First-grader told to stop talking about Bible

vard

Very sad

Woops, forgot to link. I'm thick. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/14/first-grader-told-to-stop-talking-about-bible/

"So here’s the way I see it. The school district either:

Made a gross mistake;
Is ignorant of the Constitution;
Is infested with radical secularists who like to bully Christian children:
All of the above.
What happened inside that classroom is nothing short of un-American. I don’t know about you, but I’m getting tired of my tax dollars being used to pay the salaries of public school teachers who humiliate and bully Christian boys and girls."

lazygal

Separation of church and state. We could do with more of it round our way.

mcmoustache

WTF is this all about?

Link?

Context?

Anything??

OP looks like something cut from another thread.

Bad thread. Bad.

Kiwi in IE

I would have no problem with a child talking about the bible in the context of this story. HOWEVER, and it will be a big however for many Christians, if it is acceptable for a child from a Christian family to proclaim to her class that 'Jesus is the saviour of the world', it must be considered equally appropriate for a child from an athiest family to tell their class that God does not exist.

It has to be all or nothing. Not privileges for some groups that aren't afforded to others. I imagine that the same child's parents would be horrified if another child was allowed to tell their daughter, and the rest of the class that god does not exist/Jesus was an ordinary man etc. Why should Christianity be given special status over everyone else.

I think common sense dictates that children should be allowed to talk about what "we believe in my family", but this requires an understanding that not all families believe the same, that their religion is one of many and others have none. Some religious parents may want their children sheltered even from that fact!

Kiwi in IE

mcmoustache wrote: »

WTF is this all about?

Link?

Context?

Anything??

OP looks like something cut from another thread.

Bad thread. Bad.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/14/first-grader-told-to-stop-talking-about-bible/

Mmmmm I had to look it up myself.

Just to add to what I wrote above, I am sure these policies are made clear to parents in writing in the form of a handbook/enrolment pack that they would have been given. Perhaps they should have read it rather than set their child up for a humiliating experience. Or perhaps they were just looking for a lawsuit and reason to publicly whinge and whine about 'Christians being persecuted' (as often happens when they cannot persecute others), at the expense of their daughter.

Czarcasm

This one gave me a laugh -

It’s not the first time the school district has found itself in hot water over religious liberty violations. Last October, a seventh grade student was publicly ridiculed by a teacher for reading the Bible. The classroom assignment had been to read a non-fiction book. The teacher told the student in front of the class that the Bible was fiction and refused to give him credit for the assignment.

As regards the OP, I can understand why the teacher interrupted the child and told them they weren't allowed impose their religion on the class in contravention of the school's ethos. Out of context John 3:16 is some scary shìt! :pac:

PopePalpatine

The extract Czarcasm quoted is enough to tell me this article is bollocks. When I see the words "ridiculed by a teacher", it invokes the image of a teacher pretty much telling their class to point and laugh, not being stopped and told that a Bible doesn't count as non-fiction.

Brian Shanahan

vard wrote: »

Very sad

Woops, forgot to link. I'm thick. http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/14/first-grader-told-to-stop-talking-about-bible/

Der Volkisher Beobachter wrote:

What happened inside that classroom is nothing short of un-American. I don’t know about you, but I’m getting tired of my tax dollars being used to pay the salaries of public school teachers who humiliate and bully Christian boys and girls."

Given that what Faux news thinks is in the US constitution only appeared in the German constitution between 1933-1945, I don't think anyone should listen to them on legal matters.

Unfortunately for America a lot of people do.

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Or perhaps they were just looking for a lawsuit and reason to publicly whinge and whine about 'Christians being persecuted' [...]

There have been cases in the USA where religious students -- creationists mostly, if memory serves -- have video-taped a provoked conflict in order to bring a lawsuit against a school. I'm not sure that they've ever been successful, but it certainly has happened.

Turtwig

robindch wrote: »

There have been cases in the USA where religious students -- creationists mostly, if memory serves -- have video-taped a provoked conflict in order to bring a lawsuit against a school. I'm not sure that they've ever been successful, but it certainly has happened.

