Pylons

darkpagandeath

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

There's no point asking you questions because you don't have the answers.
You just puff out spoof. And that's fine. It's nice and clear.

You mean just like saying EMF causes cancer without taking in the weight of scientific information that says otherwise.... I cant prove going outside is safe should I lock myself in my house ?

king_of_inismac

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean just like saying EMF causes cancer without taking in the weight of scientific information that says otherwise.... I cant prove going outside is safe should I lock myself in my house ?

As a scientist I would agree in principle. However EM dosimetry tests are based on measurements of the dielectric properties of human tissue. These properties were examined over the last 100 years and were thought to be well understood.

Some recent (last 6 years) studies have cast some considerable doubt over their accuracy. While I'm not saying pylons are unsafe, I would say the evidence in support of their safety is less reliable than previously thought. More research is definitely required.

darkpagandeath

king_of_inismac wrote: »

As a scientist I would agree in principle. However EM dosimetry tests are based on measurements of the dielectric properties of human tissue. These properties were examined over the last 100 years and were thought to be well understood.

Some recent (last 6 years) studies have cast some considerable doubt over their accuracy. While I'm not saying pylons are unsafe, I would say the evidence in support of their safety is less reliable than previously thought. More research is definitely required.

Fair point but would that not be more to do with the amount of exposure in the home/work rather than a pylon hundreds of meters away in a field. I think its a tad shaky ground to single out pylons as the only reasonable source of this when so many many others are closer.

king_of_inismac

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Fair point but would that not be more to do with the amount of exposure in the home/work rather than a pylon hundreds of meters away in a field. I think its a tad shaky ground to single out pylons as the only reasonable source of this when so many many others are closer.

Both are important IMO.

Many of the safety studies look primarily at SAR (the heating effect of EMF on the body), and complications which could arise from that. Nowhere near the same amount of research has been completed at a cellular/Interceullar effect. Its not a scenario that would inspire confidence.

darkpagandeath

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Both are important IMO.

Many of the safety studies look primarily at SAR (the heating effect of EMF on the body), and complications which could arise from that. Nowhere near the same amount of research has been completed at a cellular/Interceullar effect. Its not a scenario that would inspire confidence.

Do Pylons give off Microwaves ?

Blahblah2012

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You mean just like saying EMF causes cancer without taking in the weight of scientific information that says otherwise....

There's no conclusive evidence to PROVE it doesn't cause cancer.
And considering eirgrid/esb are looking to put these cables on people's property..the onus is on THEM to prove it IS SAFE!!


[quote="darkpagandeath;88881179"
I cant prove going outside is safe should I lock myself in my house ?[/quote]

I don't know. Should you?

darkpagandeath

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

There's no conclusive evidence to PROVE it doesn't cause cancer.
And considering eirgrid/esb are looking to put these cables on people's property..the onus is on THEM to prove it IS SAFE!!




I don't know. Should you?

You can say that about a whole wide range of issues that are considered safe. And is Eirgrid/Esb the EU now or did they pay them for the EU report ? As it’s bordering on conspiracy theories now

Blahblah2012

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You can say that about a whole wide range of issues that are considered safe.

When you're talking about introducing another potential cancer causing source(or one that increases the risk as the EU put it) then it should be scrutinised and rejected. After all the whole point of the new system is to allow for wholesale energy export. Why should people suffer passive exposure to these power lines when they don't need to?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And is Eirgrid/Esb the EU now or did they pay them for the EU report ? As it’s bordering on conspiracy theories now

The EU has a vested interest in this scheme alright. There's no doubt about that.

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

There's no conclusive evidence to PROVE it doesn't cause cancer.
And considering eirgrid/esb are looking to put these cables on people's property..the onus is on THEM to prove it IS SAFE!!

How about an experiment where you run pylons past peoples houses ?
Leave them there for a couple of years and then see who gets sick ??

Oh wait , it's been done. In every country.

You are 70 years too late

They have been proven safe time and time again by epidemiology and history.


Sunlight is more dangerous than pylons.

Mountainsandh

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Fair point but would that not be more to do with the amount of exposure in the home/work rather than a pylon hundreds of meters away in a field. I think its a tad shaky ground to single out pylons as the only reasonable source of this when so many many others are closer.

Thing is though, they are not 100 m away, more like 50/60 m in a lot of cases. Probably a big enough difference in terms of long term exposure.

