Europe watches Swiss immigration vote

Dyr · 09-02-2014 07:47PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

That's sort of the point of having free movement of labour, people can move based on their skill-sets. I can guarantee you that loads of the Irish emigrants are construction workers, while plenty of the non-Irish immigrants are tech workers. There's absolutely no point in keeping construction workers in the country sitting on the dole when there's free IT jobs and no construction jobs.

thanks for the guarantee but I'm not really interested in taking someones word for it

Amirani · 09-02-2014 07:51PM

Bambi wrote: »

thanks for the guarantee but I'm not really interested in taking someones word for it

Okay. What sort of professions do you think are emigrating and which ones do you think are immigrating? And what's the reasoning?

First Up · 09-02-2014 07:54PM

Bambi wrote: »

Because, according to your link, 50 thousand irish people left this country last year, while 40 thousand non irish people came here in the same period.

Would be nice to try keep the citizens of the country in situ

As far as I know, all 90,000 of those moves were voluntary. So 50,000 Irish (and presumably some others) elected to leave because they couldn't find work, while 40,000 others (presumably including some Irish) came here because they believed they could.
That is a pretty normal migration pattern but what is interesting is that most of those leaving went to English speaking countries, while most of those coming here do not have English as a first language.
If we are to believe the "close the borders" (only on the way in of course) whiners, the immigrants are taking jobs from the emigrants. So why would an Irish employer chose a non Irish, non native speaking foreigner over a nice local lad or lass? Answers on a hankie to this address (and "because they work for buttons" doesn't qualify as an answer. They work for the going rate.)

Frank Lee Midere · 09-02-2014 07:54PM

Controlling immigration wouldn't mean stopping IT workers. They would get in in a points system. Like the Aussie one

Amirani · 09-02-2014 08:00PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Okay. What sort of professions do you think are emigrating and which ones do you think are immigrating? And what's the reasoning?

Edit: The CSO would seem to back up my previous assertion in terms of the immigrant involvement in IT and communication anyway.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/ppsn_2011.pdf

Galwayguy35 · 09-02-2014 08:21PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ireland can hardly talk when we passed a referendum to deny persons citizenship if they are born here without an Irish parent, by 80% odd in favour.

No we didn't, the person born here does get citizenship.

ravingitup · 09-02-2014 08:33PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

No we didn't, the person born here does get citizenship.

What's your point? Yes we did, we changed our nationality law in 2005 from a jus soli based entitlement to a requirement that the person has a tangible connection with Ireland in order to qualify for citizenship, be it through birth, descent or otherwise.

That was the point he was trying to make, and he was correct in what he said.

Piliger · 09-02-2014 08:39PM

I absolutely love our immigration laws. I love the diversity that I encounter all over the country. I love meeting people from all parts of the world, who enrich our culture and language and lives. I love working with them too.
I also love that we can emigrate and work anywhere in the EU and many places around the world when we chose and things are tough.
Considering Ireland dispatched million of poverty stricken emigrants over the last few centuries we are in no position to squeal about a few immigrants from poor countries.

Galwayguy35 · 09-02-2014 08:48PM

ravingitup wrote: »

What's your point? Yes we did, we changed our nationality law in 2005 from a jus soli based entitlement to a requirement that the person has a tangible connection with Ireland in order to qualify for citizenship, be it through birth, descent or otherwise.

That was the point he was trying to make, and he was correct in what he said.

He said a referendum was passed to deny a person citizenship if they were born without an Irish parent, the person born here does get citizenship and to state otherwise is incorrect.

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 08:50PM

Nodin wrote: »

Amazing. There are a few hundred thousand Irish people working across western Europe. What are you going to do when they no longer have access to that labour market?

The stats that I saw recently would put it at approximately 1/2 million Irish citizens living in continental Europe (so that figure excludes the number in the UK which apparently exceeds 1/2 million).

That makes us on a per capita basis, one of (if not the) biggest user of EU mobility.

I assume some posters here would be quite happy if all those people were deported back to Ireland as part of their grand plan?

Galwayguy35 · 09-02-2014 08:50PM

Piliger wrote: »

I absolutely love our immigration laws. I love the diversity that I encounter all over the country. I love meeting people from all parts of the world, who enrich our culture and language and lives. I love working with them too.
I also love that we can emigrate and work anywhere in the EU and many places around the world when we chose and things are tough.
Considering Ireland dispatched million of poverty stricken emigrants over the last few centuries we are in no position to squeal about a few immigrants from poor countries.

Really?

How so?

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 08:55PM

How do they enrich our culture?

Food is one thing and the entire food industry. The amount of continental European (particularly French) influence on the artisan food movement here has been absolutely enormous and very important.

French (and quite a lot of other continental European) immigrants to Ireland are some of the people at the very core of our now growing artisan food industry.
With out some of those people there wouldn't be Irish artisan cheeses, various breads, all sorts of products that actually came about through a bit of a fusion of Irish food heritage with continental food heritages. Loads of food businesses here were kicked off by immigrants who arrived in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s.