Yeah they're like those nutters recording border patrol interviews. Or provoking cops with their right to bear arms malarkey.

Peregrinus

Fox News is not a reliable source but, if we assume for a moment that the bare bones of the story may actually be true then, actually, the kid may be in the right.

"Separation of church and state", at least as practised in the US means both (a) that the school cannot require kids to pray, inculcate religious beliefs in kids, etc ("no establishment of religion") but also (b) that the school cannot infringe the kids rights to pray, express their religious beliefs, etc ("free exercise"). There is absolutuly no foundation for a view that US law prevents the bible from being mentioned or discussed in US public schools; in fact their is a definite constitutional right to do so. It's not just religious nutters who think so; the ACLu is constantly backing legal cases in support of students' freedom of religious expression in public schools.

As for teaching kids that the bible is "fiction", that would be a striking blend of ignorance and bigotry. Anyone who actually picks up a bible and looks at it can see that it contains a wide variety of literary genres, one of which is fiction but most of which are not.

Dfmnoc

Any one look at the writers facebook page hes ****ing mental

PopePalpatine

What are the highlights of the author's FB page? I'm on my phone and I REALLY don't want Faux News to get advertising revenue.

Dfmnoc

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What are the highlights of the author's FB page? I'm on my phone and I REALLY don't want Faux News to get advertising revenue.

Example
Todd Starnes
5 hours ago
MORNING GLORY! Start your day inspired: Acts 2:1-4 "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."
102Like · · Share
Top Comments
1,123 people like this.



Press Enter to post.

Mary McEwen Rayburn-Baker Our untapped Power source...Spirit of the Living God fall fresh on me....(wonderful song)..break me, melt me, mold me, fill me.......Powerful 2 more verses...Soul of Heaven.....Heart of God...great morning prayer. Thank you, Todd, for breaking the Bread of Life to me this early morning.
Like · Reply · 47 · 5 hours ago
2 Replies · 50 minutes ago

Candis Little Nestor Brooks PRAISE THE LORD!
So thankful for the Holy Ghost and Fire... For a Pastor who is not afraid to preach the truth.
Like · Reply · 32 · 5 hours ago
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Knasher

If the story is accurate then Fox news is correct, the school can't stop a student from talking just because what they are saying is religious in nature. In fact I've heard of this being used as a loophole in the separation of church and state, where a student *chooses* to read a prayer during graduation when a school is legally stopped from doing the same.

But to be honest I'm suspicious of the story, it is hard to believe that at the run up christmas, in America, there was only one student who brought in something religious.

Doctor DooM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

The extract Czarcasm quoted is enough to tell me this article is bollocks. When I see the words "ridiculed by a teacher", it invokes the image of a teacher pretty much telling their class to point and laugh, not being stopped and told that a Bible doesn't count as non-fiction.

The word "fox" was enough to tell me this article is bollocks!

Brian Shanahan

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

While I definitely don't believe that the bible is a factual account of anything, I don't think it was very intelligent of the teacher to describe it as fiction.

I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that it is. Given what little we know about the earliest "christian" writings, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that originally christians thought the christ was simply a spirit sent by god to infuse human beings with his glory, and that any personage of Jesus was a later invention after orthodoxy was established to retroactively prop up its legitimacy.

The problem with the whole Jesus narrative is that there is sd little evidence to support any of it, and what little that is from the period of his supposed life contradicts the church position.

Piliger

Nice to see this school taking an active role in keeping religion out of school. This poor girl is obviously a victim of total brainwashing by her abusive parents and the teacher was right to step in. Fox is a loud obnoxious mouthpiece for the GOP and the extreme right wing christian movement. I'd like to see this poor child's parents get a visit from the social services.

Czarcasm

Piliger wrote: »

Nice to see this school taking an active role in keeping religion out of school. This poor girl is obviously a victim of total brainwashing by her abusive parents and the teacher was right to step in. Fox is a loud obnoxious mouthpiece for the GOP and the extreme right wing christian movement. I'd like to see this poor child's parents get a visit from the social services.