CM, I haven't read the EU report, maybe it's signposted in there, but I'd like to see some of the studies that show sample populations and illness/death in relation to proximity to pylons, do you have any links pretty please ?
I'll try Google myself, but it's a bit messy to look out for.

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

After all the whole point of the new system is to allow for wholesale energy export. Why should people suffer passive exposure to these power lines when they don't need to?

That's it.

Keep showing up the anti-pylon crowd as being completely ignorant of facts and disregarding any evidence or willingness to engage in discussion.

Come on , admit it , you are either an agent provocateur or an embodiment of Poe's law.


Let me try again. The grid improvements proposed and the budget for them isn't anywhere enough to support wholesale power export.

But keep spouting out the conspiracy theories.


And as for exposure to power lines, the electrical and magnetic field intensities of a pylon are ridiculously low compared to CRT tv's (24KV) or Microwave ovens (2KV) , the corona on many laser printers runs at 5KV. And many florescent displays run at very high voltage too, like in the back of LCD TV's and laptops. Plasma TV's of course use high voltage. The ignition coil in cars.

When ALL of these devices are banned we can look at things that are further away.

Better ban lightening too 'cos it's another source of those effects :rolleyes:

Blahblah2012

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How about an experiment where you run pylons past peoples houses ?
Leave them there for a couple of years and then see who gets sick ??

Oh wait , it's been done. In every country.

You are 70 years too late

They have been proven safe time and time again by epidemiology and history.

More pathetic smart arsëd rubbish.
Just because they are there a long time doesn't make them safe. There are plenty of clusters of illnesses beside power lines. You are even trying to rubbish the EU report that there is an increased risk to health.

At least you don't deny anymore the real purpose for this grid.

You also still won't admit who you work for!!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Sunlight is more dangerous than pylons.

Over exposure..caused skin cancer..no shït Sherlock.

Mountainsandh

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The grid improvements proposed and the budget for them isn't anywhere enough to support wholesale power export.

But let's be honest here CM, we don't know that, unless you have information that we don't. We simply have not been clearly told what upgrade is needed for Ireland, and what proportion is needed for export of renewable energies.
Again if you know more than we do, or if you have found an Eirgrid document stating that, please share !

And as for exposure to power lines, the electrical and magnetic field intensities of a pylon are ridiculously low compared to CRT tv's (24KV) or Microwave ovens (2KV) , the corona on many laser printers runs at 5KV. And many florescent displays run at very high voltage too, like in the back of LCD TV's and laptops. Plasma TV's of course use high voltage. The ignition coil in cars.

When ALL of these devices are banned we can look at things that are further away.

Better ban lightening too 'cos it's another source of those effects :rolleyes:

Use of these devices though is mostly sporadic. I don't leave my microwave, printer, or even TV on all night.
The low emission from pylons is constant (possibly fluctuating, you know best, but unremitting).

Blahblah2012

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That's it.

Keep showing up the anti-pylon crowd as being completely ignorant of facts and disregarding any evidence or willingness to engage in discussion.

You don't discuss anything. You try to ram your gibberish down peoples throats. There is a difference!!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Come on , admit it , you are either an agent provocateur or an embodiment of Poe's law.

More weak insults. Child.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Let me try again. The grid improvements proposed and the budget for them isn't anywhere enough to support wholesale power export.

Wow. More lies. Never doubted your motivations for being in this discussion.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But keep spouting out the conspiracy theories.

Considering the history of this country and its form for corruption I don't think we need to go whinging on about conspiracy theories!!
U seem to warble on about it regularly though!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And as for exposure to power lines, the electrical and magnetic field intensities of a pylon are ridiculously low compared to CRT tv's (24KV) or Microwave ovens (2KV) , the corona on many laser printers runs at 5KV. And many florescent displays run at very high voltage too, like in the back of LCD TV's and laptops. Plasma TV's of course use high voltage. The ignition coil in cars.

When ALL of these devices are banned we can look at things that are further away.

Better ban lightening too 'cos it's another source of those effects :rolleyes:

Yeah yeah. Really... I'm convinced now that we need grid 25 to secure our own energy needs into the future.

Interesting to see you aren't talking in tesla. 24,000v in your tv? Where did you get your tv?

Capt'n Midnight

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

You don't discuss anything. You try to ram your gibberish down peoples throats. There is a difference!!

More weak insults. Child.

Wow. More lies. Never doubted your motivations for being in this discussion.

Interesting

Anything you choose not to understand is gibberish ?


Let's be very clear on this My Views on the anti-plyon brigade have hardened a lot thanks to you and your ilk. I am now vehemently opposed to appeasement unless I start seeing some empathy or willingness to consider the burden being placing on the rest of us.

Interesting to see you aren't talking in tesla. 24,000v in your tv? Where did you get your tv?

Of course I'm not talking in Tesla

Why would I be talking in Tesla ?

It's a serious question.

But you can't answer questions except to question everything like an impermanent child. Grow up and smell the coffee, the world , ie. the rest of us doesn't owe you or any one trying to get compo anything special.

Blahblah2012

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Interesting

Anything you choose not to understand is gibberish ?

Well bûllshît is gibberish... so it's not that I choose not to understand it!!
I just see it for what it is.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Let's be very clear on this My Views on the anti-plyon brigade have hardened a lot thanks to you and your ilk.

What a fine "MOD" you are!!!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I am now vehemently opposed to appeasement unless I start seeing some empathy or willingness to consider the burden being placing on the rest of us.

Burden my arsè. Who do you work for?

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Of course I'm not talking in Tesla

Why would I be talking in Tesla ?

Because magnetic fields are measured in tesla? Gòbshîte!!

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But you can't answer questions except to question everything like an impermanent child. Grow up and smell the coffee, the world , ie. the rest of us doesn't owe you or any one trying to get compo anything special.

You don't speak for US...you speak for your boss. Who do you work for?









An impermanent child? As I said. Gobshîte!!








Compo? MONEY CAN'T BUY HEALTH!!

Ruu

Blahblah2012 banned.

Mod.

joela

SeanW wrote: »

I am referrring to these two posts, were older than I thought.





I 100% admit that my old post was somewhat off the mark - perhaps way off - but your response indicated that you had some connections to the industry, e.g. doing surveys for wind farms, or something.

Right so I respond to your criticism of work undertaken by professionals, which was incorrect and unfair, and it means I am somehow "connected" to the wind farm industry? Should I go back through your posts and attempt to attribute your opposition to pylons to some sinister motive? I couldn't be bothered to be honest.

If you read my posts on this thread I'm not PRO-pylon, I'm annoyed at all the people who suddenly care about the environment despite most never giving a crap about good planning and the environment before. I have also spoken at length to electrical engineers with grid experience who all say the grid needs work and upgrade which is why I hold that opinion. They don't work for Eirgrid either.

I am a scientist first and foremost which is why I get so bugged at people misquoting or selectively quoting studies without actually understanding anything about the issues. That is precisely why I'm so pissed off with the nimbyism surrounding pylons and wind farms, from an ecological point of view it is largely hysteria led, ill informed and just plain wrong. If you are going to object to something then be honest why you are objecting to it and don't misuse environmental or other concerns e.g. health. Where are all these environmentally conscious people when the law is being broken by turf cutters on SAC bogs, when people were building houses all over the countryside, when land was being rezoned by councillors, when floodplain development was happening etc. etc. I don't remember very many people ever speaking out or helping campaign against any of this.

You don't like the look of the pylons/turbines and don't want to live near one? Fine, then put your case forward factually and without hysteria, provide supporting evidence for the impacts you claim it will have. Just don't misuse the evidence available and don't accuse those of us who have expertise in the various disciplines as being shills or as having material interests for pointing out the holes in the argument. It is a weak approach to take and as I said before the hysteria will not help the case against pylons/turbines. Evidence based objections and correct use of the planning system and law is the way forward.

Mountainsandh

joela wrote: »

Where are all these environmentally conscious people when the law is being broken by turf cutters on SAC bogs, when people were building houses all over the countryside, when land was being rezoned by councillors, when floodplain development was happening etc. etc. I don't remember very many people ever speaking out or helping campaign against any of this.

...

correct use of the planning system and law is the way forward.

People do not trust the planning system, so many mistakes have been made.
While it was happening, it was sometimes hard to see it happening, so a lot of people may not have realised what was going on.

Also joela, how can one person campaign on their own against such things when the masses are just going along with it, or pretending it's not happening ?
When Mr M and I purchased our house, in the middle of all that, and everybody was suggesting to pull it down and build a brand new bungalow, including the architect, we were outraged. But at the time it was a minority of people who realised some things were not right, or at least who admitted to seeing it happening. We were looking at houses on the market, and at all these old properties with great potential, which could have spared the countryside from the bungalow sprawl to a great extent, would people have been forced to put in the effort to renovate, and we were wondering how planning authorities could let that happen.
It seemed planning authorities were untouchable tbh.

My point is simply that all the very bad rezoning, floodplain building, atrocious planning or lack of, were things that some people were concerned and suspicious about, but felt they could not do anything about. Things were not very transparent at the time too, thankfully transparency has greatly improved since the $hit hit the fan in Ireland.

With the current Eirgrid upgrade, people have a chance to voice their concerns (with the public consultation), and now that the hysteria of the boom years and all the social pressures it entails are gone, there is a larger amount of people to gather up and organize proper, vocal, community groups to speak out.

So really it's not people changing their minds, it's people taking action, admittedly too late for some things, but better late than never.

We seem to agree on the damage that has been done re-planning, thing is, anti pylon protesters are arguing that now is not the time to make things worse.

zega

Might be a bit off topic,but seen on rte the other night they've recently put up the countrys biggest wind turbine.

Local residents calling them an eyesore,am i the only one who thinks wind turbines are really pleasing to look at?

They say they are eyesores,i dont agree at all.

joela

Mountainsandh wrote: »

People do not trust the planning system, so many mistakes have been made.
While it was happening, it was sometimes hard to see it happening, so a lot of people may not have realised what was going on.

Also joela, how can one person campaign on their own against such things when the masses are just going along with it, or pretending it's not happening ?
When Mr M and I purchased our house, in the middle of all that, and everybody was suggesting to pull it down and build a brand new bungalow, including the architect, we were outraged. But at the time it was a minority of people who realised some things were not right, or at least who admitted to seeing it happening. We were looking at houses on the market, and at all these old properties with great potential, which could have spared the countryside from the bungalow sprawl to a great extent, would people have been forced to put in the effort to renovate, and we were wondering how planning authorities could let that happen.
It seemed planning authorities were untouchable tbh.

My point is simply that all the very bad rezoning, floodplain building, atrocious planning or lack of, were things that some people were concerned and suspicious about, but felt they could not do anything about. Things were not very transparent at the time too, thankfully transparency has greatly improved since the $hit hit the fan in Ireland.

With the current Eirgrid upgrade, people have a chance to voice their concerns (with the public consultation), and now that the hysteria of the boom years and all the social pressures it entails are gone, there is a larger amount of people to gather up and organize proper, vocal, community groups to speak out.

So really it's not people changing their minds, it's people taking action, admittedly too late for some things, but better late than never.

We seem to agree on the damage that has been done re-planning, thing is, anti pylon protesters are arguing that now is not the time to make things worse.

People did not give a fiddlers when the going was good and bad planning went ahead because nobody was bothered except a small minority who were widely lambasted by the general public. Face it, people only care now because it is quite literally something in their back yards or close by. That is what is most irritating and the bad planning was not due to the system but due to misuse of the system which most of the same people now objecting turned a blind eye to when it didn't bother them. There was always the opportunity to make objections, always the opportunity to go to An Bord Pleanala but nobody was bothered. The anti-pylon protestors only care about themselves and their back yards and that is the grim reality of the general outcry.

On an aside this is a very useful tool for people who do want to be a bit more informed about the natural environment in their area (including landscape) http://heritagemaps.biodiversityireland.ie/#/Map Really good tool, unfortunately not all counties have collected the same level of information but useful nonetheless.

Capt'n Midnight

zega wrote: »

Might be a bit off topic,but seen on rte the other night they've recently put up the countrys biggest wind turbine.

Local residents calling them an eyesore,am i the only one who thinks wind turbines are really pleasing to look at?

They say they are eyesores,i dont agree at all.

Even if you don't like the look of wind turbines they provide 20% of our electricity so that's 20% less smoking chimneys. Unless there are people out there that like chimneys ?


Three bladed turbines have a nice simple ascetic about them. Generally simple clean lines and painted in a colour that means they don't stand out as much against clouds. Though active camouflage with lights might hide them more.

Same for pylons. Ours aren't as ugly as some countries. I dislike the ideas for T shaped ones as they are solid and won't blend into the background when it's cloudy or misty.


Pity we can't just hang the wires from a chain of wind turbines and kill two birds with the one stone :pac:

Greensleeves

joela wrote: »

People did not give a fiddlers when the going was good and bad planning went ahead because nobody was bothered except a small minority who were widely lambasted by the general public. Face it, people only care now because it is quite literally something in their back yards or close by. That is what is most irritating and the bad planning was not due to the system but due to misuse of the system which most of the same people now objecting turned a blind eye to when it didn't bother them. There was always the opportunity to make objections, always the opportunity to go to An Bord Pleanala but nobody was bothered. The anti-pylon protestors only care about themselves and their back yards and that is the grim reality of the general outcry.

