Europe watches Swiss immigration vote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26034566
Swiss voters are going to the polls on Sunday in a nationwide referendum on immigration which is being watched closely right across Europe.
The proposal, from the right-wing Swiss People's Party, calls on Switzerland to abandon its free movement of people treaty with the European Union and introduce strict quotas on immigration.
Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but has adopted large sections of EU policy, including free movement and the Schengen open-borders agreement, in order to have access to Europe's single market.
Brussels has always insisted that the Swiss will not be allowed to cherry-pick only the aspects of EU policy they like.
But its successful economy, and soaring unemployment in many eurozone countries, make Switzerland a very attractive destination.

This could be a very close run vote as early indications are the result at 50/50.

stimpson

They wouldn't be so cocky if they didn't have all that Jewish gold.

Mena

Is Europe really watching? Really?

Mena

Mena wrote: »

Is Europe really watching? Really?

Well, the BBC seem to think so, I wouldn't have known about it but for the BBC News.

Mr. Incognito

Ireland can hardly talk when we passed a referendum to deny persons citizenship if they are born here without an Irish parent, by 80% odd in favour.

Iwasfrozen

The EU is right, they shouldn't be allowed to cherry pick the aspects of the EU they want to follow. If this vote goes ahead the EU should cancel their free trade agreements.

SpaceTime

Mena wrote: »

Is Europe really watching? Really?

The EU's certainly watching as any moves the Swiss make to restrict access to EU citizens will be responded to by similar moves by the EU for Swiss nationals as it's a bilateral agreement.

wazky

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ireland can hardly talk

Since when did countries start talking?

Does Ireland have a nice D4 accent or one of them boggy ones?

Friend Computer

Good on the SVP, they've gotta keep the bloodlines pure!

fleet

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ireland can hardly talk when we passed a referendum to deny persons citizenship if they are born here without an Irish parent, by 80% odd in favour.

If one is born here then one is entitled to citizenship; all that changed is that one's parents are not automatically granted it.

It was the most sensible solution to citizenship tourism.

thecatspjs

wazky wrote: »

Since when did countries start talking?

Does Ireland have a nice D4 accent or one of them boggy ones?

Boggy

Legs.Eleven

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ireland can hardly talk when we passed a referendum to deny persons citizenship if they are born here without an Irish parent, by 80% odd in favour.

The country won't have one collective opinion on this. I don't think Ireland has said anything yet.

crockholm

My understanding of this would be that it is more of an issue in Germany,Italy and the other countries that border it,I know a German lad from around Lake Constance who does a lot of his work over the border in CH.

Our relative lack of proximity to CH means most are unaware of the vote in the first Place.

The Swiss are an hard-working and well educated population and I'm sure they will pick the best option.

They sure do love their referenda

stimpson

Friend Computer wrote: »

Good on the SVP, they've gotta keep the bloodlines pure!

I'm shocked.

St. Vincent de Paul used to be a lovely bunch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26108597
With almost all votes counted, a Swiss referendum on whether to bring back strict immigration quotas appears to have passed by a narrow margin.
Between 50.5% and 51% voted in favour of measures which would end the Swiss-EU free movement of people agreement.
Fiercely independent Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but has adopted large sections of EU policy.
Brussels has already warned the Swiss that they cannot just choose the aspects they like.

Will be interesting to see how the EU react, will they reciprocate!

SpaceTime

Deleted User wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how the EU react, will they reciprocate!

It will mostly likely simply end it as it's a bilateral agreement and the Germans amongst others are quite irritated by Swiss banking secrecy etc anyway.

conorhal

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The EU is right, they shouldn't be allowed to cherry pick the aspects of the EU they want to follow. If this vote goes ahead the EU should cancel their free trade agreements.

Why shouldn't a soverign state that's not a member of the EU be entitled to do as it pleases with it's immigration policy?

This post is typical of the Eurotrons, it doesn't take long for them to go all EUSSR and throw around dire threats to ruin a nation's economy if they don't get their way.
All the Swiss are saying is that they would like controlled immigration and they want to place limits on the numbers coming to their country, as eh pretty much any soverign nation does. The EU is not entitled to tell any soverign state how many poeple it entitled to send there.

Amirani

conorhal wrote: »

Why shouldn't a soverign state that's not a member of the EU be entitled to do as it pleases with it's immigration policy?

