The Hazards of Belief

robindch · 28-01-2014 05:49PM

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is looking into circumcision. Religious leaders said it was fine. Medical staff, mostly, said it wasn't.

http://intactnews.org/node/422/1390925710/experts-religious-leaders-and-activists-square-council-europe039s-circumcision-d

Turtwig · 28-01-2014 05:52PM

Don't worry they'll find medical doctors who say it's fine.

The Black Oil · 28-01-2014 09:40PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Btp2MZONow

Interview here (16 minutes) with Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom about some of the religious antics going on in the US military. Interestingly, some of his clients are Christian and don't like what they see.

the_eman · 28-01-2014 11:55PM

pauldla wrote: »

You prefer the 'impossibly old man builds impossibly large ship to save an impossibly large number of animals from an impossibly big flood sent by a disturbingly capricious and punitive deity' theory, I take it?

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

Bannasidhe · 29-01-2014 12:04AM

the_eman wrote: »

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

Annnnd here are 'resources' that discuss the writer of the 'resource' your linky brings us to...http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/dr_jonathan_sarfati.htm

Tell me... in your experience do degrees in Chemistry usually deal with boat building, climatology, archaeology etc etc etc?

kylith · 29-01-2014 12:23AM

the_eman wrote: »

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

The word 'impossibly' is accurate, the ship could not have been that big, it could not possibly have held a minimum of two of all earth's animals, a flood that covers the entire planet could not have happened, and Noah was not 900 at the time.

There is no way in hell, or Earth, or anywhere else that a boat that size made of wood could either hold together under its own weight or successfully navigate a body of water. Also, the technology to build a boat capable of holding more than 8.4 million pairs of animals*, plus food, plus water, for more than a month was not available in the bronze age, and probably still isn't today. Coupled with that we have the problem that 1 breeding pair of each animal is nowhere near a sustainable gene pool and that all the animals would have died out through inbreeding within a couple of generations.

The site you gave listed the length of the ark as 140m. The longest wooden ship ever built was called the Wyoming, was 100m in length, and had to have the hold continuously pumped out because of the amount of water let in by the planking, so I would very much doubt that a farmer was able to build a boat 40% bigger' from lumber he found lying around the Middle East, using an adze, with no pumping equipment available, three thousand years earlier.

If you can come up with any scientific reason as to why I'm incorrect; i.e. not taken from creation.org or a similar page, I'd love to see it.

*Taking a conservative estimate.

pauldla · 29-01-2014 04:40AM

the_eman wrote: »

Remove the word impossibly and I agree.

There are loads of resources describing how a boat that size could carry that amount of animals.

http://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ark

So you're down with the 'disturbingly capricious and punitive deity' bit, then?

Sorry, I had to, so beautifully marked, and downwind as well.

Gordon · 29-01-2014 06:31AM

Never understood why creationists don't just say that their god simply shrunk the animals. If it can murder every non-ark baby, adult, child, old person and animal by creating underground jets of water and enough rain out of thin air to raise the sea level drastically, then just magic the animals smaller. Or for that matter, just magic the sinners away. Or just magic another solution.

Pherekydes · 29-01-2014 08:22AM

kylith wrote: »

...and Noah was not 900 at the time.

Pffft. Noah was only 600 when he began his little DIY project. So still in his prime.

Sure didn't Gandalf reach 2000 years of age?

Penn · 29-01-2014 08:43AM

Gordon wrote: »

Never understood why creationists don't just say that their god simply shrunk the animals. If it can murder every non-ark baby, adult, child, old person and animal by creating underground jets of water and enough rain out of thin air to raise the sea level drastically, then just magic the animals smaller. Or for that matter, just magic the sinners away. Or just magic another solution.

That's the ultimate argument against Noah's Ark imo. You point out all the animals couldn't fit on the boat, they point out God can do anything so could have made it happen, you point out that if God can do anything, why did he need to cause the flood in the first place?

Anything after that just highlights the crazy reasoning creationists will resort to to try and justify something just because they can't fathom the possibility that they're wrong.

the_eman · 29-01-2014 10:17AM

Penncil Dick wrote: »

That's the ultimate argument against Noah's Ark imo. You point out all the animals couldn't fit on the boat, they point out God can do anything so could have made it happen, you point out that if God can do anything, why did he need to cause the flood in the first place?

Anything after that just highlights the crazy reasoning creationists will resort to to try and justify something just because they can't fathom the possibility that they're wrong.

God gave free will, people make a mess, God corrects.

The Ark was large enough for all the animals.

