

Pylons have even greater price effect than dumps

CONCERNS about the location of pylons and wind farms are impacting on the recovering property market in rural areas, auctioneersclaim.

Homebuyers are trying to avoid purchasing houses near the likely locations for the hotly-contested infrastructure.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pylons-have-even-greater-price-effect-than-dumps-29992746.html

Note that word.

Greensleeves wrote: »

So why is the Spanish wind industry upset by the cuts then?

Spain has sparked the anger of the wind industry by ending all price subsidies for wind power projects that came online before the end of 2004.

More than 8.4 gigawatts of wind power came online in Spain by the end of 2004, meaning they will no longer get subsidized electricity prices. More than 37 percent of the country’s 22.6 gigawatts of wind power will no longer be subsidized.

The wind industry calls Spain’s 1,700-page resolution “retroactive looting.” Investors in Spanish wind power were lured into the industry by the government’s promise that it would maintain generous feed-in tariffs for 20 years.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/07/spain-ends-subsidies-to-nearly-40-percent-of-its-wind-energy-capacity/

Would you not be upset if the government cut any funding available to you?

Greensleeves

Jester252 wrote: »

Would you not be upset if the government cut any funding available to you?

Not if, as you claimed, the subsidies were removed because of the success of the industry.

Jester252 wrote: »

Spain is cutting subsidies because it is allowing the wind industry no longer needs government support to break into the energy market seen as wind now accounts for the majority of electricity production in Spain.

Jester252

Birdnuts wrote: »

Lets look at your unfounded claims with a few relevant links

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/07/spain-ends-subsidies-to-nearly-40-percent-of-its-wind-energy-capacity/

Explained already try and keep up :rolleyes:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/wind-power-investments-in-germany-proving-riskier-than-thought-a-946367.html#spLeserKommentare

read the first comment. More to do with greed than wind failure

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pylons-have-even-greater-price-effect-than-dumps-29992746.html

Already addressed note the word claim

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/european-commission-scraps-renewable-energy-targets-1.1664136

We still have targets, do more than read the headline

Denmark has the the highest wind energy penetrations on any grid in Europe - it also has the highest retail energy bills in Europe. And this is the example the likes of Eamon Ryan,Rabbitte etc. would have us follow!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
Do some research. Denmark has energy taxes. Transmission costs are around 7 øre/kWh, and support regimes cost 19 øre/kWh. Industry pays much less than domestic user.

Greensleeves

Jester252 wrote: »

Note that word.

If you read the rest of the article you would have found the following:

"The head of a top midlands auctioneering firm told the Sunday Independent homebuyers are avoiding houses which may be in the pylon zone. Hume Auctioneers' John Dunne said: "The big issue house purchasers are now raising is where are the pylons. Auctioneers across the country are hearing the same questions, pylons and wind farms are as big an issue in house purchases as schools and transport."

The auctioneer's points were confirmed by others in the industry.

"Concerns about pylons and wind farms are freezing the market in certain areas, people believe buying a house near pylons and wind farms is like turkeys voting for Christmas."

Jester252

Greensleeves wrote: »

Not if, as you claimed, the subsidies were removed because of the success of the industry.

Johnny was getting €5 a week from his Dad to help him sell lemonade
After a while Johnny was making €10 a week from his lemonade so his Dad stopped giving him €5 a week.
Now Johnny is only making €5 a week.

If you can't see how someone can be successful and annoyed at a lost of a funding source there is no help for you.

Jester252

Greensleeves wrote: »

If you read the rest of the article you would have found the following:

"The head of a top midlands auctioneering firm told the Sunday Independent homebuyers are avoiding houses which may be in the pylon zone. Hume Auctioneers' John Dunne said: "The big issue house purchasers are now raising is where are the pylons. Auctioneers across the country are hearing the same questions, pylons and wind farms are as big an issue in house purchases as schools and transport."

The auctioneer's points were confirmed by others in the industry.

"Concerns about pylons and wind farms are freezing the market in certain areas, people believe buying a house near pylons and wind farms is like turkeys voting for Christmas."

Its still a lot of hear say.
The only reason why people are having concerns is due to the ill informed dribble spouted by the anti crowd.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

If you rely on house auctioneers who are infamous for lying at every turn to back up your arguments you know you're in trouble.

Birdnuts

Jester252 wrote: »

Explained already try and keep up :rolleyes:



read the first comment. More to do with greed than wind failure



Already addressed note the word claim


We still have targets, do more than read the headline


:rolleyes:
Do some research. Denmark has energy taxes. Transmission costs are around 7 øre/kWh, and support regimes cost 19 øre/kWh. Industry pays much less than domestic user.

Your not fooling anyone by igonoring the contents of the links that undermine your claims. Who do think pays for all the susbsidies that wind gets in terms of provision of pylon infrastructure,access to grid and guaranteed pricing(or "support regimes as you call it!!)?? - thats right, its the bill payer. Yet you pretend otherwise. Both Germany and Denmark have to massively subsidise industry with taxpayers money to cushion them from wind generated high energy prices. In the case of the former it runs to many billions of euros as highlighted in the Economist recently. It has already been shown that wind turbines hit propery values in the UK - worryingly many of these turbines looked at are substantially smaller than the ones proposed in the Irish midlands and elsewhere



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10588121/European-Commission-to-ditch-legally-binding-renewable-energy-targets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546042/Proof-wind-turbines-thousands-home-value-homes-1-2-miles-wind-farms-slashed-11-cent-study-finds.html

Capt'n Midnight

Birdnuts wrote: »

Denmark has the the highest wind energy penetrations on any grid in Europe - it also has the highest retail energy bills in Europe. And this is the example the likes of Eamon Ryan,Rabbitte etc. would have us follow!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Retail energy bills have little to do with the wholesale price.

compare this http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/default.aspx to your electricity bill.