This post is typical of the Eurotrons, it doesn't take long for them to go all EUSSR and throw around dire threats to ruin a nation's economy if they don't get their way.
All the Swiss are saying is that they would like controlled immigration and they want to place limits on the numbers coming to their country, as eh pretty much any soverign nation does. The EU is not entitled to tell any soverign state how many poeple it entitled to send there.

Nobody's saying they shouldn't have the right to do that. However, if they do do that, they can forget about free movement of Swiss goods within the EU. What entitles Switzerland to gain far more from EU policies than it gives up unlike actual members?

SpaceTime

Well, they've every right to make that decision and they just have.
The EU's got no obligation to grant them access to anything. It's only being rather nice and accommodating so far by even agreeing to negotiate a bilateral situation in the first place.

If they're going to treat EU citizens differently, it would seem logical that the EU would simply provide the same level of access to Swiss citizens in the EU.

There's no automatic right for any non-member to have access to the EU's single market or free movement through the EU. That's not some kind of bizarre position, it's the same as any where else.

Basically, what this means is that if you're Irish, British, German, French etc etc and living in Switzerland or want to do business or trade there, a lot has just changed for you. I don't see why we should just continue to be complete door mats about it either.

There are consequences to decisions and the EU doesn't really have to do anything. The Swiss just tore up their agreement with *us*. It's not some kind of EU conspiracy against the Swiss.

Annasopra

Switzerland passed it, 50.3%...mandates the government to reintroduce quotas for EU migrant workers....no more free movement of people....a victory for the conservative right that will probably, hurt Switzerland more economically than it expects in my opinion. From talking to Irish friends living in Switzerland it seems that the reality is that there are not enough Swiss people taking the skilled technical jobs, hence the 'high' level of migration.

conorhal

NiallSparky wrote: »

Nobody's saying they shouldn't have the right to do that. However, if they do do that, they can forget about free movement of Swiss goods within the EU. What entitles Switzerland to gain far more from EU policies than it gives up unlike actual members?

And what do trade agreements have to do with the implementation of a resaonable immigration policy exactly? Where else do trade agreements get signed that require the signees to accept unlimited immigration as part of the deal?
Should we rip up any deals with the States for example because we can't just all move there en-masse if we feel like it?

The only retort that would be reasonable would be matching visa requirements for the Swiss. Linking trade to open door immigration says alot about the Eurotrons thinking.

Arthur Beesley

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ireland can hardly talk when we passed a referendum to deny persons citizenship if they are born here without an Irish parent, by 80% odd in favour.

How did you vote?

First Up

NiallSparky wrote: »

Nobody's saying they shouldn't have the right to do that. However, if they do do that, they can forget about free movement of Swiss goods within the EU. What entitles Switzerland to gain far more from EU policies than it gives up unlike actual members?

Unlikely to affect movement of goods but it could result in restriction of movement for Swiss passport holders.

Amirani

conorhal wrote: »

And what do trade agreements have to do with the implementation of a resaonable immigration policy exactly? Where else do trade agreements get signed that require the signees to accept unlimited immigration as part of the deal?
Should we rip up any deals with the States for example because we can't just all move there en-masse if we feel like it?

There's no free movement of US goods and labour in the EU.

You really need to read a bit more about the situation before you go spouting rhetoric for no good reason.

Amirani

First Up wrote: »

Unlikely to affect movement of goods but it could result in restriction of movement for Swiss passport holders.

That probably more likely, we'll have to wait and see though.

Kristopherus

conorhal wrote: »

Why shouldn't a soverign state that's not a member of the EU be entitled to do as it pleases with it's immigration policy?

This post is typical of the Eurotrons, it doesn't take long for them to go all EUSSR and throw around dire threats to ruin a nation's economy if they don't get their way.
All the Swiss are saying is that they would like controlled immigration and they want to place limits on the numbers coming to their country, as eh pretty much any soverign nation does. The EU is not entitled to tell any soverign state how many poeple it entitled to send there.

Correct. And is'nt Cameron threatening to do trhe same across the water. Will be interesting to see what attitude Brussels will have to that, if he goes ahead.
If Brussels threatens anything like they are to the Swiss, Cameron could very well say "I'm out".

SpaceTime

I honestly don't think there's all that much love of Swiss policies at EU level or at many national government level either.