Gordon · 29-01-2014 10:25AM

the_eman wrote: »

God gave free will, people make a mess, God corrects.

So did the original people that your god created out of thin air evolve into sinners, and therefore your god wiped out the bad genes by process of his selection thereby ensuring only the Moses gene pool existed? If not, what is to stop messers from being born now, and if that happens, what was the point of killing innocent babies if there are still people making a mess in this world now?

Penn · 29-01-2014 10:42AM

the_eman wrote: »

God gave free will, people make a mess, God corrects.

Okay, so God realises everyone bar Noah and his family have messed up and need to be removed.

So his plan is for Noah to spend years of his life building a giant ark to house millions of animals. Assuming that were possible, which it isn't as the size of the boat is clearly mentioned in the Bible and isn't big enough for all the animals, meaning God would have had to shrink the animals or make the Ark into the Tardis from Doctor Who or something, but assuming that were true, God then proceeds to flood the Earth, killing everyone and all the other animals (who did nothing wrong).

Why couldn't God have just killed all the people instead? Click of the fingers, remove them from existence. *Click* - Gone.

Why couldn't he have made them dissolve back into clay, like how he originally created Adam but in reverse?

How the hell was the Ark his best solution? Why did God purposefully (considering he has the ability to achieve the same result with as little pain to those he's killing as possible) choose instead to make them all drown? Why did God KILL everyone on the planet?

He wanted to get rid of wickedness and sin. So he killed everyone? And there's STILL wickedness and sin in the world?

God done f*cked up.

Cabaal · 29-01-2014 11:07AM

Penncil Dick wrote: »

He wanted to get rid of wickedness and sin. So he killed everyone? And there's STILL wickedness and sin in the world?

God done f*cked up.

Yep, ****ed up,
But you know what else it all proves, god is very very far from all powerful

Infact he's a bad planner and has as much power as man does, after all as a race we are also capable of wiping out everything on our planet....not a good plan but we can do it

Delirium · 29-01-2014 11:10AM

Stephen Hawking’s Blunder on Black Holes Shows Danger of Listening to Scientists, Says Bachmann

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Dr. Stephen Hawking’s recent statement that the black holes he famously described do not actually exist underscores “the danger inherent in listening to scientists,” Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minnesota) said today.

Rep. Bachmann unleashed a blistering attack on Dr. Hawking, who earlier referred to his mistake on black holes as his “biggest blunder.”

“Actually, Dr. Hawking, our biggest blunder as a society was ever listening to people like you,” said Rep. Bachmann. “If black holes don’t exist, then other things you scientists have been trying to foist on us probably don’t either, like climate change and evolution.”

Rep. Bachmann added that all the students who were forced to learn about black holes in college should now sue Dr. Hawking for a full refund. “Fortunately for me, I did not take any science classes in college,” she said.

There's a shocker! :P

Cabaal · 29-01-2014 12:19PM

“Actually, Dr. Hawking, our biggest blunder as a society was ever listening to people like you,” said Rep. Bachmann. “If black holes don’t exist, then other things you scientists have been trying to foist on us probably don’t either, like climate change and evolution.”

Or gravity!
****en scientists, holding me down, telling what I can't do, stopping me from flying!

Pherekydes · 29-01-2014 12:28PM

She really comes across as the dimmest of a really dim shower. She glories in wallowing in her ignorance.

PopePalpatine · 29-01-2014 12:57PM

I want to whack her in the face with an Junior Cert-level science textbook.

mikhail · 29-01-2014 03:02PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I want to whack her in the face with an Junior Cert-level science textbook.

Let's not resort to violence, even the theoretical kind.

That said, every time I hear that woman quoted, my opinion of humanity diminishes a little more.

Brian Shanahan · 29-01-2014 05:37PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

Interestingly, some of his clients are Christian and don't like what they see.

Of course, a lot more christians use their brains than don't. We've Czarcasm in this neck of the woods for example.

Brian Shanahan · 29-01-2014 06:00PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Pffft. Noah was only 600 when he began his little DIY project. So still in his prime.

Sure didn't Gandalf reach 2000 years of age?

That's nothing, I personally am older than the universe.

Brian Shanahan · 29-01-2014 06:06PM

the_eman wrote: »

God gave free will

How does this square with the twin assertions made many times in the Bible that god is omnipotent and omniscient?

Leave aside the fact for a moment that omnipotence and omniscience are mutually impossible. We'll get to them if you can answer the first question.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-01-2014 10:41PM

SW wrote: »

Stephen Hawking’s Blunder on Black Holes Shows Danger of Listening to Scientists, Says Bachmann

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Dr. Stephen Hawking’s recent statement that the black holes he famously described do not actually exist underscores “the danger inherent in listening to scientists,” Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minnesota) said today.

