First-grader told to stop talking about Bible

Peregrinus · 17-01-2014 03:29PM

Do you classify all texts as fact or fiction? And, if so, do you put all texts which make philosophical claims in the "fiction" section of your library? Cause, you know, it's the nature of philosophical claims that they can't be proven as factual. Are all your poetry books in the fiction section? All your texts advocating human rights, or equality, or a woman's right to choose? None of those things can be "proven as factual".

There's a huge variety of literary genres; fiction is just one. The notion that any text making an assertion which cannot be "proven as factual" should be classed as fiction is just bizarre. And the implication, in this context, that a text so classed should be dismissed is not just bizarre; it's downright sinister.

Cabaal · 17-01-2014 03:49PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do you classify all texts as fact or fiction? And, if so, do you put all texts which make philosophical claims in the "fiction" section of your library? Cause, you know, it's the nature of philosophical claims that they can't be proven as factual. Are all your poetry books in the fiction section? All your texts advocating human rights, or equality, or a woman's right to choose? None of those things can be "proven as factual".

There's a huge variety of literary genres; fiction is just one. The notion that any text making an assertion which cannot be "proven as factual" should be classed as fiction is just bizarre. And the implication, in this context, that a text so classed should be dismissed is not just bizarre; it's downright sinister.

if you take that line then the only correct answer for the teacher to give is, its a religious text. Nothing more.

Peregrinus · 17-01-2014 05:41PM

Cabaal wrote: »

if you take that line then the only correct answer for the teacher to give is, its a religious text. Nothing more.

Why "nothing more"? Can a religious text have no literary genre? Can a religious text not be, say, poetry? Or exegesis? Or apocalyptic literature? Or allegory? Or song lyrics?

Czarcasm · 17-01-2014 05:56PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why "nothing more"? Can a religious text have no literary genre? Can a religious text not be, say, poetry? Or exegesis? Or apocalyptic literature? Or allegory? Or song lyrics?

I imagine Cabaal means a teacher shouldn't need to get into a religious philosophical discussion with a student when the school has a secular ethos. A student trying to get up a teacher's nose is hardly anything newsworthy.

Turtwig · 18-01-2014 01:18AM

Closing this mess.

Edit: Normally if a mod forgets to infract to a user that user stays the heck out of the limelight. Instead, Piliger got my attention in two other threads aswell! Bizarre. Anyway, Piliger has been giving one week cooling period.

Edit: Edit: Several petty sniping posts deleted. Thread reopened. Please, keep it civil and somewhat relevant. Thanks.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-01-2014 02:12AM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

There is a logical thought process through the LOTR series

Because even mythological or science fiction has to be grounded in some sort of logic and rules*. People (and editors) just won't accept it if you (a) make up any nonsensical **** universe you like and then (b) have any sort of nonsensical **** happen. You could get away with (a) or (b) but not both.

* Cue LOTR, Trek, D&D, Dr Who, etc. etc. etc. pedants who make biblical fundies look rational :pac:

(most of, Tolkien was weak when writing female roles)

So was god, it appears.

ArrahShure · 18-01-2014 02:36AM

reminds me of Dr Carter in Donnie Darko
"Uh. I'm... not going to be able to continue this conversation"
"Why?"
"I could lose my job"

pauldla · 18-01-2014 05:08AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why "nothing more"? Can a religious text have no literary genre? Can a religious text not be, say, poetry? Or exegesis? Or apocalyptic literature? Or allegory? Or song lyrics?

Well, in fairness, what more do you want? To say that a given text is religious is to say that it is venerated by many as containing information from, or relating to, a deity, is it not? To attempt to classify it as either 'fact' or 'fiction' is, as you alluded yourself previously, a false dichotomy. It may contain a variety of styles and genres, but it's rarely obviously apparent which is fact and which fiction. As such, they are, as stated above, in a class of their own i.e. religious texts.

Brian Shanahan · 18-01-2014 04:08PM

ninja900 wrote: »

Because even mythological or science fiction has to be grounded in some sort of logic and rules*. People (and editors) just won't accept it if you (a) make up any nonsensical **** universe you like and then (b) have any sort of nonsensical **** happen. You could get away with (a) or (b) but not both.

No wonder everybody hated both Voyager and Enterprise.

Re god being weak when writing women, he was weak when writing everyone. Can you name a single biblical character with the emotional depth or human complexity of a cardboard cut-out of Justin Bieber? Because I can't.

the_monkey · 23-01-2014 10:02AM

only sad thing about this is the brain washing/child abuse that kid is enduring at home having whackjobs like that as parents.

J C · 23-01-2014 11:57PM

the_monkey wrote: »

only sad thing about this is the brain washing/child abuse that kid is enduring at home having whackjobs like that as parents.

I see that we're back to more 'child abuse' accusations being levelled at good Christian parents again!!!
Please stop making unfounded prejudicial sectarian comments against people of faith with whom you disagree.