Many of our eastern european immigrants have opened our eyes to a wealth of good beers, interesting food and cultural traditions. While this wouldn't be something I'm a huge fan of, they've also reinvigorated a very rapidly dying Irish catholic church. For some Irish people (conservatives in particular) that's probably a positive.

I know quite a few Eastern European people and some Germans and Scandinavians who have become deeply involved with Irish trad music and have brought their own musical cultures into that mix too and have created some pretty amazing stuff.

There have been lots of other crossovers in arts and cultural areas too.

The fact that Ireland's had so much contact with Eastern European countries has also opened up genuine business opportunities as those countries become much wealthier. People make personal connections and those connections open up opportunities

This is an absolutely enormous advantage that Ireland has over many other countries. When it comes to doing business in Eastern Europe (particularly Poland) we now know who to call and how the culture works and more importantly, millions of Eastern Europeans have a generally positive view of Ireland based on personal contacts directly, or indirectly through family and friends who have spent time working here during the boom times.

That's such a fundamentally big a deal and a cultural enrichment that I don't know how anyone could even estimate its potential value in € $ or Zloty terms!

We're a small island on the edge of Europe and the fact that we're extremely good at networking is pretty much all we have as a natural resource!
If we switch to inward-looking isolationism, frankly we're screwed.

Amirani · 09-02-2014 08:57PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Really?

How so?

Ever eaten in a non-Irish restaurant?

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 09:03PM

Actually, I'd also point out that immigration to Ireland's nothing particularly new! Have a look at some of the histories of the bigger urban areas in particular. Dublin, Cork and Belfast especially. There are huge influences from the continent going back for centuries.

Look into your family far enough and you'll probably find a few connections to England or Continental Europe that you didn't expect, especially if you're from a city or port town.

CrabRevolution · 09-02-2014 09:12PM

I remember a few months/years back some UN body with Iran and/or India on it made some recommendation to Ireland, might have been about rights in schools or healthcare.

Some people here rightly said "Who are they to lecture us, they have x y and z going on blah blah blah" but were shot down by most here saying a country needn't be perfect to see fault in others.

But now that the shoe is on the other foot and some here criticize Switzerland, aparrently now we do have to be perfect before we can cast judgment on other countries, and should just shut up if we see fault in them.

A lot of people seem to be very willing to change their opinions as long as they end up casting Ireland in a bad light.

mikeym · 09-02-2014 09:15PM

We should do the right thing and ditch the EU.

Seriously its the worst thing this country has done.

The European Union has too much influence over this country.

Galwayguy35 · 09-02-2014 09:29PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Ever eaten in a non-Irish restaurant?

Yes.

Dyr · 09-02-2014 09:30PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Edit: The CSO would seem to back up my previous assertion in terms of the immigrant involvement in IT and communication anyway.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/ppsn_2011.pdf

"A total of 310,400 foreign nationals who were assigned PPSNs during the
period 2002-2011 recorded some employment in Ireland during 2011. The
majority of foreign nationals were employed in five broad economic activities:
Accommodation and food service activities (58,700), Wholesale and retail
trade (52,100), Administrative and support service activities (41,400),
Manufacturing (35,300), and Human health and social work activities
(27,100). These five sectors accounted for 69% of all foreign national
employment activity in 2011. See table 4a.

In Information and communication, the highest level of employment (39%)
was for the EU15 (excl. Ireland and the UK) nationality group. While 5% of all
foreign national employment was in this sector."

Was your assertion that we're importing workers for the lowest end of the economy rather than finding candidates for engineer roles that we can't fill from the local populace?

because thats what the report you linked seems to suggest

First Up · 09-02-2014 09:33PM

mikeym wrote: »

We should do the right thing and ditch the EU.

Seriously its the worst thing this country has done.

The European Union has too much influence over this country.

I know.
All those agriculture subsidies, cohesion and social funds, access to research, science and technology and foreign investment resulting from our membership - not to mention dragging bits of our legal system out of the middle ages.
Ruined the place.

Dyr · 09-02-2014 09:50PM

First Up wrote: »

As far as I know, all 90,000 of those moves were voluntary. So 50,000 Irish (and presumably some others) elected to leave because they couldn't find work, while 40,000 others (presumably including some Irish) came here because they believed they could.

Leaving aside the fact that as far as you know means sweet f**k all in my book, lets take a look at your use of the word "voluntary"

Every irish women who gets on a plane to the UK for an abortion? Thats voluntary, so no problem there eh?

Every african who drowns crossing the Mediterranean on a smugglers boat? Voluntary too, they elected to take that risk

Every spouse who endures abuse in the home. Yup, Voluntary. They elect to stay in that situation.

So all good in your book, or were you being hugely disingenuous in your post?

Gotta be one or the other bud.

Piliger · 09-02-2014 09:56PM

First Up wrote: »

I know.
All those agriculture subsidies, cohesion and social funds, access to research, science and technology and foreign investment resulting from our membership - not to mention dragging bits of our legal system out of the middle ages.
Ruined the place.

Not to mention the huge IT centres for Microsoft and Yahoo and Intel and the pharma sites. Not to forget the transformation of our consumer rights, the massive national infrastructural development paid by the EU structural fund, huge export opportunities generating thousands and thousands of hobs. Shocking.