Birdnuts

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Retail energy bills have little to do with the wholesale price.

compare this http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/default.aspx to your electricity bill.

With respect the wholesale price is irrelevant since its the retail price that consumers and bussinesses get hit with.

Mountainsandh

Jester252 wrote: »

Well one could try reading energy report instead what John is posting of Facebook

Also one could try reading a geography book.

Jester really you might want to get off your high horse a bit.

There are numerous energy reports, and not just Irish, and not just the ones you have read as part of your studies.

I'm not training for that, and my job has nothing to do with this, but I have read a number of reports already, and will more than likely read more, since I'm interested.

I am very interested and have a pretty good knowledge of geography too.

For example, I know that there are bogs in Canada, that research is ongoing to find the optimum way of growing various species of sphagnum, and generally to regenerate these (exploited) areas to produce something.
That report is about how sphagnum grows best on dead bogs : http://www.gret-perg.ulaval.ca/uploads/tx_centrerecherche/Picard_MSc_2010_03.pdf

That report states bogs cannot only be regenerated to produce sphagnum, or trees, but also to produce vegetables for human consumption. I wonder could you grow energy producing biomass on that too ? (like say, rapeseed, but I'm sure there's lots of other candidates)
http://www.gret-perg.ulaval.ca/uploads/tx_centrerecherche/Rapport_CultSph_2003_2009_03.pdf

I know too, that this Irish report from 2004 says

There is significant potential for the development of Irish sources of geothermal energy in the
following areas

Private housing – heating / cooling using shallow horizontal or vertical heat
exchangers
• Offices / utilities / industrial / agricultural enterprises – heating / cooling using shallow
or deep vertical heat exchangers/urban heat islands
• In particular the requirements of hospitals, breweries, creameries and industry for both
heating and cooling capacity should be emphasised
• Warm springs and urban district heating systems (potential Glanworth)
• Heat pump collectors in sea water
• Combination of geothermal energy with other energy sources, eg. solar
• (Industrial)
• Deep drilling options similar to Southampton and Aachen
• Enhanced geothermal or hot dry rock systems considered a strategic option for the
future

p. 84

But surely you must know that report, since you're studying that ? That doesn't look too pessimistic to me.

Now, rather than spend money on facilitating wind development because it makes a quick buck, what if Ireland was to fire a few bobs in that direction, as well as the many other directions whose prospects are not half as bad as you found it convenient to state earlier.

As recommended in the report, but again, you must know that. (p,84, just below

12.1 Recommended Actions
In order for geothermal energy to be successfully exploited, there needs to be initiatives in
several areas.

I have to do a bit of my own work now, but I could study more some time and show you more reports suggesting the potential of the options you ruled out above, if you like.

Heroditas

Birdnuts wrote: »

With respect the wholesale price is irrelevant since its the retail price that consumers and bussinesses get hit with.

The retail price is dependent on the wholesale price.
Of course it's relevant.
Price of electricity in Ireland is driven by the price of natural gas.

Birdnuts

Heroditas wrote: »

The retail price is dependent on the wholesale price.
Of course it's relevant.
Price of electricity in Ireland is driven by the price of natural gas.

Increasingly the retail cost of energy across Europe is being inflated by various subsidies and tariffs imposed by governments to subsidise various reneweable energies. It is the main reason why energy users are paying alot more for power in the likes of Germany,Denmark etc. compared to the likes of France. Also why the EU is looking again at its reneweable energy targets as industry in Europe is now at a significant cost disadvantage in terms of energy prices compared to the US and other compeditors.

In Ireland the retail price will continue to rise in order to pay for wind generated subsidies, related pylon infrastuture etc.

Heroditas

Birdnuts wrote: »

Increasingly the retail cost of energy across Europe is being inflated by various subsidies and tariffs imposed by governments to subsidise various reneweable energies. It is the main reason why energy users are paying alot more for power in the likes of Germany,Denmark etc. compared to the likes of France. Also why the EU is looking again at its reneweable energy targets as industry in Europe is now at a significant cost disadvantage in terms of energy prices compared to the US and other compeditors.

In Ireland the retail price will continue to rise in order to pay for wind generated subsidies, related pylon infrastuture etc.

Care to quantify those subsidies in the case of Ireland?
If so, you'll find that fossil fuelled plant benefits far more from subsidies than renewables do.

Birdnuts

Heroditas wrote: »

Care to quantify those subsidies in the case of Ireland?
If so, you'll find that fossil fuelled plant benefits far more from subsidies than renewables do.

Its detailed on ones energy bill - peat fired power stations get some support but are being phased out, reneweable energy also benefits substantially and will increasingly add to such tarriffs if government plans are rolled out on a scale that is already apparent in the likes of Germany and Denmark. This is where the cost of these pylon projects will be felt. The wind industry are lobbying for a initial 300 million euro additional spend on specialized gas plants to fill the gap during the substantial periods of time when wind speeds are low. This will also be added to energy bills. We are only at the start of a process that will see energy bills rise substantially as more reneweables are added to the grid. Worryingly wind turbines in Ireland only produced less than 30% of their installed capacities in 2012 and this is mainly from turbines in the windier parts of Ireland like Donegal and Kerry. Performance in other less windy parts of the country is likely to be even poorer futher adding to costs if current plans for expansion in these areas are followed through:(