... and what's this sinister fixation about religion being 'child abuse' all about anyway?
... is it a case of throwing enough mud and expecting some of it to stick??

... and getting back to the topic of the thread, I think it is quite outrageous that any child should be censored for talking about their faith ... especially when all of the children had been asked to do so:-

wrote:

"The incident occurred Dec. 19 inside a first grade classroom at Helen Hunt-Jackson Elementary School in Temecula, Calif. The previous day the teacher instructed boys and girls to find something at home that represented a family Christmas tradition. They were supposed to bring the item to school and share the item in a classroom presentation.

Brynn Williams decided to bring the Star of Bethlehem that adorned the top of her family’s Christmas tree. She also worked on a one minute presentation to explain that her family’s tradition is to remember the birth of Jesus at Christmas time.

“Our Christmas tradition is to put a star on top of our tree,” the little girl said. “The star is named the Star of Bethlehem. The three kings followed the star to find baby Jesus, the Savior of the world.”

Before the child could utter another word, the teacher intervened, according to Robert Tyler, the general counsel for Advocates for Faith & Freedom – the law firm representing the Williams family.

“Brynn’s teacher said, ‘Stop right there! Go take your seat,’” Tyler said. “Brynn was not allowed to finish her presentation by reciting the Bible verse, John 3:16.”

... and this is supposed to be freedom of religion???

Is this what Christians are facing in this country as well, if the people, who support this type of censorship, get their 'pseudo-liberal' way?

DJumbo brekfast roll · 24-01-2014 01:14AM

Ned Flanders: Let's thank the Lord for another beautiful day.
Superintendent Chalmers: "Thank the Lord"? That sounded like a prayer. A prayer in a public school. God has no place within these walls, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion.

robindch · 24-01-2014 10:12AM

J C wrote: »

... and what's this sinister fixation about religion being 'child abuse' all about anyway?

While I disagree with the term "abuse" which has unpleasant overtones, it's still both disgraceful and dishonest that parents will willfully lie to their children about the world, when they're too young and too naive to be able to defend themselves against the dishonesty.

It would be better to refer to it as an abuse of trust, or emotional and intellectual abuse.

miss no stars · 24-01-2014 01:13PM

Storm in a teacup and very badly handled.

Let's try to remember the child is only six years old.

The teacher should have said something along the lines of "Hey Brynn, could you just hold up there a second and come over to my desk? I have a question for you"

Then the teacher could have found out what she planned to say, shown her how to change it so that she wasn't reciting directly and was just informing people of her family tradition (it was only a 1 minute speech), sent her to her desk to write out what she wanted to say and brought her up after the next child. Instead he was curt with a kid who didn't understand what she had done wrong and why she wasn't allowed talk about her family traditions but everyone else was.

I can really understand why people are upset over this, she's just a kid. She was asked to bring in something about her family traditions at Christmas and she did. Christmas is very much intertwined with Christianity and the birth of Christ. That's well recognized. It's also a time for family and mid-winter celebration, but it's hard to deny the Christian involvement in Christmas! Hence why it's celebrated in countries that are traditionally Christian but not in those that traditionally aren't.

The fault here lies with the teacher. He was right to stop her but absolutely wrong in how he went about it. I feel sorry for the kid. Not for the parents, but for the kid.

The Black Oil · 24-01-2014 11:15PM

I am often I suspicious of how these stories are picked up, particularly when on organisation like Advocates for Faith and Freedom get on board. Seems a touch convenient. They seem little more than outrage fodder cheered on by the likes of Fox News, and there may be more going on than what's reported. Teacher may have messed up, but let's take it easy with the persecution card.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-01-2014 11:42PM

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

/thread

pauldla · 25-01-2014 07:42AM

ninja900 wrote: »

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

/thread

OP hasn't had much to say on the matter, either.

Knasher · 29-01-2014 10:23PM

Update on this story at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/another-religious-right-tale-anti-christian-victimization-gets-thoroughly-debunked

Apparently the guy who reported on this for Fox News has a habit of making stuff up to fit a Christian persecution narrative.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-perry-fox-news-and-religious-right-activists-jump-fabricated-case-christian-persecution

Czarcasm · 29-01-2014 10:48PM

Knasher wrote: »

Update on this story at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/another-religious-right-tale-anti-christian-victimization-gets-thoroughly-debunked

Apparently the guy who reported on this for Fox News has a habit of making stuff up to fit a Christian persecution narrative.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-perry-fox-news-and-religious-right-activists-jump-fabricated-case-christian-persecution

Hands up anyone who thought the story in the OP was true in the first place...

Anyone? :pac:

Cabaal · 30-01-2014 11:07AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Hands up anyone who thought the story in the OP was true in the first place...

Anyone? :pac:

JC and BB might have? :pac:

PopePalpatine · 30-01-2014 12:39PM

J C probably still believes it. :rolleyes:

Piliger · 30-01-2014 12:56PM

ninja900 wrote: »

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

The school and the teachers directly involved had to release their own statement - making it absolutely clear that these claims never ever happened.

From http://www.rawstory.com/

"“Over the past week, I have received countless phone calls and 126 mean-spirited emails from across the country as a result of the claims that the Advocates of Faith and Freedom have made against one of my teachers, the school district, and myself,” said Principal Ami Paradise. “These claims are simply not true.”
“At no time did I ever tell the student that she could not read the bottom section [of her statement] because it was a Bible verse nor did she ask if she could finish,” said teacher Tammy Williams. “I never told her to ‘Stop right there!’ or ‘Go take your seat!’ or reprimand her in front of the class for sharing from the Bible. It just did not happen.”

Paradise said she met with the following day with the girl’s parents, who were upset because they thought she was unable to finish her presentation because of its biblical content.

The principal said neither parent claimed bullying or humiliation by teachers, which she said was made up by the religious legal group, and she has not heard from the parents since presenting her findings about the incident Dec. 24 to the school board.

Paradise said she stood behind the teacher, and both she and Williams complained that Tyler and his group had misrepresented the incident and damaged their reputations.

“What saddens me is that this story was twisted into lies and brought to the media,” Williams said. “I have never sat down and discussed this directly with the family or the student. I am instead being used to push an agenda for the Advocates for Faith and Freedom.”

The Black Oil · 30-01-2014 04:42PM

Not surprising. Can a 6 year old even lift a bible? I don't recall having them in primary school, but in RE in secondary they were doorstopper size.

Czarcasm · 30-01-2014 05:23PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

Not surprising. Can a 6 year old even lift a bible? I don't recall having them in primary school, but in RE in secondary they were doorstopper size.

A six year old could lift one alright, even memorize passages from it, in Latin...

Whether they actually have the mental development capacity to actually understand what they're reading though is another question entirely...

J C · 01-02-2014 09:18AM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

J C probably still believes it. :rolleyes:

Still believes what?
The most interesting thing to come out of all of this is the advocacy of teachers in general acting as 'religious censors' and 'thought police' on this thread.
It seems that a First Grader in Ireland will be prevented from talking about their faith and the Bible will be banned in any school controlled by people with a wordview similar to those on this thread.
This illiberal view of Secularism (as an exclusive anti-religious movement rather than an inclusive cherishing of all faiths and none viewpoint) ... seems to be where the posters on this thread are heading, if they are not already there. I'm open to correction on this ... but it does seem that Secularism is being defined by you guys as anti-religious rather than areligious and therefore tolerant of the expression of all faiths and none.

It's quite ironic that I appear to be the only Liberal Secularist on this thread ... believing as I do, that the expression and transmission of all faiths and none should be cherished equally.

J C · 01-02-2014 09:23AM

The Black Oil wrote: »

Not surprising. Can a 6 year old even lift a bible? I don't recall having them in primary school, but in RE in secondary they were doorstopper size.

Yes, Bibles come in sizes similar to modern paperback books ... so there is no actual weightlifting problem ... other than in some peoples' minds!!!
... and of course the virtual bibles on-line and on CDs are weightless.

I somehow don't think the physical weight of a Bible is what is 'weighing on you' in relation to the use of Bibles in school.;)

robindch · 01-02-2014 09:36AM

J C wrote: »

The most interesting thing to come out of all of this is the advocacy of teachers in general acting as 'religious censors' and 'thought police' on this thread.

Been to Newtownabbey recently? :rolleyes:

J C · 01-02-2014 09:47AM

robindch wrote: »

Been to Newtownabbey recently? :rolleyes:

No ... what's going on there?
... and whatever is going on there, are you saying that it is a model that Liberal Secularism should follow?

aloyisious · 01-02-2014 09:51AM

I'm not sure about others, but I find it very surprising that an adult teacher would ask children to make short presentations about a family Christian tradition and not expect it to include religious input into it by the children, given the basis of the request and the nearness of Christmas (19th Dec being the quoted-date of the incident). It's kids that were asked and they generally take things at face value and respond likewise.

Edit: plus the added funny that it's a teacher possibly unaware of the original derivation of the word Christian.

pauldla · 01-02-2014 10:03AM

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm not sure about others, but I find it very surprising that an adult teacher would ask children to make short presentations about a family Christian tradition and not expect it to include religious input into it by the children, given the basis of the request and the nearness of Christmas (19th Dec being the quoted-date of the incident). It's kids that were asked and they generally take things at face value and respond likewise.

Edit: plus the added funny that it's a teacher possibly unaware of the original derivation of the word Christian.

The story is spurious. Fake. They Made It Up, it seems. And who did the making? Why, the delightfully named Advocates for Faith and Freedom. Faith, it seems, can grant freedom from factual or fair reportage.

Too many ‘f’s in that last sentence. uck it.

First-grader told to stop talking about Bible

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