On an aside this is a very useful tool for people who do want to be a bit more informed about the natural environment in their area (including landscape) http://heritagemaps.biodiversityireland.ie/#/Map Really good tool, unfortunately not all counties have collected the same level of information but useful nonetheless.

Much of the venom directed at those objecting to pylons and wind farms seems to stem from a desire to punish people for living in one-off houses. Understandable up to a point but childish in the wider context: two wrongs don't make a right. I am opposed to one-off housing and chose to buy and renovate an old cottage rather than build on a site at the homeplace in the midlands. If I had started a campaign to stop one-off houses I would have got nowhere because there was no support for my point of view: most people in rural Ireland like one-off houses.

You are wrong when you say that "the bad planning was not due to the system but due to misuse of the system". One-off houses adhere to planning guidelines down to stipulations about the type of stone cladding permitted, colour of roof, number and size of roof windows, etc. In some areas in the midlands two storey houses are not allowed; houses can only be one and a half storeys high because they are deemed to be visually intrusive. From the point of view of someone living in these houses it is utterly bizarre that a two storey house is deemed visually intrusive but a 45m pylon or a 185m wind turbine is not. The owners of these houses have broken no laws and have complied with planning regulations etc. You may not like one-off houses but they are perfectly legal and unfortunately most people in rural Ireland like them.

I am aware of the work that The Heritage Council does; it made a useful contribution to the wind farm/pylon debate by suggesting a national planning policy for onshore wind and warning of the risk of a ‘light touch’ regulatory approach to renewable energy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/heritage-council-urges-national-planning-policy-for-onshore-wind-1.1629727

Greensleeves

zega wrote: »

Might be a bit off topic,but seen on rte the other night they've recently put up the countrys biggest wind turbine.

Local residents calling them an eyesore,am i the only one who thinks wind turbines are really pleasing to look at?

They say they are eyesores,i dont agree at all.

Personally I think they are eyesores and are best sited offshore. I would not like to live near an industrial wind farm.

I see that the midlands groups opposed to wind farms and pylons are holding a protest march in Dublin on March 5th: nearly 2,000 people turned out at the last march in Mullingar so it will be interesting to see how big a crowd they get this time.

joela

Greensleeves wrote: »

You are wrong when you say that "the bad planning was not due to the system but due to misuse of the system".

I think you may need to read a bit more about planning policy and how abused the planning system is/was. There is planning policy and indeed objectives in most County Development Plans to encourage less dispersed settlement which was/is largely ignored by county councillors keen to continue the long history of parish pump politics in Ireland. http://oneoffireland.wordpress.com/economic-costs/

One-off housing has never been encouraged by planners or planning policy but by politicians and politicking. Now we are reaping the rewards of this short term view in so many different ways.

Mountainsandh

But joela I find it not clear who you think should have lodged the objections ?

~ the people who were already settled in one offs in the countryside, albeit historical/older family farms ?

~ or the people like me who were just about to move into a place, already built, and to renovate ?

~ or the people who were buying the actual plots and plonking a bungalow down on them ?

~ farmers who owned the plots ?

Can you see how this does not make sense ?

You are blaming one of the above for not lodging an objection to one-offs.
Who ?
How do you justify that particular group of people should have lodged objections ?

We agree that people who were buying the plots and building should not have, and should have instead renovated.

But again, and that is the bottom line, they weren't encouraged to do so, or even gently pushed to do so, by planning laws. Their "taking the easy way" was not curbed how it should have been.

So all the venom now seems misplaced, imo.

Even if you don't like the look of wind turbines they provide 20% of our electricity so that's 20% less smoking chimneys. Unless there are people out there that like chimneys ?

Unless there are alternatives ?
But no, according to CM, There are NO alternatives.
Cost this,
Cost that,
too long,
NO alternatives.
Period.
Lots of pylons, lots of turbines.
No other way.
Money.
People want money. (energy producers, and rural dwellers).
It's all about money.

Despite your obvious extensive knowledge of the science in energy production, this is what I get from your posts, every time.

Imo, it is not a good perspective or vision to have for the country, and that kind of viewpoint is what is causing the tensions right now.

