Europe watches Swiss immigration vote

Stinicker · 09-02-2014 05:41PM

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 05:44PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Also, on issues like that, we actually do tend to have direct democracy. Ireland's pretty referendum-orientated when it comes to those kinds of decisions. Almost every major EU decision we've taken has been by referendum.
On top of that, in the ones where we did vote twice, we did actually secure amendments / protocols and guarantees and if we wanted to we could have voted no twice too.

There is a system of extremely open PR-STV voting in Ireland that sets the bar for getting a TD into the Dail extremely low. In most countries without a party ticket, you'd have serious difficulty getting elected or even getting your name on a ballot paper, as you'd have to get onto a list in most PR systems or, get an absolute majority in a constituency in first-past-the-post.

No very right wing / xenophobic type candidates have risen through that, which to me would indicate there's likely to be very little demand for them.

On the other side of it, Irish people are generally quite aware of how free movement has helped us. We're one of the biggest availers of EU freedom of movement (as are the British btw).

Stinicker · 09-02-2014 05:48PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure.
There is a system of extremely open PR-STV voting in Ireland that sets the bar for getting a TD into the Dail extremely low. In most countries without a party ticket, you'd have serious difficulty getting elected as you'd have to get onto a list in most PR systems or, get an absolute majority in a constituency in first-past-the-post.

No very right wing / xenophobic type candidates have risen through that, which to me would indicate there's likely to be very little demand for them.

Restricting access to the countries labour market in a time of massive crisis and near 50% Unemployment amongst the youth of Ireland has nothing to do with xenophobia rather it should be the bedrock of economic & social policy. It is a disgrace that thousands of young Irish have to go abroad to earn a living yet anyone from the 28 countries of the EU have the same right to employment as our own people. Irish Citizens should get preferencial treatment in our own country.

sock puppet · 09-02-2014 05:50PM

It's a disgrace that thousands of Irish are working abroad. They should be at home and unemployed instead.

View · 09-02-2014 05:50PM

conorhal wrote: »

High, but not uncontrolled. Like Australia they will benefit from the ability to pick and choose those immigrants that are of use to their economy and reject those that aren't. Is that so controversial? The fact is they are likely to benefit from a policy of controlled immigration because they can take the wheat but won't have to support the chaff.

The Swiss have torn up the agreements THEY had negotiated with the member states of the EU. That was their choice.

And the quid pro quo for that is that the member states of the EU will also enact a policy of controlled access of anything and everything Swiss to the EU.

That's the way agreements work, either both parties honour them or none of them do so.

Matt_Trakker · 09-02-2014 05:53PM

I wonder how it will affect all UEFA's foreign employees in Switzerland, very few UEFA staff are from Switzerland.

First Up · 09-02-2014 05:53PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Restricting access to the countries labour market in a time of massive crisis and near 50% Unemployment amongst the youth of Ireland has nothing to do with xenophobia rather it should be the bedrock of economic & social policy. It is a disgrace that thousands of young Irish have to go abroad to earn a living yet anyone from the 28 countries of the EU have the same right to employment as our own people. Irish Citizens should get preferencial treatment in our own country.

And is it equally a disgrace that the Irish who go abroad displace locals in those job markets?

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 05:54PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Restricting access to the countries labour market in a time of massive crisis and near 50% Unemployment amongst the youth of Ireland has nothing to do with xenophobia rather it should be the bedrock of economic & social policy. It is a disgrace that thousands of young Irish have to go abroad to earn a living yet anyone from the 28 countries of the EU have the same right to employment as our own people. Irish Citizens should get preferencial treatment in our own country.

OK, so lets say you restrict access to the market to say people from the EU.

1) Call centres suddenly can't recruit native speakers. Companies decide to leave. Irish people lose jobs.

2) Let's say you're an IT company deciding where to locate. Do you pick say the Netherlands where you can pick and chose from millions of potentially highly qualified people from around the EU, or would you go to Ireland where you'd have to justify every non-Irish hire?

Result: companies opt not to invest here and companies that are here leave.

3) You're an Irish tech / engineering company competing on the global stage and against EU competitors and companies all over the world. You need to recruit someone for a project with specific skills. You can't recruit some say British or Romanian candidate without a huge level of difficulty. You lose the contract and become uncompeditive. Irish jobs lost.

4) You're an Irish company with operations around the EU (there are quite a lot of these). You suddenly can't move staff around, can't recruit people on contracts in Irish law, can't do loads of things that have been giving you a competitive edge against your EU counterparts.
Result: you shrink / close or move your base abroad and declare your Irish office a subsidiary of your Luxembourg HQ.
Result : Irish jobs lost.

....

You're taking a very simplistic view of how the real economy operates if you think that restricting EU free movement would somehow magically increase employment here.

Economic activity increases employment. We have experienced full employment with some of the most liberal freedom of movement in the entire EU back in the boom times.