Social services have enough to be doing dealing with children who actually ARE victims of abuse rather than that sort of nonsense Pilliger tbh. You honestly think they'd have any interest in separating children from their parents on the basis of their parents guiding them in their faith?

The First Amendment says they can't, even if you wanted them to.

branie

Bill O'Reilly would call the teacher a "Pinhead"

Piliger

Czarcasm wrote: »

Social services have enough to be doing dealing with children who actually ARE victims of abuse rather than that sort of nonsense Pilliger tbh. You honestly think they'd have any interest in separating children from their parents on the basis of their parents guiding them in their faith?

The First Amendment says they can't, even if you wanted them to.

Typical theist attitude to children.

Czarcasm

Piliger wrote: »

Typical theist attitude to children.

Ehh? I was just giving you the facts -

Freedom of Religion is protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

Piliger

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ehh? I was just giving you the facts -

Freedom of Religion is protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

Not freedom to brain wash children.

Czarcasm

Piliger wrote: »

Not freedom to brain wash children.

Well if you must call it brain washing and abuse, you'll find your opinion very much in the minority as it doesn't square with most people's definition of either brain washing, nor abuse, be they theist or atheist. That's not just a theist attitude to children, I think nobody whether they be theist or atheist would like to see children brain washed and abused, going by the actual definitions of brain washing or abuse, and using such inflammatory terms with regard to children is one way to display a lack of perspective.

pauldla

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that it is. Given what little we know about the earliest "christian" writings, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that originally christians thought the christ was simply a spirit sent by god to infuse human beings with his glory, and that any personage of Jesus was a later invention after orthodoxy was established to retroactively prop up its legitimacy.

The problem with the whole Jesus narrative is that there is sd little evidence to support any of it, and what little that is from the period of his supposed life contradicts the church position.

I'm not sure, tbh. It's not fiction in the same sense that Lord of the Rings is fiction, surely. Given what a complex text the Bible is, not all of it could be fiction, or to be more accurate, could have been written as fiction. The writers of Genesis, for example, probably genuinely thought that that's how the universe came about. So I don't think that it can be labelled as fiction. It's a religious text, and thus in a class of it's own.

Hotblack Desiato

Dfmnoc wrote: »

Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.

:pac: :pac: :pac:

Brian Shanahan

pauldla wrote: »

I'm not sure, tbh. It's not fiction in the same sense that Lord of the Rings is fiction, surely. Given what a complex text the Bible is, not all of it could be fiction, or to be more accurate, could have been written as fiction.

In all honesty LOTR is a far more complex series of books than the bible is. There is a logical thought process through the LOTR series, a complex morality, a humanity and complexity about (most of, Tolkien was weak when writing female roles) the actors within the series that is completely lacking in the bible.

And there is a long history within the christian church of it being a virtue in the eyes of god to lie in the propogation of his religion. I wouldn't be suprised if at least a few of the original authors of what the various churches consider to be canon to have deliberately lied in their writings, to have created fictions, solely in an attempt to bolster their particular conception of what christianity meant.

Peregrinus

But LOTR is a single saga, the work of a single author, composed within a short number of years, to a preconceived plan. The bible is a collection of texts composed for a variety of purposes over a span of thousands of years by a huge variety of narrators, authors, editors, redactors, etc, most of whom are anonymous, and much later assembled into a collection and assigned a mystical significance by another set of people, most of whom are also anonymous. It make no sense at all to criticise the Bible for lacking the coherence and thematic unity of LOTR. No sane person would expect it to resemble LOTR iin this regard.

The bible contains fiction, undoubtedly, but not that much. It also contains poetry, philosophy, prophecy, meditation, reflection, allegory, apocalyptic literature, history, exegesis, polemic and many other genres of literature. Any teacher who tells his pupils that the bible is fiction is lying to them for ideological reasons, and I confidently look forward to the ringing denunciations of "brainwashing" for which this forum is so justly noted.