Greensleeves

joela wrote: »

I think you may need to read a bit more about planning policy and how abused the planning system is/was. There is planning policy and indeed objectives in most County Development Plans to encourage less dispersed settlement which was/is largely ignored by county councillors keen to continue the long history of parish pump politics in Ireland. http://oneoffireland.wordpress.com/economic-costs/

One-off housing has never been encouraged by planners or planning policy but by politicians and politicking. Now we are reaping the rewards of this short term view in so many different ways.

Corruption is/was rife in all parts of the planning process but the people doing the bribing/lobbying are not the people that live in one-off houses. They legally acquired a plot of land, applied for planning permission, received said permission, complied with any restrictions and are largely oblivious to the disdain that many have for one-off housing. I know plenty of them and it is like kicking a puppy to suggest to them that their much-loved and carefully tended house is a monstrosity. In many respects they are victims in all this because proper planning would have prevented the current situation.

I am totally against one-off housing but I can't understand the "well it is ruined already so let us ruin it even more" attitude. Saving what we can of the Irish countryside from further destruction is preferable IMO.

joela

Greensleeves wrote: »

I am totally against one-off housing but I can't understand the "well it is ruined already so let us ruin it even more" attitude. Saving what we can of the Irish countryside from further destruction is preferable IMO.

Wow so totally not saying destroy the Irish countryside but because the one-off houses are all over the place and need servicing is part of the reason we need to upgrade & extend the grid. I would also argue that pylons are a necessary evil where as one-off houses are not.

I see so many things happening which are much more likely to cause further destruction of the countryside and which are not being subjected to the same scrutiny and forward planning as these Eirgrid schemes. Eirgrid has to look at constraints & route selection before even getting to the EIA of the preferred route option. Eirgrid has to be absolutely cognisant of all planning and environmental legislation because it is subject to intense public scrutiny yet there are a multitude of activities ongoing throughout the country which are probably more destructive in the long term and are largely being ignored by the anti-pylon/anti-turbine groups. Obviously there are exceptions within these groups who are committed environmental campaigners who are working to oppose all bad planning & environmental damage but they seem to be in short supply among these groups which is why I, and others, feel that much of the opposition is purely nimbyism.

I think it is far too easy to sit back and say "sure what could we have done" about the bad planning and one-off housing problems but there were and are people out there opposing bad planning and campaigning to prevent destruction/damage to the Irish countryside. An Taisce, Irish Wildlife Trust, Irish Environmental Network, BirdWatch Ireland, Friends of the Irish Environment, Friends of the Earth Ireland, The Woodland League and Native Woodland Trust to name but a few are all crying out for membership and volunteers. It would have been and is very easy to get involved or support these groups by simply donating. If nothing else the anti-pylon groups should now recognise the dedication and purpose of these groups and hopefully begin to support them on other issues.

Capt'n Midnight

joela wrote: »

If nothing else the anti-pylon groups should now recognise the dedication and purpose of these groups and hopefully begin to support them on other issues.

They could also support the plight of people already afflicted with pylons.

If the anti-plyon groups really believed there were health issues then anything less is treating those who already live near pylons as second class citizens, and expecting them to pay more for electricity too is just taking the proverbial.

Mountainsandh

But again, do these organisations, these people, need to have their hands held and be led to where they will get support ?

It seems to me the resentment here is focused on the fact that anti-pylon campaigners have mobilized themselves and are fighting for their own plight, in other words, they have taken action, while other groups have been less vocal, or are non-existent.

Again there is nothing to stop other groups, be they people already suffering a pylon next to them, or Friends of the Irish Environment, to publicly call out for help and support, and to campaign in the same manner, maybe even to publicly appeal to anti-pylon campaigners to join them and support them.

As a matter of fact joela, a lot of the names you have mentioned seem to actively publicize their activities using media in the same manner as the anti-pylon groups. So what is the issue ? why the resentment ?

When a community group sets up, of course they have their own individual agenda, why else ? some of these people might already be members of the other groups mentioned above, but this issue is an issue specific to their community at this moment in time, it makes sense that they would deal with it in setting up a community group. Would they have had the same impact had they joined the less specific umbrella groups ?




Again CM, have the people who have a pylon next to them already set up a group of any kind ? Are they vocal ? Are they asking for support ?

Do you think anti-pylon groups would tell either type (Environmental groups, people suffering existing pylons groups) to sod off ?

Is it current anti-pylon groups' responsibility to go dig out every person in Ireland who has a pylon next to their house and ask them to join ?

These remarks sound a bit like a child whinging "they won't play with me", while making no attempt to join whatsoever.