We have high unemployment due to a skills vs labour market mismatch and the loss of an entire sector of the economy - i.e. construction.
Freedom of movement is all that's preventing us from not having an even worse unemployment crisis as many of those people who had those skills actually used those freedoms in Europe an left the country. I know many have gone to North America and Australia etc, but huge numbers are gone to the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

Also, many Irish companies are continuing to employ people in construction-related businesses at the higher tech level simply because they can bid for EU jobs very easily and are working across the entire EU right now.

You can't blame freedom of movement on our bad economic planning!

keeponhurling · 09-02-2014 06:00PM

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

I wonder how it will affect all UEFA's foreign employees in Switzerland, very few UEFA staff are from Switzerland.

i assume that people already employed out there are ok, it is only for future immigration?

I had been wondering how the Irish currently out there will get on

Stinicker · 09-02-2014 06:00PM

sock puppet wrote: »

It's a disgrace that thousands of Irish are working abroad. They should be at home and unemployed instead.

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

First Up · 09-02-2014 06:07PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

So much wrong with that post it's hard to know where to start.

conorhal · 09-02-2014 06:11PM

First Up wrote: »

So much wrong with that post it's hard to know where to start.

Agreed, it's agressive use of logic and foresight is so disapointing. Still your eloquent rebuttal really showed him!

First Up · 09-02-2014 06:18PM

conorhal wrote: »

Agreed, it's agressive use of logic and foresight is so disapointing. Still your eloquent rebuttal really showed him!

Sufficient to leave it's multiple contradictions and inaccuracies speak for themselves.

seamus · 09-02-2014 06:19PM

Kristopherus wrote: »

Correct. And is'nt Cameron threatening to do trhe same across the water. Will be interesting to see what attitude Brussels will have to that, if he goes ahead.

Unlike Switzerland, the UK can't pick and choose EU policy. The UK cannot choose to restrict the movement of EU citizens within its borders. It's a fundamental part of the EU.

They only way they could restrict the movement of EU citizens would be to leave the EU. And the UK won't leave the EU. As much as they hate to admit it, the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

The shengen agreement is not the same thing. Shengen is to do with border controls. Ireland and the UK are allowed to keep their border controls, but they cannot pass laws preventing EU citizens from entering the country.

Amirani · 09-02-2014 06:27PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

Why would we do that when it would drastically limit our on ability to emigrate in times of high unemployment? Despite what you might think, Ireland isn't experiencing high net inward migration at the moment, so it'd be completely pointless.

sock puppet · 09-02-2014 06:28PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

The number of Europeans living in Ireland has been falling ever since the recession hit.

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 06:30PM

Employed doing what exactly?

A huge % of them are construction workers and construction industry related professions!

The government can't 'magic' jobs out of nowhere and restricting immigration from the EU won't create construction jobs either.

There is a massive skills mismatch in Ireland due to the construction sector being allowed to inflate into an enormous bubble ( 1/3 of the economy.)

When that collapsed, we had a huge number of people who had orientated their entire careers to fit that part of the economy.

There are jobs here but many of those who left wouldn't be able to fill them or wouldn't want to start their careers from scratch to change industry.

None of that would be resolved by restricting EU freedom of movement. Nor was it caused by it.

If you want an explanation for Irish's unemployment, talk to Fianna Fail and co, the banks and the speculation sector.
It was caused by shortsighted economic strategies and allowing the inflation of a monumental and almost internationally unprecedented property market bubble.

Iwasfrozen · 09-02-2014 06:31PM

sock puppet wrote: »

The number of Europeans living in Ireland has been falling ever since the recession hit.

I would have thought the number of Europeans living in Ireland would change relatively very little seing as they make up circa 94% of the population?

First Up · 09-02-2014 06:41PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Employed doing what exactly?

A huge % of them are construction workers and construction industry related professions!

The government can't 'magic' jobs out of nowhere and restricting immigration from the EU won't create construction jobs either.

There is a massive skills mismatch in Ireland due to the construction sector being allowed to inflate into an enormous bubble ( 1/3 of the economy.)

When that collapsed, we had a huge number of people who had orientated their entire careers to fit that part of the economy.

There are jobs here but many of those who left wouldn't be able to fill them or wouldn't want to start their careers from scratch to change industry.

None of that would be resolved by restricting EU freedom of movement. Nor was it caused by it.

If you want an explanation for Irish's unemployment, talk to Fianna Fail and co, the banks and the speculation sector.
It was caused by shortsighted economic strategies and allowing the inflation of a monumental and almost internationally unprecedented property market bubble.

You'll never get on the Joe Duffy programme talking sense like that.

sock puppet · 09-02-2014 06:42PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Employed doing what exactly?

A huge % of them are construction workers and construction industry related professions!

The government can't 'magic' jobs out of nowhere and restricting immigration from the EU won't create construction jobs either.

There is a massive skills mismatch in Ireland due to the construction sector being allowed to inflate into an enormous bubble ( 1/3 of the economy.)

When that collapsed, we had a huge number of people who had orientated their entire careers to fit that part of the economy.