Cabaal

Peregrinus wrote: »

But LOTR is a single saga, the work of a single author, composed within a short number of years, to a preconceived plan. The bible is a collection of texts composed for a variety of purposes over a span of thousands of years by a huge variety of narrators, authors, editors, redactors, etc, most of whom are anonymous, and much later assembled into a collection and assigned a mystical significance by another set of people, most of whom are also anonymous. It make no sense at all to criticise the Bible for lacking the coherence and thematic unity of LOTR. No sane person would expect it to resemble LOTR iin this regard.

The bible contains fiction, undoubtedly, but not that much. It also contains poetry, philosophy, prophecy, meditation, reflection, allegory, apocalyptic literature, history, exegesis, polemic and many other genres of literature. Any teacher who tells his pupils that the bible is fiction is lying to them for ideological reasons, and I confidently look forward to the ringing denunciations of "brainwashing" for which this forum is so justly noted.

But if any person claims the bible is fact (and alot of people do actually think this), its far more accurate to say its a work of fiction then to agree with them.

So much of it is inaccurate, it makes some historical references but they are far from accurate in the vast majority of cases.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

But if any person claims the bible is fact (and alot of people do actually think this), its far more accurate to say its a work of fiction then to agree with them.

Can you say "false dichotomy"?

Cabaal wrote: »

So much of it is inaccurate, it makes some historical references but they are far from accurate in the vast majority of cases.

Oh, there's plenty of history in the bible, and the claim that it's "far from accurate in the vast majority of cases" is I think a contentious one. How many historical inaccuracies can you point to in, say, the First and Second Books of Maccabbees, dealing the (undoubtedly historic) Maccabbean revolt? Have you tottted up all the fact-claiims in the history books of the bible (a distinct minority of the books, by the way) and divided them into true, false and undetermined in order to bolster you claim that "the vast majority" are inaccurate? No, didn't think so.

Of course, the history books in the bible are history written for a purpose; this is true of all history from that period. Although the bible contains many genres of literature, one genre it does not contain is "impartial journalism"; that genre was not invented until centuries after the last biblical works were composed. So when you see a historical claim in the bible, the question "is this actually true?" is, mostly, not the most relevant question you should be asking. The important question - the question a really critical reading requires - is "why did the author include this?" And we do think religious texts should be read critically, don't we, boys and girls? And we think students should be taught to read them critically, don't we? And being encouraged to dismiss them as "fiction" is (a) a lie, which is (b) told to discourage them from critical engagement with the text, isn't it? And that's Not A Good Thing, is it?

Cabaal

Peregrinus, look at it this way.

If I write a book like lord of the rings but put some historical references throughout it and say write about a couple of wars....even in great detail, it doesn't change the fact that the book is still a work of fiction because the underlying theme and message in the book is fiction and was made up.

As such because the underlying message remains to be about god, his make believe actions, his make believe talking to people and his god son, it still without a doubt remains a book of fiction....certainly not fact.

If you go into a library or even onto amazon you will find it in the Religion & Spirituality section, as religion can not be proven as factual as you can't prove the existence of god then again it remains as a work of fiction.

The religion exists...thats factual...the religion is created by people and people believe in the make believe god, but the god or god's do not exist until actual proof is provided.

Peregrinus

Do you classify all texts as fact or fiction? And, if so, do you put all texts which make philosophical claims in the "fiction" section of your library? Cause, you know, it's the nature of philosophical claims that they can't be proven as factual. Are all your poetry books in the fiction section? All your texts advocating human rights, or equality, or a woman's right to choose? None of those things can be "proven as factual".

There's a huge variety of literary genres; fiction is just one. The notion that any text making an assertion which cannot be "proven as factual" should be classed as fiction is just bizarre. And the implication, in this context, that a text so classed should be dismissed is not just bizarre; it's downright sinister.

Cabaal

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do you classify all texts as fact or fiction? And, if so, do you put all texts which make philosophical claims in the "fiction" section of your library? Cause, you know, it's the nature of philosophical claims that they can't be proven as factual. Are all your poetry books in the fiction section? All your texts advocating human rights, or equality, or a woman's right to choose? None of those things can be "proven as factual".

