Pylons

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2014 08:40PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

With respect the wholesale price is irrelevant since its the retail price that consumers and bussinesses get hit with.

True, but it has very little to do with the price of producing or distributing the power.

In Germany the wholesale price is about 3.8c / KWhr , in the UK they are planning to spend 9.25p for the same.

Even if there is a glut of gas now it hasn't dropped prices back to where they were a decade ago. It's more like Nixon's "The rate of increase of inflation is going down." rather than a long term trend.

Thanks to a grid we can pick and choose our fuel mix and to some extent reduce dependence on fossil fuel imports.

Jester252 · 10-02-2014 08:42PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Your not fooling anyone by igonoring the contents of the links that undermine your claims. Who do think pays for all the susbsidies that wind gets in terms of provision of pylon infrastructure,access to grid and guaranteed pricing(or "support regimes as you call it!!)?? - thats right, its the bill payer. Yet you pretend otherwise. Both Germany and Denmark have to massively subsidise industry with taxpayers money to cushion them from wind generated high energy prices. In the case of the former it runs to many billions of euros as highlighted in the Economist recently. It has already been shown that wind turbines hit propery values in the UK - worryingly many of these turbines looked at are substantially smaller than the ones proposed in the Irish midlands and elsewhere

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10588121/European-Commission-to-ditch-legally-binding-renewable-energy-targets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546042/Proof-wind-turbines-thousands-home-value-homes-1-2-miles-wind-farms-slashed-11-cent-study-finds.html

I have explain to you why Denmark has a high consumer bill, like I said do a bit of research before yelling.
Even if the EU have ditched 2030 targets (for now) we still have 2020.
As for the Daily Mail link, the report is still to be published.

I don't even know why I'm bothering with you. You still keep scream death to wind every time you open up your electricity bill.

Birdnuts · 10-02-2014 08:52PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

True, but it has very little to do with the price of producing or distributing the power.

In Germany the wholesale price is about 3.8c / KWhr , in the UK they are planning to spend 9.25p for the same.

Even if there is a glut of gas now it hasn't dropped prices back to where they were a decade ago. It's more like Nixon's "The rate of increase of inflation is going down." rather than a long term trend.

Thanks to a grid we can pick and choose our fuel mix and to some extent reduce dependence on fossil fuel imports.

All commodities have risen on the back of QE - the reality is that the world is awash with gas with the US now self sufficient and the likes of Qaatar and Algeria in a desperate search for customers for their massive reserves. Vast new deposits also recently discovered in East Africa and Brazil. Most oil producing nations are still burning off enormous amounts of gas as a waste product. Once government around the world stop printing money, then we will see gas as the energy source to power us cheaply, cleanly and efficently well into the future. Its already happening in the US and could happen in the EU too if only we could free our selves from the lobbying power of the wind industry.

PS: As I said earlier the retail price is what hobbles wind based grids and is why British consumers pay less for power than the Germans

Birdnuts · 10-02-2014 08:54PM

Jester252 wrote: »

.

I don't even know why I'm bothering with you. .

Feel free not to as I'm not really interested in spoofers who ignore facts that don't suit their flawed ideologies.

Jester252 · 10-02-2014 09:01PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Jester really you might want to get off your high horse a bit.

There are numerous energy reports, and not just Irish, and not just the ones you have read as part of your studies.

Irish report are kinda important when reviewing energy options in Ireland

I'm not training for that, and my job has nothing to do with this, but I have read a number of reports already, and will more than likely read more, since I'm interested.

I am very interested and have a pretty good knowledge of geography too.

For example, I know that there are bogs in Canada, that research is ongoing to find the optimum way of growing various species of sphagnum, and generally to regenerate these (exploited) areas to produce something.
That report is about how sphagnum grows best on dead bogs : http://www.gret-perg.ulaval.ca/uploads/tx_centrerecherche/Picard_MSc_2010_03.pdf

That report states bogs cannot only be regenerated to produce sphagnum, or trees, but also to produce vegetables for human consumption. I wonder could you grow energy producing biomass on that too ? (like say, rapeseed, but I'm sure there's lots of other candidates)
http://www.gret-perg.ulaval.ca/uploads/tx_centrerecherche/Rapport_CultSph_2003_2009_03.pdf

Not commercial. We can't keep wait for a future solution to a current product. If that was the case I would be advocating Ireland pump its more into thorium reactors or cold fusion. At some stage we have to the technology available to us and at this time, in one of the windiest part of the world, we have wind turbines.