There are jobs here but many of those who left wouldn't be able to fill them or wouldn't want to start their careers from scratch to change industry.

None of that would be resolved by restricting EU freedom of movement. Nor was it caused by it.

If you want an explanation for Irish's unemployment, talk to Fianna Fail and co, the banks and the speculation sector.
It was caused by shortsighted economic strategies and allowing the inflation of a monumental and almost internationally unprecedented property market bubble.

I always spend a lot more time reading than posting on boards. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.

SpaceTime · 09-02-2014 06:47PM

sock puppet wrote: »

I always spend a lot more time reading than posting on boards. Perhaps you should consider doing the same.

Some of us are tired, sightly dyslexic and posting on a mobile.

Dyr · 09-02-2014 07:01PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Why would we do that when it would drastically limit our on ability to emigrate in times of high unemployment? Despite what you might think, Ireland isn't experiencing high net inward migration at the moment, so it'd be completely pointless.

What were our immigration figures like last year? Just out of curiosity

Amirani · 09-02-2014 07:03PM

Bambi wrote: »

What were our immigration figures like last year? Just out of curiosity

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/

33,100 more left the country than moved in.

It's been 6 years since immigration has significantly exceeded emigration. I don't see the logic whatsoever in Ireland attempting to implement immigration controls like some posters have suggested.

Nodin · 09-02-2014 07:11PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Most Irish people are working outside of continental Europe in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States and closer to home in the UK a country Irish citizens always had free movement into ever before the EU was dreamed up. All of these countries (except UK) restrict immigration to highly skilled workers and keep out unskilled lower end workers who are a drain on the economy. This is what the Swiss have decided to do and I applaud them for it.

In Ireland we also restrict Visa's to non-EU citizens unless they are highly skilled and wealthy to come to the country. However we have absolutely massive unemployment in Ireland and we have plenty of under-skilled low end Irish people in Ireland who today cannot find a menial job because of unrestrained immigration into Ireland from the EU. Despite the huge economic crisis here immigrants still arrive in Ireland and get low paid jobs while native Irish citizens remain languishing on the Dole queues costing the country over €10bn a year.

If we stopped inward immigration from the EU and create an Irish first approach then thousands of Irish could finally find employment in our own country and save the taxpayers huge sums of money. Inward unskilled immigration into Ireland is actually a massive drain on the states finances because the state is having to support more people on unemployment payments due to less jobs than people being available.

Amazing. There are a few hundred thousand Irish people working across western Europe. What are you going to do when they no longer have access to that labour market?

Chinasea · 09-02-2014 07:16PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Such a referendum is badly needed in Ireland and if we had such direct democracy then it would pass by a huge majority here.

a huge majority of what?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dyr · 09-02-2014 07:27PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/

33,100 more left the country than moved in.

It's been 6 years since immigration has significantly exceeded emigration. I don't see the logic whatsoever in Ireland attempting to implement immigration controls like some posters have suggested.

Because, according to your link, 50 thousand irish people left this country last year, while 40 thousand non irish people came here in the same period.

Would be nice to try keep the citizens of the country in situ

jmcc · 09-02-2014 07:28PM

Nodin wrote: »

Amazing. There are a few hundred thousand Irish people working across western Europe. What are you going to do when they no longer have access to that labour market?

Make them moderators on Boards.ie? Give them quango jobs? The Swiss seem to have voted for quotas on immigration. That's against the whole EU multi-culti paradise view from Brussels but Switzerland is actually multi-cultural so the EUnuchs must be rather upset at this paradox.

But what should be more worrying for EUnuchs is that this might also find an expression in the EU parliament elections where Euroskeptic votes might elect people who might not be as pro-Brussels as the current bunch.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 09-02-2014 07:30PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2013/

33,100 more left the country than moved in.

It's been 6 years since immigration has significantly exceeded emigration. I don't see the logic whatsoever in Ireland attempting to implement immigration controls like some posters have suggested.

Simple question: how many of those emigrating were Irish and how many immigrating to Ireland were really Irish people returning?

Regards...jmcc

Legs.Eleven · 09-02-2014 07:34PM

Nodin wrote: »

Amazing. There are a few hundred thousand Irish people working across western Europe. What are you going to do when they no longer have access to that labour market?

Exactly. I'm thinking of all the Irish in England, for starters. 90% of my friends living in foreign countries live in other European countries, myself included. I'd have to come home and do what exactly? It wouldn't pass as we know we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we did.

Amirani · 09-02-2014 07:38PM

Bambi wrote: »

Because, according to your link, 50 thousand irish people left this country last year, while 40 thousand non irish people came here in the same period.

Would be nice to try keep the citizens of the country in situ

That's sort of the point of having free movement of labour, people can move based on their skill-sets. I can guarantee you that loads of the Irish emigrants are construction workers, while plenty of the non-Irish immigrants are tech workers. There's absolutely no point in keeping construction workers in the country sitting on the dole when there's free IT jobs and no construction jobs.

Europe watches Swiss immigration vote

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