It wouldn't be an entirely unreasonable position to see Switzerland as a tax haven with some rather strange banking practices that have regularly been used to frustrate EU countries (particularly Germany) when they are trying to go after all sorts of financial and banking issues.

It has been granted a huge amount of access to the EU based on an otherwise very friendly and corporative relationship. However, there's really nothing to say that the EU has to continue to be all that corporative if Switzerland isn't reciprocating.

So, I'm not sure that (particularly after the banking crisis) there'll be a huge degree of upset about their decision to walk off in a bit of a huff.

I don't really see the EU just not reacting as in any way 'bullying'.

conorhal

NiallSparky wrote: »

There's no free movement of US goods and labour in the EU.

You really need to read a bit more about the situation before you go spouting rhetoric for no good reason.

Where did I say that there was? My point is that no trade deal with the US requires accepting unlimited immigration. Goods are goods, people are people, except in the corporatist EU where people are goods.

CalRobert

fleet wrote: »

If one is born here then one is entitled to citizenship; all that changed is that one's parents are not automatically granted it.

It was the most sensible solution to citizenship tourism.

This is inaccurate; I'm here on a green card and have researched the matter out of curiosity - the child is only a citizen if the parent has three years of normal (stamp 1) residency prior to the birth.

Jus Solis was abandoned in Ireland about ten years ago, I believe.

conorhal

mango salsa wrote: »

Switzerland passed it, 50.3%...mandates the government to reintroduce quotas for EU migrant workers....no more free movement of people....a victory for the conservative right that will probably, hurt Switzerland more economically than it expects in my opinion. From talking to Irish friends living in Switzerland it seems that the reality is that there are not enough Swiss people taking the skilled technical jobs, hence the 'high' level of migration.

High, but not uncontrolled. Like Australia they will benefit from the ability to pick and choose those immigrants that are of use to their economy and reject those that aren't. Is that so controversial? The fact is they are likely to benefit from a policy of controlled immigration because they can take the wheat but won't have to support the chaff.

SpaceTime

From an Irish point of view, this is actually excellent news.

It just means we've a major selling point that the Swiss have opted to throw away and we do actually compete quite heavily with the Swiss when it comes to certain FDI projects in financial sector stuff and also in biopharma / pharma and IT.

Quick availability of a huge pool (entire EU) of technical staff and full, absolutely secure access to the world's largest market as well as being English-speaking and highly business-friendly with a similar familiar culture to the UK and US etc and a highly familiar legal system etc is actually a massive selling point.
On top of that we've extremely good air transport links, top notch international telecoms connections, proximity to London, Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt. Relatively close proximity to the Eastern US. Special agreements on pre-clearance of flights to the US (cutting time for visiting execs etc).

Add on the competitive tax regime and business-focused environment and we've quite a lot going for us.

Stinicker

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

SpaceTime

Stinicker wrote: »

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Also, on issues like that, we actually do tend to have direct democracy. Ireland's pretty referendum-orientated when it comes to those kinds of decisions. Almost every major EU decision we've taken has been by referendum.
On top of that, in the ones where we did vote twice, we did actually secure amendments / protocols and guarantees and if we wanted to we could have voted no twice too.

There is a system of extremely open PR-STV voting in Ireland that sets the bar for getting a TD into the Dail extremely low. In most countries without a party ticket, you'd have serious difficulty getting elected or even getting your name on a ballot paper, as you'd have to get onto a list in most PR systems or, get an absolute majority in a constituency in first-past-the-post.

No very right wing / xenophobic type candidates have risen through that, which to me would indicate there's likely to be very little demand for them.

On the other side of it, Irish people are generally quite aware of how free movement has helped us. We're one of the biggest availers of EU freedom of movement (as are the British btw).

Stinicker

SpaceTime wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure.
There is a system of extremely open PR-STV voting in Ireland that sets the bar for getting a TD into the Dail extremely low. In most countries without a party ticket, you'd have serious difficulty getting elected as you'd have to get onto a list in most PR systems or, get an absolute majority in a constituency in first-past-the-post.

No very right wing / xenophobic type candidates have risen through that, which to me would indicate there's likely to be very little demand for them.

Restricting access to the countries labour market in a time of massive crisis and near 50% Unemployment amongst the youth of Ireland has nothing to do with xenophobia rather it should be the bedrock of economic & social policy. It is a disgrace that thousands of young Irish have to go abroad to earn a living yet anyone from the 28 countries of the EU have the same right to employment as our own people. Irish Citizens should get preferencial treatment in our own country.

sock puppet

It's a disgrace that thousands of Irish are working abroad. They should be at home and unemployed instead.

View

conorhal wrote: »

High, but not uncontrolled. Like Australia they will benefit from the ability to pick and choose those immigrants that are of use to their economy and reject those that aren't. Is that so controversial? The fact is they are likely to benefit from a policy of controlled immigration because they can take the wheat but won't have to support the chaff.

The Swiss have torn up the agreements THEY had negotiated with the member states of the EU. That was their choice.

And the quid pro quo for that is that the member states of the EU will also enact a policy of controlled access of anything and everything Swiss to the EU.

That's the way agreements work, either both parties honour them or none of them do so.

Matt_Trakker

I wonder how it will affect all UEFA's foreign employees in Switzerland, very few UEFA staff are from Switzerland.

First Up

Stinicker wrote: »

Restricting access to the countries labour market in a time of massive crisis and near 50% Unemployment amongst the youth of Ireland has nothing to do with xenophobia rather it should be the bedrock of economic & social policy. It is a disgrace that thousands of young Irish have to go abroad to earn a living yet anyone from the 28 countries of the EU have the same right to employment as our own people. Irish Citizens should get preferencial treatment in our own country.

And is it equally a disgrace that the Irish who go abroad displace locals in those job markets?

SpaceTime

Stinicker wrote: »

Restricting access to the countries labour market in a time of massive crisis and near 50% Unemployment amongst the youth of Ireland has nothing to do with xenophobia rather it should be the bedrock of economic & social policy. It is a disgrace that thousands of young Irish have to go abroad to earn a living yet anyone from the 28 countries of the EU have the same right to employment as our own people. Irish Citizens should get preferencial treatment in our own country.

OK, so lets say you restrict access to the market to say people from the EU.

1) Call centres suddenly can't recruit native speakers. Companies decide to leave. Irish people lose jobs.

2) Let's say you're an IT company deciding where to locate. Do you pick say the Netherlands where you can pick and chose from millions of potentially highly qualified people from around the EU, or would you go to Ireland where you'd have to justify every non-Irish hire?

Result: companies opt not to invest here and companies that are here leave.

3) You're an Irish tech / engineering company competing on the global stage and against EU competitors and companies all over the world. You need to recruit someone for a project with specific skills. You can't recruit some say British or Romanian candidate without a huge level of difficulty. You lose the contract and become uncompeditive. Irish jobs lost.

4) You're an Irish company with operations around the EU (there are quite a lot of these). You suddenly can't move staff around, can't recruit people on contracts in Irish law, can't do loads of things that have been giving you a competitive edge against your EU counterparts.
Result: you shrink / close or move your base abroad and declare your Irish office a subsidiary of your Luxembourg HQ.
Result : Irish jobs lost.

....

You're taking a very simplistic view of how the real economy operates if you think that restricting EU free movement would somehow magically increase employment here.

Economic activity increases employment. We have experienced full employment with some of the most liberal freedom of movement in the entire EU back in the boom times.

We have high unemployment due to a skills vs labour market mismatch and the loss of an entire sector of the economy - i.e. construction.
Freedom of movement is all that's preventing us from not having an even worse unemployment crisis as many of those people who had those skills actually used those freedoms in Europe an left the country. I know many have gone to North America and Australia etc, but huge numbers are gone to the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

Also, many Irish companies are continuing to employ people in construction-related businesses at the higher tech level simply because they can bid for EU jobs very easily and are working across the entire EU right now.

You can't blame freedom of movement on our bad economic planning!

keeponhurling

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

I wonder how it will affect all UEFA's foreign employees in Switzerland, very few UEFA staff are from Switzerland.

i assume that people already employed out there are ok, it is only for future immigration?

I had been wondering how the Irish currently out there will get on

Stinicker

sock puppet wrote: »

It's a disgrace that thousands of Irish are working abroad. They should be at home and unemployed instead.

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

First Up

Stinicker wrote: »

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

So much wrong with that post it's hard to know where to start.

conorhal

First Up wrote: »

So much wrong with that post it's hard to know where to start.

Agreed, it's agressive use of logic and foresight is so disapointing. Still your eloquent rebuttal really showed him!

First Up

conorhal wrote: »

Agreed, it's agressive use of logic and foresight is so disapointing. Still your eloquent rebuttal really showed him!

Sufficient to leave it's multiple contradictions and inaccuracies speak for themselves.

seamus

Kristopherus wrote: »

Correct. And is'nt Cameron threatening to do trhe same across the water. Will be interesting to see what attitude Brussels will have to that, if he goes ahead.

Unlike Switzerland, the UK can't pick and choose EU policy. The UK cannot choose to restrict the movement of EU citizens within its borders. It's a fundamental part of the EU.

They only way they could restrict the movement of EU citizens would be to leave the EU. And the UK won't leave the EU. As much as they hate to admit it, the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

The shengen agreement is not the same thing. Shengen is to do with border controls. Ireland and the UK are allowed to keep their border controls, but they cannot pass laws preventing EU citizens from entering the country.

Amirani

Stinicker wrote: »

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

Why would we do that when it would drastically limit our on ability to emigrate in times of high unemployment? Despite what you might think, Ireland isn't experiencing high net inward migration at the moment, so it'd be completely pointless.

sock puppet

Stinicker wrote: »

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

The number of Europeans living in Ireland has been falling ever since the recession hit.

SpaceTime

Employed doing what exactly?

A huge % of them are construction workers and construction industry related professions!

The government can't 'magic' jobs out of nowhere and restricting immigration from the EU won't create construction jobs either.

There is a massive skills mismatch in Ireland due to the construction sector being allowed to inflate into an enormous bubble ( 1/3 of the economy.)

When that collapsed, we had a huge number of people who had orientated their entire careers to fit that part of the economy.

There are jobs here but many of those who left wouldn't be able to fill them or wouldn't want to start their careers from scratch to change industry.

None of that would be resolved by restricting EU freedom of movement. Nor was it caused by it.

If you want an explanation for Irish's unemployment, talk to Fianna Fail and co, the banks and the speculation sector.
It was caused by shortsighted economic strategies and allowing the inflation of a monumental and almost internationally unprecedented property market bubble.

Iwasfrozen

sock puppet wrote: »

The number of Europeans living in Ireland has been falling ever since the recession hit.

I would have thought the number of Europeans living in Ireland would change relatively very little seing as they make up circa 94% of the population?

First Up

SpaceTime wrote: »

Employed doing what exactly?

A huge % of them are construction workers and construction industry related professions!

The government can't 'magic' jobs out of nowhere and restricting immigration from the EU won't create construction jobs either.

There is a massive skills mismatch in Ireland due to the construction sector being allowed to inflate into an enormous bubble ( 1/3 of the economy.)

When that collapsed, we had a huge number of people who had orientated their entire careers to fit that part of the economy.

There are jobs here but many of those who left wouldn't be able to fill them or wouldn't want to start their careers from scratch to change industry.

None of that would be resolved by restricting EU freedom of movement. Nor was it caused by it.

If you want an explanation for Irish's unemployment, talk to Fianna Fail and co, the banks and the speculation sector.
It was caused by shortsighted economic strategies and allowing the inflation of a monumental and almost internationally unprecedented property market bubble.

You'll never get on the Joe Duffy programme talking sense like that.

sock puppet

SpaceTime wrote: »

Employed doing what exactly?

A huge % of them are construction workers and construction industry related professions!

The government can't 'magic' jobs out of nowhere and restricting immigration from the EU won't create construction jobs either.

There is a massive skills mismatch in Ireland due to the construction sector being allowed to inflate into an enormous bubble ( 1/3 of the economy.)

When that collapsed, we had a huge number of people who had orientated their entire careers to fit that part of the economy.

There are jobs here but many of those who left wouldn't be able to fill them or wouldn't want to start their careers from scratch to change industry.

None of that would be resolved by restricting EU freedom of movement. Nor was it caused by it.

If you want an explanation for Irish's unemployment, talk to Fianna Fail and co, the banks and the speculation sector.
It was caused by shortsighted economic strategies and allowing the inflation of a monumental and almost internationally unprecedented property market bubble.

I always spend a lot more time reading than posting on boards. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.