I know too, that this Irish report from 2004 says
p. 84

But surely you must know that report, since you're studying that ? That doesn't look too pessimistic to me.

Now, rather than spend money on facilitating wind development because it makes a quick buck, what if Ireland was to fire a few bobs in that direction, as well as the many other directions whose prospects are not half as bad as you found it convenient to state earlier.

As recommended in the report, but again, you must know that. (p,84, just below

I have to do a bit of my own work now, but I could study more some time and show you more reports suggesting the potential of the options you ruled out above, if you like.

In the report it notes that Ireland won't likely generate electricity from geothermal. Geothermal in the report seem to be viewed as a heating source not an electrical source. We need electrical sources.

Greensleeves · 10-02-2014 09:07PM

From the Independent today...

Energy prices rise by 1pc – with more hikes on the way

Energy prices in Ireland rose by 1pc in January, with rising wholesale electricity and coal prices offsetting falls in oil and gas costs, according to the Bord Gais Energy Index.

...

Reduced availability of relatively cheap and efficient power plants in January due to maintenance issues put upward pressure on wholesale electricity prices despite falling wholesale gas prices and near record volumes of electricity produced from wind turbines, according to the Bord Gais Energy Index.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/energy-prices-rise-by-1pc-with-more-hikes-on-the-way-29993939.html

Mountainsandh · 10-02-2014 09:10PM

Hold on a minute, as per this document from the European Commission, we are expected to reach -20% CO2 emissions in 2020, and 16% renewable energy.

According to CM here, but that can easily be checked, we have outreached these targets already ?

Even if the EU have ditched 2030 targets (for now) we still have 2020.

Birdnuts · 10-02-2014 09:13PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Reduced availability of relatively cheap and efficient power plants in January due to maintenance issues put upward pressure on wholesale electricity prices despite falling wholesale gas prices and near record volumes of electricity produced from wind turbines, according to the Bord Gais Energy Index.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/energy-prices-rise-by-1pc-with-more-hikes-on-the-way-29993939.html

That is telling!!

Greensleeves · 10-02-2014 09:16PM

New wind power installations in Spain fell by 84% last year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-03/eu-wind-power-installations-fell-8-in-2013-industry-group-says.html

BeerWolf · 10-02-2014 09:17PM

"Need additional pylons!"

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2014 09:31PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

All commodities have risen on the back of QE - the reality is that the world is awash with gas with the US now self sufficient and the likes of Qaatar and Algeria in a desperate search for customers for their massive reserves. Vast new deposits also recently discovered in East Africa and Brazil. Most oil producing nations are still burning off enormous amounts of gas as a waste product. Once government around the world stop printing money, then we will see gas as the energy source to power us cheaply, cleanly and efficently well into the future. Its already happening in the US and could happen in the EU too if only we could free our selves from the lobbying power of the wind industry.

gas is going to be so cheap that the UAE (one of the top 10 exporters) would never invest $600m in just 100MW of solar power ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shams_solar_power_station

Oh yeah there is the slight problem of climate change.

Gas is great for load balancing and kicking in when you need it. But it's too expensive to use for base load. Renewables are one way to reduce the amount of gas needed.

Birdnuts · 10-02-2014 09:43PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

gas is going to be so cheap that the UAE (one of the top 10 exporters) would never invest $600m in just 100MW of solar power ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shams_solar_power_station

Oh yeah there is the slight problem of climate change.

Gas is great for load balancing and kicking in when you need it. But it's too expensive to use for base load. Renewables are one way to reduce the amount of gas needed.

In the UAE they regulary spend that kind of money and more on various vanity projects like towers and man-made islands. In any case there is a better case for solar in a climate like that where sunshine is more or less guaranteed year round during daylight hours compared to the far more extreme levels of variability associated with wind peaks and troughts as illustrated on Eirgrids own website. I would also add that solar in Northern Europe has proved to be nearly as big a flop as wind in terms of costs and reducing emmissions.

Greensleeves · 10-02-2014 09:56PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

gas is going to be so cheap that the UAE (one of the top 10 exporters) would never invest $600m in just 100MW of solar power ?

Lots of sun in the UAE and lots of room for solar farms so why not? Shell are big into solar, GDF Suez do nuclear, solar and wind, StatOil does wind. If you have lots of money why not take a punt; not having all your eggs in one basket is a very good idea.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2014 12:13AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

far more extreme levels of variability associated with wind peaks and troughts as illustrated on Eirgrids own website. I would also add that solar in Northern Europe has proved to be nearly as big a flop as wind in terms of costs and reducing emmissions.