There's a huge variety of literary genres; fiction is just one. The notion that any text making an assertion which cannot be "proven as factual" should be classed as fiction is just bizarre. And the implication, in this context, that a text so classed should be dismissed is not just bizarre; it's downright sinister.

if you take that line then the only correct answer for the teacher to give is, its a religious text. Nothing more.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

if you take that line then the only correct answer for the teacher to give is, its a religious text. Nothing more.

Why "nothing more"? Can a religious text have no literary genre? Can a religious text not be, say, poetry? Or exegesis? Or apocalyptic literature? Or allegory? Or song lyrics?

Czarcasm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why "nothing more"? Can a religious text have no literary genre? Can a religious text not be, say, poetry? Or exegesis? Or apocalyptic literature? Or allegory? Or song lyrics?

I imagine Cabaal means a teacher shouldn't need to get into a religious philosophical discussion with a student when the school has a secular ethos. A student trying to get up a teacher's nose is hardly anything newsworthy.

Turtwig

Closing this mess.

Edit: Normally if a mod forgets to infract to a user that user stays the heck out of the limelight. Instead, Piliger got my attention in two other threads aswell! Bizarre. Anyway, Piliger has been giving one week cooling period.

Edit: Edit: Several petty sniping posts deleted. Thread reopened. Please, keep it civil and somewhat relevant. Thanks.

Hotblack Desiato

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

There is a logical thought process through the LOTR series

Because even mythological or science fiction has to be grounded in some sort of logic and rules*. People (and editors) just won't accept it if you (a) make up any nonsensical **** universe you like and then (b) have any sort of nonsensical **** happen. You could get away with (a) or (b) but not both.


* Cue LOTR, Trek, D&D, Dr Who, etc. etc. etc. pedants who make biblical fundies look rational :pac:

(most of, Tolkien was weak when writing female roles)

So was god, it appears.

ArrahShure

reminds me of Dr Carter in Donnie Darko
"Uh. I'm... not going to be able to continue this conversation"
"Why?"
"I could lose my job"

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why "nothing more"? Can a religious text have no literary genre? Can a religious text not be, say, poetry? Or exegesis? Or apocalyptic literature? Or allegory? Or song lyrics?

Well, in fairness, what more do you want? To say that a given text is religious is to say that it is venerated by many as containing information from, or relating to, a deity, is it not? To attempt to classify it as either 'fact' or 'fiction' is, as you alluded yourself previously, a false dichotomy. It may contain a variety of styles and genres, but it's rarely obviously apparent which is fact and which fiction. As such, they are, as stated above, in a class of their own i.e. religious texts.

Brian Shanahan

ninja900 wrote: »

Because even mythological or science fiction has to be grounded in some sort of logic and rules*. People (and editors) just won't accept it if you (a) make up any nonsensical **** universe you like and then (b) have any sort of nonsensical **** happen. You could get away with (a) or (b) but not both.

No wonder everybody hated both Voyager and Enterprise.

Re god being weak when writing women, he was weak when writing everyone. Can you name a single biblical character with the emotional depth or human complexity of a cardboard cut-out of Justin Bieber? Because I can't.

the_monkey

only sad thing about this is the brain washing/child abuse that kid is enduring at home having whackjobs like that as parents.

J C

the_monkey wrote: »

only sad thing about this is the brain washing/child abuse that kid is enduring at home having whackjobs like that as parents.

I see that we're back to more 'child abuse' accusations being levelled at good Christian parents again!!!
Please stop making unfounded prejudicial sectarian comments against people of faith with whom you disagree.

... and what's this sinister fixation about religion being 'child abuse' all about anyway?
... is it a case of throwing enough mud and expecting some of it to stick??

... and getting back to the topic of the thread, I think it is quite outrageous that any child should be censored for talking about their faith ... especially when all of the children had been asked to do so:-

wrote:

"The incident occurred Dec. 19 inside a first grade classroom at Helen Hunt-Jackson Elementary School in Temecula, Calif. The previous day the teacher instructed boys and girls to find something at home that represented a family Christmas tradition. They were supposed to bring the item to school and share the item in a classroom presentation.