Hawking did not say that they do not exist. He conceded a bet in 2004 in relation to the Black hole information paradox. But you wouldn't really expect Bachmann to get that right, would you?

Sarky · 30-01-2014 01:23AM

She's so dense it's a wonder any light escapes her surface.

Yeah. I went there.

MrPudding · 30-01-2014 12:14PM

Oh dear...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25943051

MrP

PopePalpatine · 30-01-2014 02:13PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

How does this square with the twin assertions made many times in the Bible that god is omnipotent and omniscient?

Leave aside the fact for a moment that omnipotence and omniscience are mutually impossible. We'll get to them if you can answer the first question.

Omnipotence is impossible on its own:

Brian Shanahan · 30-01-2014 03:12PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Omnipotence is impossible on its own:
<snip, pic is waaaaaay too widescreeeeeeeeen>

I was hoping eman would answer, so as later I could spring stuff like this on him.

robindch · 30-01-2014 03:40PM

Priest: Here, yizzer reading the bible all wrong. The bible isn't "true" in the true sense of, uh, "true". If yiz know what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htxOjJHB5-8

the_eman · 30-01-2014 05:06PM

This may help you understand how something constructed with divine help is better, stronger and lasts longer. (please... no toilet paper references...)

Two mysteries surround the spiral staircase in the Loretto Chapel: the identity of its builder and the physics of its construction.

When the Loretto Chapel was completed in 1878, there was no way to access the choir loft twenty-two feet above. Carpenters were called in to address the problem, but they all concluded access to the loft would have to be via ladder as a staircase would interfere with the interior space of the small Chapel.

Legend says that to find a solution to the seating problem, the Sisters of the Chapel made a novena to St. Joseph, the patron saint of carpenters. On the ninth and final day of prayer, a man appeared at the Chapel with a donkey and a toolbox looking for work. Months later, the elegant circular staircase was completed, and the carpenter disappeared without pay or thanks. After searching for the man (an ad even ran in the local newspaper) and finding no trace of him, some concluded that he was St. Joseph himself, having come in answer to the sisters' prayers.

The stairway's carpenter, whoever he was, built a magnificent structure. The design was innovative for the time and some of the design considerations still perplex experts today.

The staircase has two 360 degree turns and no visible means of support. Also, it is said that the staircase was built without nails—only wooden pegs. Questions also surround the number of stair risers relative to the height of the choir loft and about the types of wood and other materials used in the stairway's construction.

Over the years many have flocked to the Loretto Chapel to see the Miraculous Staircase. The staircase has been the subject of many articles, TV specials, and movies including "Unsolved Mysteries" and the television movie titled "The Staircase."

http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html

For some video on this FF to 23:45 in this.

33 steps...

Bannasidhe · 30-01-2014 06:58PM

the_eman wrote: »

This may help you understand how something constructed with divine help is better, stronger and lasts longer. (please... no toilet paper references...)

Two mysteries surround the spiral staircase in the Loretto Chapel: the identity of its builder and the physics of its construction.

When the Loretto Chapel was completed in 1878, there was no way to access the choir loft twenty-two feet above. Carpenters were called in to address the problem, but they all concluded access to the loft would have to be via ladder as a staircase would interfere with the interior space of the small Chapel.

Legend says that to find a solution to the seating problem, the Sisters of the Chapel made a novena to St. Joseph, the patron saint of carpenters. On the ninth and final day of prayer, a man appeared at the Chapel with a donkey and a toolbox looking for work. Months later, the elegant circular staircase was completed, and the carpenter disappeared without pay or thanks. After searching for the man (an ad even ran in the local newspaper) and finding no trace of him, some concluded that he was St. Joseph himself, having come in answer to the sisters' prayers.

The stairway's carpenter, whoever he was, built a magnificent structure. The design was innovative for the time and some of the design considerations still perplex experts today.

The staircase has two 360 degree turns and no visible means of support. Also, it is said that the staircase was built without nails—only wooden pegs. Questions also surround the number of stair risers relative to the height of the choir loft and about the types of wood and other materials used in the stairway's construction.

Over the years many have flocked to the Loretto Chapel to see the Miraculous Staircase. The staircase has been the subject of many articles, TV specials, and movies including "Unsolved Mysteries" and the television movie titled "The Staircase."

http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html

For some video on this FF to 23:45 in this.

33 steps...

Tell me - is the carpenter described as being of Middle Eastern extraction?

The Hazards of Belief

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