First Up · 09-02-2014 10:06PM

Piliger wrote: »

Not to mention the huge IT centres for Microsoft and Yahoo and Intel and the pharma sites. Not to forget the transformation of our consumer rights, the massive national infrastructural development paid by the EU structural fund, huge export opportunities generating thousands and thousands of hobs. Shocking.

Thanks, but I mentioned all of those.

abbir · 09-02-2014 10:08PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He said a referendum was passed to deny a person citizenship if they were born without an Irish parent, the person born here does get citizenship and to state otherwise is incorrect.

Twenty-seventh amendment, Article 9.2

"a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law."

Piliger · 09-02-2014 10:09PM

First Up wrote: »

Thanks, but I mentioned all of those.

Ehhh... Is there some kind of rule about mentioning them again ? :rolleyes:

ProfessorPlum · 09-02-2014 10:10PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ireland can hardly talk when we passed a referendum to deny persons citizenship if they are born here without an Irish parent, by 80% odd in favour.

fleet wrote: »

If one is born here then one is entitled to citizenship; all that changed is that one's parents are not automatically granted it.

It was the most sensible solution to citizenship tourism.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He said a referendum was passed to deny a person citizenship if they were born without an Irish parent, the person born here does get citizenship and to state otherwise is incorrect.

Just to clarify, as there seems to be some confustion in all of the above posts:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000022

Citizenship through birth in Ireland

A person born in the island of Ireland after 1 January 2005 to parents, at least one of whom was an Irish or British citizen or entitled to reside in the State or Northern Ireland without any restrictions on his or her residence, has an entitlement of Irish citizenship. Otherwise, a person born in the island of Ireland after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship only if, during the four year period immediately preceding the person’s birth, one of the parents has been resident* in the island of Ireland for a period of not less than three years and neither parent was entitled to diplomatic immunity in the State.
* Certain residence is not reckonable, including unlawful residence, residence granted for the purpose of study and periods where there was a provisional permission to reside granted pending determination of an asylum application.

Citizenship through descent

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you are an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth (unless one of the special conditions relating to birth outside Ireland applies; these are described below). If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen. You derive citizenship through an Irish parent whether or not your parents were married to each other at the time of your birth.
If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born in Ireland, then you are an Irish citizen.
If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents were born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. You can do this by applying to your nearest Irish embassy or consular office. A list of these is available on the website of the Department of Foreign Affairs at www.dfa.ie. If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration.
If you are of the third or subsequent generation born abroad to an Irish citizen (in other words, one of your parents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents or grandparents were born in Ireland), you may be entitled to become an Irish citizen by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register; this depends on whether your parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship had himself or herself become an Irish citizen by being registered in the Foreign Births Register before you were born.
If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation.

First Up · 09-02-2014 10:18PM

Bambi wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that as far as you know means sweet f**k all in my book, lets take a look at your use of the word "voluntary"

Every irish women who gets on a plane to the UK for an abortion? Thats voluntary, so no problem there eh?

Every african who drowns crossing the Mediterranean on a smugglers boat? Voluntary too, they elected to take that risk

Every spouse who endures abuse in the home. Yup, Voluntary. They elect to stay in that situation.

So all good in your book, or were you being hugely disingenuous in your post?

Gotta be one or the other bud.

Excluding your rather baffling references to abortion and domestic abuse, yes - economic migration (as distinct from forced re-patriation, ethnic cleansing etc.) is elective. It shouldn't be necessary to acknowledge that migration is more pleasant with Etihad than clinging to the bottom of a truck, or on an overcrowded fishing boat but inasmuch as people have a choice - yes, it is voluntary.
So, had you a point?

First Up · 09-02-2014 10:24PM

Piliger wrote: »

Ehhh... Is there some kind of rule about mentioning them again ? :rolleyes:

Only it might have been polite to acknowledge they had been mentioned two posts earlier.
But for sure, we have some slow learners for company.

Dyr · 09-02-2014 10:27PM

First Up wrote: »

Excluding your rather baffling references to abortion and domestic abuse, yes - economic migration (as distinct from forced re-patriation, ethnic cleansing etc.) is elective. It shouldn't be necessary to acknowledge that migration is more pleasant with Etihad than clinging to the bottom of a truck, or on an overcrowded fishing boat but inasmuch as people have a choice - yes, it is voluntary.
So, had you a point?

I used the word "voluntary" in the same context as you did my friend, "having a choice" and "voluntary" are two whole different things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

First Up · 09-02-2014 10:45PM

Bambi wrote: »

I used the word "voluntary" in the same context as you did my friend, "having a choice" and "voluntary" are two whole different things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

Would you like the loan of a dictionary?

Dyr · 09-02-2014 11:11PM

First Up wrote: »

Would you like the loan of a dictionary?

Will websters do?

done or given because you want to and not because you are forced to : done or given by choice

You can have a look at our emigration figures during the boom as opposed to now and claim that the local citizenry suddenly decided to up sticks in huge numbers over the last few years because they wanted to

you could claim that but you'll look like an idiot or a libertarian.

Europe watches Swiss immigration vote

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