Oh dear Lord.

Not this "wind is variable" crap again.

Yes wind is variable, but it's predictable days ahead, and besides grids are designed to respond to outages within 5 seconds.

The National Grid in the UK measured how much fossil reserves they had to use to cover wind falling below predicted levels. It was one thousandth of the power supplied by wind.

Solar in Germany has killed off most of the pumped storage which used to be able command peak prices every day. Solar flattens the peak price much of the time. And you have to remember the cost of solar is still falling.

Has anyone mentioned the recent storms ?
Having redundancy on the grid means less chance of loosing sections. Ring mains and all that.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 12:32AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its detailed on ones energy bill - peat fired power stations get some support but are being phased out, reneweable energy also benefits substantially and will increasingly add to such tarriffs if government plans are rolled out on a scale that is already apparent in the likes of Germany and Denmark. This is where the cost of these pylon projects will be felt. The wind industry are lobbying for a initial 300 million euro additional spend on specialized gas plants to fill the gap during the substantial periods of time when wind speeds are low. This will also be added to energy bills. We are only at the start of a process that will see energy bills rise substantially as more reneweables are added to the grid. Worryingly wind turbines in Ireland only produced less than 30% of their installed capacities in 2012 and this is mainly from turbines in the windier parts of Ireland like Donegal and Kerry. Performance in other less windy parts of the country is likely to be even poorer futher adding to costs if current plans for expansion in these areas are followed through:(

You haven't broken down the PSO to explain who gets what. It is outlined in the PSO decision paper released by the CER.
No mention of capacity payments to conventional generators either which dwarf REFIT.
That's another matter though.

€300m will barely get one medium CCGT plant. Where did you get that figure because there is a large excess of traditional generation fleet currently sitting idle in this country.

As for "less than 30%" installed capacity? 30% is considered a good figure for wind.
It's not "windy" areas that are needed for wind turbines, it's areas with good constant wind speeds that are needed.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2014 01:16AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

The wind industry are lobbying for a initial 300 million euro additional spend on specialized gas plants to fill the gap during the substantial periods of time when wind speeds are low. This will also be added to energy bills. We are only at the start of a process that will see energy bills rise substantially as more reneweables are added to the grid. Worryingly wind turbines in Ireland only produced less than 30% of their installed capacities in 2012

WTF ?

Again National Grid in the UK measured the amount of fossil fuel used when wind fell below predicted levels and it was 1/1,000th of the power wind supplied. Overall wind in the UK supplied 10% of the power and used approx. 10% of the reserve power , so as reliable as the other sources of power by that metric.

Page 63 and 64 of this http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_GCS_2013-2022.pdf
for capacity , note that a goodly proportion of the changes are replacing older plant with more efficient newer ones.

Saying that wind turbines produce 30% of their maximum output is just a dishonest way of saying the wind doesn't blow at full power 24/7.

Or how about this http://www.eirgrid.com/media/EirGridAnnualReport2012.pdf

During the period from January 2012 to December 2012, ... consumption for the period totalled approximately 34.5 TWh
..
The all-island maximum system demand in 2012 of 6,305 MW (megawatts) occurred in December.

Installed dispatchable capacity was 7135MW ROI + 2592MW NI - so we already had 50% to spare at peak demand

running that 24/7 would give 85TWh - works out at 31% capacity rating , and when you take into account that a good bit of the 34.5TWh came from wind there is only one conclusion.

WIND HAD A HIGHER CAPACITY FACTOR THAN FOSSIL FUEL IN 2012

http://www.eirgrid.com/media/OperationalConstraintsUpdate_v1.8_August2013.pdf
BTW Open cycle gas turbines only run at 2/3rd's of their maximum rating to allow them to ramp up to full power when needed.

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 01:25AM

Heroditas wrote: »

€300m will barely get one medium CCGT plant. Where did you get that figure because there is a large excess of traditional generation fleet currently sitting idle in this country.

As for "less than 30%" installed capacity? 30% is considered a good figure for wind.
It's not "windy" areas that are needed for wind turbines, it's areas with good constant wind speeds that are needed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/energy-and-resources/300m-required-to-reach-wind-energy-goal-1.1520391

Says it all about wind power that less than 30% is considered a "good performance". And according to yourself windy areas aren't suitable either. Does this mean the midlands are suitable?? - looking at the averge wind speeds and calm/low wind speed hours for midland weather stations doesn't exactly inspire confidence either. Indeed wind speeds in these areas are similar to areas of Germany were wind operators are losing money hand over fist as I highlighted in a link I posted earlier

PS: If we have excess traditional capacity then what exactly is behind this scramble for wind power and pylons given the failure of similar policies across the EU??

Birdnuts · 11-02-2014 01:40AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Saying that wind turbines produce 30% of their maximum output is just a dishonest way of saying the wind doesn't blow at full power 24/7.

.

So highlighting major flaws in wind energy is being dishonest?? Peak energy demand in this country is associated with long dark winter nights under calm conditions and low temps. Which has been a feature of a number of winters here recently. Even earlier this winter/autumn we had HP dominanted weather and very little wind for weeks. What this does to a grid is highlighted in the link below

http://www.thegwpf.org/germany-coal-power-expanding-green-energy-stagnating/

from the link above

The electricity generated by the renewable energy sector, however, decreased from January to June: The main reason was that the wind was blowing less strongly compared to last year, especially since the beginning of the year. Thus almost ten percent less electricity was generated. The long winter hit the solar power generation: Although the installed capacity was expanded by about 25 percent in 2012, the electricity generated remained on the same level

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 07:55AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/energy-and-resources/300m-required-to-reach-wind-energy-goal-1.1520391

Says it all about wind power that less than 30% is considered a "good performance". And according to yourself windy areas aren't suitable either. Does this mean the midlands are suitable?? - looking at the averge wind speeds and calm/low wind speed hours for midland weather stations doesn't exactly inspire confidence either. Indeed wind speeds in these areas are similar to areas of Germany were wind operators are losing money hand over fist as I highlighted in a link I posted earlier

PS: If we have excess traditional capacity then what exactly is behind this scramble for wind power and pylons given the failure of similar policies across the EU??

Barry O'Halloran isn't exactly an expert in that sector and his article is badly written.
Also that article does not say what you claim, you've twisted it. The 300m refers to "proposed incentives" not capital investment and also the DS3 programme.

Regarding the "scramble for wind power", how do you suggest we meet CO2 reduction targets?
Do we get rid of our heavy industry, ban cars, slash our agriculture industry or use renewables to generate electricity?

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2014 08:37AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: If we have excess traditional capacity then what exactly is behind this scramble for wind power and pylons given the failure of similar policies across the EU??

I'm sorry I can't dumb it down much further for the benefit of those who feign ignorance.

There is a slight difference in running cost. Gas costs money. Wind doesn't.

It's not a difficult concept.

Maybe we should get rid of all our hydro because there's less rain in summer ?

As for the €300m is going legal part of their business plan ? http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/energy-and-resources/power-plant-developer-accuses-eigrid-over-incentive-plan-1.1511267

Having lived in places with inadequate electrical supplies most of you don't realise how good you have it with a stable grid.

Mountainsandh · 11-02-2014 09:16AM

Jester252 wrote: »

Irish report are kinda important when reviewing energy options in Ireland

Straw man : implying that I said Irish reports are not important when what I really said was "There are numerous energy reports, and not just Irish".
Not a great way to win an argument.

Not commercial. We can't keep wait for a future solution to a current product. If that was the case I would be advocating Ireland pump its more into thorium reactors or cold fusion. At some stage we have to the technology available to us and at this time, in one of the windiest part of the world, we have wind turbines.

No. This is where people have to be more clever than just trying to make a quick buck. We do have a choice to slow down, and give other solutions a chance. Thankfully ministers seem to be more up to it than you are.
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Corporate+Units/Press+Room/Speeches/2013/Address+by+Minister+O+Dowd+at+the+IrBEA+13th+National+Bioenergy+Conference.htm
Though wind has to date been by far the most significant source of renewable electricity and, indeed, is expected to continue in that regard, the Government recognises it must be complemented by other policies to meet our renewables target.

In this regard bioenergy has a critical role to play and it is expected that it will account for approximately half of the EU’s (and Ireland’s) renewable energy by 2020.

Bioenergy is highly versatile and can address energy needs across the electricity, heat and transport sectors, and can help position us to meet the challenges in the longer term to 2030 and to 2050. Indeed it is already making an important contribution across all three energy sectors and accounted for three percentage points of the 7.1% from renewable sources in 2012.

Its benefits are manifold. It can contribute to the three pillars of energy policy: security of supply, competitiveness and sustainability.

In the report it notes that Ireland won't likely generate electricity from geothermal. Geothermal in the report seem to be viewed as a heating source not an electrical source. We need electrical sources.

But everything is interconnected.
For targets, heating and transport have a large part to play in reducing C02 emissions.
And of course, while people are using other sources for heating they will not need electricity for it, or not as much. (ie urban geothermal could supply alternative to appartments storage heaters, for example)

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 10:59AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Oh dear Lord.

Not this "wind is variable" crap again.

From the EirGrid TEN YEAR TRANSMISSION FORECAST STATEMENT 2013 (PDF).

7.2.3 Example: Calculation of Capability for Demand at Ennis 110 kV Station
Due to its variable nature, wind generation cannot be relied on to meet the demand at all times. Therefore, to prepare the model for testing the capability for additional demand at Ennis, all wind generation in the vicinity of Ennis was switched off.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 11:09AM

Heroditas wrote: »

Regarding the "scramble for wind power", how do you suggest we meet CO2 reduction targets?
Do we get rid of our heavy industry, ban cars, slash our agriculture industry or use renewables to generate electricity?

Generating wind power in Ireland which will be consumed abroad will make no impact on our CO2 reduction targets. In fact the CO2 emissions from the production of concrete, the trucks delivering the concrete, etc will most likely increase our emissions.

Greensleeves · 11-02-2014 11:12AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There is a slight difference in running cost. Gas costs money. Wind doesn't.

If gas stays in the ground is costs nothing, if wind blows it costs nothing. Harnassing either costs money.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 12:26PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Generating wind power in Ireland which will be consumed abroad will make no impact on our CO2 reduction targets. In fact the CO2 emissions from the production of concrete, the trucks delivering the concrete, etc will most likely increase our emissions.

Here we go with the "exporting wind power" speculation again.

darkpagandeath · 11-02-2014 01:47PM

Heroditas wrote: »

Here we go with the "exporting wind power" speculation again.

Were did people get this idea from anyway ? Our wind power is for meeting the EU requirements + more energy needs. Did a paper come up with this idea or is it just a rumour people choose to believe.

Heroditas · 11-02-2014 02:13PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Were did people get this idea from anyway ? Our wind power is for meeting the EU requirements + more energy needs. Did a paper come up with this idea or is it just a rumour people choose to believe.

From looking at Eddie O'Connor's plans and the other ones such as Greenwire and making that massive assumption.
Also, the likes of Eddie O'Connor and guys in Gaelectric and Element Power spend far too much time on the airwaves trumpeting their causes in a similar manner to Michael O'Leary. I can see how the uninitiated could get many of these schemes mixed up but the constant brash PR campaign from some of these companies really manage to get peoples' backs up.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2014 06:03PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

Generating wind power in Ireland which will be consumed abroad will make no impact on our CO2 reduction targets. In fact the CO2 emissions from the production of concrete, the trucks delivering the concrete, etc will most likely increase our emissions.

Wind can be carbon neutral is as little as six or seven months. Personally I think that's a little optimistic, but it's streets ahead of anything else , and like most of the "issues" raised it's a complete non-issue.

Also none of the anti-pylon protesters have explained how eirgrid can build a network for exporting vast amounts of power at a tiny fraction it would cost anyone else. Maybe that's because the network is for our own use with surplus exported at opportune times in much the same way we import/export electricity at times.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2014 06:21PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

From the EirGrid TEN YEAR TRANSMISSION FORECAST STATEMENT 2013 (PDF).

7.2.3 Example: Calculation of Capability for Demand at Ennis 110 kV Station
Due to its variable nature, wind generation cannot be relied on to meet the demand at all times. Therefore, to prepare the model for testing the capability for additional demand at Ennis, all wind generation in the vicinity of Ennis was switched off.

Thank you for highlighting the need for a grid when there isn't power generated locally.

Wind doesn't produce power when there's no wind.
Fossil fuel plants don't produce power when down for maintenance or refurbishment

Grids are kinda handy for flexibility and stuff

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2014 06:52PM

Greensleeves wrote: »

If gas stays in the ground is costs nothing, if wind blows it costs nothing. Harnassing either costs money.

wow

comparing the O&M costs of wind turbines with the price of imported gas ?

By your logic no one would use hydro because it's very expensive to harness

Pylons

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