Brynn Williams decided to bring the Star of Bethlehem that adorned the top of her family’s Christmas tree. She also worked on a one minute presentation to explain that her family’s tradition is to remember the birth of Jesus at Christmas time.

“Our Christmas tradition is to put a star on top of our tree,” the little girl said. “The star is named the Star of Bethlehem. The three kings followed the star to find baby Jesus, the Savior of the world.”

Before the child could utter another word, the teacher intervened, according to Robert Tyler, the general counsel for Advocates for Faith & Freedom – the law firm representing the Williams family.

“Brynn’s teacher said, ‘Stop right there! Go take your seat,’” Tyler said. “Brynn was not allowed to finish her presentation by reciting the Bible verse, John 3:16.”

... and this is supposed to be freedom of religion???

Is this what Christians are facing in this country as well, if the people, who support this type of censorship, get their 'pseudo-liberal' way?

DJumbo brekfast roll

Ned Flanders: Let's thank the Lord for another beautiful day.
Superintendent Chalmers: "Thank the Lord"? That sounded like a prayer. A prayer in a public school. God has no place within these walls, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion.

robindch

J C wrote: »

... and what's this sinister fixation about religion being 'child abuse' all about anyway?

While I disagree with the term "abuse" which has unpleasant overtones, it's still both disgraceful and dishonest that parents will willfully lie to their children about the world, when they're too young and too naive to be able to defend themselves against the dishonesty.

It would be better to refer to it as an abuse of trust, or emotional and intellectual abuse.

miss no stars

Storm in a teacup and very badly handled.

Let's try to remember the child is only six years old.

The teacher should have said something along the lines of "Hey Brynn, could you just hold up there a second and come over to my desk? I have a question for you"

Then the teacher could have found out what she planned to say, shown her how to change it so that she wasn't reciting directly and was just informing people of her family tradition (it was only a 1 minute speech), sent her to her desk to write out what she wanted to say and brought her up after the next child. Instead he was curt with a kid who didn't understand what she had done wrong and why she wasn't allowed talk about her family traditions but everyone else was.

I can really understand why people are upset over this, she's just a kid. She was asked to bring in something about her family traditions at Christmas and she did. Christmas is very much intertwined with Christianity and the birth of Christ. That's well recognized. It's also a time for family and mid-winter celebration, but it's hard to deny the Christian involvement in Christmas! Hence why it's celebrated in countries that are traditionally Christian but not in those that traditionally aren't.

The fault here lies with the teacher. He was right to stop her but absolutely wrong in how he went about it. I feel sorry for the kid. Not for the parents, but for the kid.

The Black Oil

I am often I suspicious of how these stories are picked up, particularly when on organisation like Advocates for Faith and Freedom get on board. Seems a touch convenient. They seem little more than outrage fodder cheered on by the likes of Fox News, and there may be more going on than what's reported. Teacher may have messed up, but let's take it easy with the persecution card.

Hotblack Desiato

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

/thread

pauldla

ninja900 wrote: »

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

/thread

OP hasn't had much to say on the matter, either.

Knasher

Update on this story at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/another-religious-right-tale-anti-christian-victimization-gets-thoroughly-debunked

Apparently the guy who reported on this for Fox News has a habit of making stuff up to fit a Christian persecution narrative.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-perry-fox-news-and-religious-right-activists-jump-fabricated-case-christian-persecution

Czarcasm

Knasher wrote: »

Update on this story at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/another-religious-right-tale-anti-christian-victimization-gets-thoroughly-debunked

Apparently the guy who reported on this for Fox News has a habit of making stuff up to fit a Christian persecution narrative.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-perry-fox-news-and-religious-right-activists-jump-fabricated-case-christian-persecution

Hands up anyone who thought the story in the OP was true in the first place...

Anyone? :pac:

Cabaal

Czarcasm wrote: »

Hands up anyone who thought the story in the OP was true in the first place...

Anyone? :pac:

JC and BB might have? :pac: