"Irish Language part of the Republican Agenda" according to Orange Order

guttenberg wrote: »

I think you've just covered his point. Northern Ireland is a separate entity from Britain, so can NI be classed as British? wouldn't "United Kingdomers" be more apt?

I think the official term is UKzies

GaelMise wrote: »

Well apparently not too much damage has been done or else we would not be seeing the growth of interest in learning Irish in Loyalist east Belfast and the opening of an Irish centre there.

Lets be clear here, the OO statement was not prompted by nationalist politisation of the language, it was prompted by fear of the growing interest in learning Irish in Unionist areas.

Not everyone in east Belfast is loyalist and just because there's a language center there doesn't mean a) the locals support it or b) loyalists are speaking Irish in enough numbers to scare the oo. Yur mans off the cuff remark could have been exactly that.

I'm not saying you're wrong but you're making too many assumptions to draw conclusions.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not everyone in east Belfast is loyalist and just because there's a language center there doesn't mean a) the locals support it or b) loyalists are speaking Irish in enough numbers to scare the oo. Yur mans off the cuff remark could have been exactly that.

I'm not saying you're wrong but you're making too many assumptions to draw conclusions.

I'm making asumptions am I?
Linda Ervine, wife of former Progressive Unionist Party leader Brian Ervine, and developent officer at the new east belfast Irish language centre had this to say in response to the OO Grand Master's statement

"I wish he would come and address them to us, I'd love him to come and visit our centre because I think it would be a real wake-up call for him.


"You come into our classroom and you have members of the DUP, members of Alliance, members of the UUP, members of the PUP all learning Irish."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26004137

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Who was it that said " A language is a dialect with an army" ?

The Boord o Ulstér-Scotch?
http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/what-is-ulster-scots/language/

Max Weinreich, one of the leading figures in modern Yiddish linguistics, makes essentially the same point: ‘A language is a dialect with an army and navy’.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I haven't denied there are loyalists genuinely interested in speaking English and your post did not address either of the two assumptions I accused you of making.

Right, the centre was opened as a direct responce to a growth in interest in Irish classes in the area over the last number of years.
As we can see from what Mrs Ervine had to say in the post above, these classes are populated by active Unionists.

Development officer Linda Ervine said a growing interest in the language had led to the need to expand.
Ms Ervine said a "taster" Irish class held three years ago had revealed a surprising level of interest in the language.
"We started a regular class two years ago which was meant to last for 15 weeks," she said.
"At present, there are eight weekly classes held in the Skainos centre.
"We had to expand to cope with the increasing numbers. Now, around 90% of our learners are Protestants.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25654557

Now accuse me of jumping to conclusions if you like, but the above suggests to me that there is a growing interest in Irish amongst the local community in east Belfast.


Interestingly the Orange Order has distanced itself from the comments of its Belfast Grand Master.

“I’ve spoken to a few people in the Orange Order overnight who have expressed an interest in learning, as they have taken exception to what was said.”
A statement from the Orange Order said throughout the history of the institution Orangemen “have been fluent, or familiar” in the use of the Irish language, adding that it has “no formal policy or guidelines” for members regarding learning it and that “such a decision is a matter of individual conscience”.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/visit-our-irish-class-in-loyal-east-belfast-challenge-to-orange-chief-who-hit-out-at-language-29973255.html

I would also like to see you address my original point that this statement by the oo is a natural reaction to the politicisation of the language by republicans "every word in Irish is a bullet" and that steps will need to be taken by nationalists on both sides of the border in order to return the languages neutrality.

Yes, the republicen movement did tend to treat the Irish Language as their property in the past, and it was supported in this by the unionist movement, it should be noted however that the Irish Language movement and the republicen movement are not one and the same, and while leading republicens and unionists have had this tendancy in the past, the same is not true of the Irish Language movement itself.

The point is that the language does not belong to nationalists, it is not theirs to return to neutrality. Indeed Republicens and Unionists should stop trying to make Irish the language of one community only, but regardless of what they do, it does not take away from the fact that Irish is part of the joint herritage of all people on this island north and south, regardless of politics.

COYW wrote: »

I was referring to posts like this one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86063343&postcount=107

Kirpatricio's contribution in that thread is asinine.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

One protestant makes you think that? Any unionists I've met have been utterly lovely people, some of whom live in the republic (they're mad for Kinsale and West Cork are the unionists :pac:). There's a mistaken view that unionist = sectarian bigot. As with any people, it's only the hardliners who are the ones worth condemning, or even better: not worth paying any heed to.
The unionist people whom I know have about as much time for loyalist paramilitaries and hardline orange folks as they have for the IRA.

He clearly said Orange Order, ie the hardline orange folks that the Unionist people have no time for.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nice ad hominem there, sure sign of a weak argument. Or a sure sign of republicans hijacking the Irish language, or both.

The speaking of Irish by the Irish has never been banned, the statute of Kilkenny banned the speaking of it by English people. Poynings law in 1494 repealed this law anyway.

Teaching of Irish in national schools was prohibited, but allowed from 1871 onwards, but even after that date most schools continued to teach in English. As I said, even Daniel O'Connel encouraged people to learn English.

The people who generally claim it was da nasty Brita that killed the language are usually republicans who are either to stupid or too lazy to learn it properly themselves.

The irony, of course, from the OP perspective, is that protestants played a significant role in the revival of the language and, of course, the Church of Ireland has had Irish hymns and prayer books since the eighteenth century.

David Ervine ffs, cop on will you.

Sorry lad, that the English and later British state activly persued a policy of anglicisation in Ireland is beyond dispute.
State policy was not the only factor in the language shift that occured, but to suggest that it was not state policy is to delude yourself.

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

The revival of the Irish language in the late 19th and early 20th century was part of the Irish Republican agenda. One could argue it still is, in an idealist sort of way.

So was Universial Sufferage, does that mean that you cannot be in favour of everyone having the vote today without being a republicen?

The question is, even if the above is true, whats your point?