First-grader told to stop talking about Bible

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm not sure about others, but I find it very surprising that an adult teacher would ask children to make short presentations about a family Christian tradition and not expect it to include religious input into it by the children, given the basis of the request and the nearness of Christmas (19th Dec being the quoted-date of the incident).

Quote the teacher and school.

“At no time did I ever tell the student that she could not read the bottom section [of her statement] because it was a Bible verse nor did she ask if she could finish,” said teacher Tammy Williams. “I never told her to ‘Stop right there!’ or ‘Go take your seat!’ or reprimand her in front of the class for sharing from the Bible. It just did not happen.”

It never happened. Pure and simple.

miss no stars wrote: »

Storm in a teacup and very badly handled.

Let's try to remember the child is only six years old.

The teacher should have said something along the lines of "Hey Brynn, could you just hold up there a second and come over to my desk? I have a question for you"

Then the teacher could have found out what she planned to say, shown her how to change it so that she wasn't reciting directly and was just informing people of her family tradition (it was only a 1 minute speech), sent her to her desk to write out what she wanted to say and brought her up after the next child. Instead he was curt with a kid who didn't understand what she had done wrong and why she wasn't allowed talk about her family traditions but everyone else was.

I can really understand why people are upset over this, she's just a kid. She was asked to bring in something about her family traditions at Christmas and she did. Christmas is very much intertwined with Christianity and the birth of Christ. That's well recognized. It's also a time for family and mid-winter celebration, but it's hard to deny the Christian involvement in Christmas! Hence why it's celebrated in countries that are traditionally Christian but not in those that traditionally aren't.

The fault here lies with the teacher. He was right to stop her but absolutely wrong in how he went about it. I feel sorry for the kid. Not for the parents, but for the kid.

Except it is clear from the school that it never happened.

J C wrote: »

Still believes what?
The most interesting thing to come out of all of this is the advocacy of teachers in general acting as 'religious censors' and 'thought police' on this thread.

Protectors of abused children.

It seems that a First Grader in Ireland

We don't have first grade. That's the American system.

...will be prevented from talking about their faith and the Bible will be banned in any school controlled by people with a wordview similar to those on this thread.

Hopefully yes, they will be liberated from the indoctrination of their misguided and misinformed parents and the malevolent churches.

This illiberal view of Secularism (as an exclusive anti-religious movement rather than an inclusive cherishing of all faiths and none viewpoint) ... seems to be where the posters on this thread are heading, if they are not already there. I'm open to correction on this ... but it does seem that Secularism is being defined by you guys as anti-religious rather than areligious and therefore tolerant of the expression of all faiths and none.

Secularism is the embodiment of Liberalism and Liberty. Liberty from the abuse and brainwashing of these defenceless children in the face of the aggressive fantasy of theists.

It's quite ironic that I appear to be the only Liberal Secularist on this thread ... believing as I do, that the expression and transmission of all faiths and none should be cherished equally.

There is nothing liberal about the views you express here. They add up to nothing less than theist fascism.

Czarcasm

J C wrote: »

This illiberal view of Secularism (as an exclusive anti-religious movement rather than an inclusive cherishing of all faiths and none viewpoint) ... seems to be where the posters on this thread are heading, if they are not already there. I'm open to correction on this ... but it does seem that Secularism is being defined by you guys as anti-religious rather than areligious and therefore tolerant of the expression of all faiths and none.

J C what you call "liberal secularism" is actually "liberal spiritualism". Secularism is simply the separation of Church and State, ie; The Church will have no influence in matters of the State. Education of children is a matter for the State, Indoctrination of children is a matter for the Church. Your liberal interpretation of secularism would apply more to education in an Educate Together school -

Q: Are Educate Together schools anti-religious?

A : No, they are multi-denominational. The schools provide an environment in which the spiritual background of each child is equally respected whatever their family’s viewpoint. Our Ethical Education Curriculum, called Learn Together, has four strands. One specific strand aims to develop in children a critical knowledge, understanding and awareness of the teachings of religious and non-theistic belief systems and how these systems relate to our shared human experience. The Learn Together curriculum aims to inform rather than instruct. It teaches children about religions rather than teaching that one is “the right way to think”. We believe that specific religious formation is the responsibility of parents and religious organisations outside school. Within the school we aim to ensure that no child has to be set apart as a result of their religion. We also understand that many parents want their children to receive formal religious instruction. With this in mind, our school boards facilitate the organisation of voluntary faith formation classes outside school hours. These classes are organised with the assistance of the relevant church authorities.

Source: educatetogether.ie FAQ

Secularism in this thread is not being defined as anti-religion. It is being used in the correct context, without your "liberal" twist ('liberal' in the sense that you're simply taking liberties and playing fast and loose with commonly understood word definitions to have them take on a whole new meaning individual to your own philosophy) as the separation of Church and State.

Tolerance, understanding and respect goes both ways, and the parents in this case showed no tolerance, respect nor understanding of the State school's secular philosophy, by seeking to use their child to wedge in their spiritual philosophy, or as you would call it, their 'liberal secularism'. Quite frankly, yours is a ridiculous expression with no real meaning except to yourself, and even then you're struggling to explain it properly as you've twisted yourself in knots trying to be clever about it.

As for the whole notion of Christmas traditions and their spiritual meaning, I've known a few that have no interest in the religious aspects of Christmas traditions but still like to get in on the fun, such as a muslim couple I know with children who when I walked into their house I was surprised to see a Christmas tree up -

"I thought you guys didn't celebrate Christmas?"

"Ohh sometimes we like to join in the fun!"

No connection to their religion whatsoever, just a fun traditional thing to do as far as they were concerned, the very same as a school teacher who gave her students an assignment to write about their family's Christmas traditions, without any of the religious and spiritual malarkey - Leave out a carrot for Rudolph, hang up a sock for Santa, Christmas dinner, that sort of thing, quite far removed from "My God says you all must die!" that the child's parents were trying to push. That's the sort of religious intolerance bestowed upon a six year old child who lacks the capacity to truly understand the meaning of what she's saying that showed the child's parents had no respect for the school's secular ethos.

Like I said - tolerance, understanding and respect goes both ways, just like the way you're constantly preaching from the moral high ground about religious intolerance in the Atheism and Agnosticism forum. What the hell do you expect when you show no tolerance and have no respect for other posters who don't share your beliefs? You insult posters here and then claim it's YOU are being persecuted because of your faith. You're not being persecuted because of your faith, you're being called out for behaving like an ass and posting utter nonsense that only serves to distract from having any real discussion on the issue. You're doing the very same as if I strolled into the LGBT forum and told them "Stop all that gay talk as it makes me uncomfortable". I'd be told to fcuk right off, and only rightly so!

bumper234

J C wrote: »

Something did happen in this school ... what exactly is lost in a welter of claim and counter claim.

However, it is patently clear that most of the posters (and all of the 'Secularists') on this thread advocate the censorship of all religious expression and transmission from all schools, if they could arrange it.

... and the comparison drawn between the transmission of the Christian Faith from parent to child (in private or in school) to child abuse tells us all we need to know about the stance of the so-called 'secular' people on this thread on tolerance and respect for religious diversity and true pluralism.

Mods need to censor your posts and either ban the silly overuse of the bold function in your every post or start replacing every bolded word with <SNIP>. It would make threads that you "contribute" in a hell of a lot easier to read. Seriously it hurts my eyes!

aloyisious

On an aside to the main topic of this thread, I have to say I blinked once or twice when I saw that J C had posted contributions to it, got me rattled for a mo :-)

pauldla

J C wrote: »

Something did happen in this school ... what exactly is lost in a welter of claim and counter claim.

However, it is patently clear that most of the posters (and all of the 'Secularists') on this thread advocate the censorship of all religious expression and transmission from all schools, if the could arrange it.

... and the comparison drawn between the transmission of the Christian Faith from parent to child (in private or in school) to child abuse tells us all we need to know about the 'secular' people on this thread stand on tolerance and respect for religious diversity and true pluralism.

Faith, it seems, can grant freedom from factual or fair reportage.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

J C wrote: »

"A prominent DUP woman broke ranks with her council colleagues to condemn the banning of the play. Alderman Dineen Walker, deputy mayor of Newtownabbey, told the Belfast Telegraph it was not the job of councillors to censor art."

"A prominent DUP woman" - nice way of putting it

The Black Oil

Disgusting for any group to use a school/children to spin their fiction to try and further their cause. However, I'm sure JC will tell us this disgust is nowhere near as important as being outraged by alleged censorship.

pauldla wrote: »

The story is spurious. Fake. They Made It Up, it seems. And who did the making? Why, the delightfully named Advocates for Faith and Freedom. Faith, it seems, can grant freedom from factual or fair reportage.

Too many ‘f’s in that last sentence. uck it.

Something did happen in this school ... what exactly is lost in a welter of claim and counter claim.

However, it is patently clear that most of the posters (and all of the 'Secularists') on this thread advocate the censorship of all religious expression and transmission from all schools, if they could arrange it.

... and the comparison drawn between the transmission of the Christian Faith from parent to child (in private or in school) to child abuse tells us all we need to know about the stance of the so-called 'secular' people on this thread on tolerance and respect for religious diversity and true pluralism.

robindch wrote: »

A rather desperate attempt by god's elected representatives to stop people enjoying themselves.

The story went worldwide to howls of laughter, so god withdrew his closure order on the show and it went ahead to sell-out audiences:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/bible-play-ban-reversed-newtownabbey-council-reinstates-complete-word-of-god-to-theatre-at-the-mill-29954370.html

Not very omniscient, you'll have to agree.

I'm not going to derail this thread on this issue ... but I would respectfully cite the following quote to provide some balance to your anti-religious caraciture of the issue :-
Quote:-
"A prominent DUP woman broke ranks with her council colleagues to condemn the banning of the play. Alderman Dineen Walker, deputy mayor of Newtownabbey, told the Belfast Telegraph it was not the job of councillors to censor art."

... but it does seem to be the job of Secular teachers (according to most posters on this thread) to censor religion ... and expressions of Faith in school.

J C wrote: »

No ... what's going on there?

A rather desperate attempt by god's elected representatives to stop people enjoying themselves.

The story went worldwide to howls of laughter, so god withdrew his closure order on the show and it went ahead to sell-out audiences:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/bible-play-ban-reversed-newtownabbey-council-reinstates-complete-word-of-god-to-theatre-at-the-mill-29954370.html

Not very omniscient, you'll have to agree.

pauldla

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm not sure about others, but I find it very surprising that an adult teacher would ask children to make short presentations about a family Christian tradition and not expect it to include religious input into it by the children, given the basis of the request and the nearness of Christmas (19th Dec being the quoted-date of the incident). It's kids that were asked and they generally take things at face value and respond likewise.

Edit: plus the added funny that it's a teacher possibly unaware of the original derivation of the word Christian.

The story is spurious. Fake. They Made It Up, it seems. And who did the making? Why, the delightfully named Advocates for Faith and Freedom. Faith, it seems, can grant freedom from factual or fair reportage.

Too many ‘f’s in that last sentence. uck it.

aloyisious

I'm not sure about others, but I find it very surprising that an adult teacher would ask children to make short presentations about a family Christian tradition and not expect it to include religious input into it by the children, given the basis of the request and the nearness of Christmas (19th Dec being the quoted-date of the incident). It's kids that were asked and they generally take things at face value and respond likewise.

Edit: plus the added funny that it's a teacher possibly unaware of the original derivation of the word Christian.

robindch wrote: »

Been to Newtownabbey recently? :rolleyes:

No ... what's going on there?
... and whatever is going on there, are you saying that it is a model that Liberal Secularism should follow?

J C wrote: »

The most interesting thing to come out of all of this is the advocacy of teachers in general acting as 'religious censors' and 'thought police' on this thread.

Been to Newtownabbey recently? :rolleyes:

The Black Oil wrote: »

Not surprising. Can a 6 year old even lift a bible? I don't recall having them in primary school, but in RE in secondary they were doorstopper size.

Yes, Bibles come in sizes similar to modern paperback books ... so there is no actual weightlifting problem ... other than in some peoples' minds!!!
... and of course the virtual bibles on-line and on CDs are weightless.

I somehow don't think the physical weight of a Bible is what is 'weighing on you' in relation to the use of Bibles in school.;)

PopePalpatine wrote: »

J C probably still believes it. :rolleyes:

Still believes what?
The most interesting thing to come out of all of this is the advocacy of teachers in general acting as 'religious censors' and 'thought police' on this thread.
It seems that a First Grader in Ireland will be prevented from talking about their faith and the Bible will be banned in any school controlled by people with a wordview similar to those on this thread.
This illiberal view of Secularism (as an exclusive anti-religious movement rather than an inclusive cherishing of all faiths and none viewpoint) ... seems to be where the posters on this thread are heading, if they are not already there. I'm open to correction on this ... but it does seem that Secularism is being defined by you guys as anti-religious rather than areligious and therefore tolerant of the expression of all faiths and none.

It's quite ironic that I appear to be the only Liberal Secularist on this thread ... believing as I do, that the expression and transmission of all faiths and none should be cherished equally.

Czarcasm

The Black Oil wrote: »

Not surprising. Can a 6 year old even lift a bible? I don't recall having them in primary school, but in RE in secondary they were doorstopper size.

A six year old could lift one alright, even memorize passages from it, in Latin...

Whether they actually have the mental development capacity to actually understand what they're reading though is another question entirely...

The Black Oil

Not surprising. Can a 6 year old even lift a bible? I don't recall having them in primary school, but in RE in secondary they were doorstopper size.

ninja900 wrote: »

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

The school and the teachers directly involved had to release their own statement - making it absolutely clear that these claims never ever happened.

From http://www.rawstory.com/

"“Over the past week, I have received countless phone calls and 126 mean-spirited emails from across the country as a result of the claims that the Advocates of Faith and Freedom have made against one of my teachers, the school district, and myself,” said Principal Ami Paradise. “These claims are simply not true.”
“At no time did I ever tell the student that she could not read the bottom section [of her statement] because it was a Bible verse nor did she ask if she could finish,” said teacher Tammy Williams. “I never told her to ‘Stop right there!’ or ‘Go take your seat!’ or reprimand her in front of the class for sharing from the Bible. It just did not happen.”

Paradise said she met with the following day with the girl’s parents, who were upset because they thought she was unable to finish her presentation because of its biblical content.

The principal said neither parent claimed bullying or humiliation by teachers, which she said was made up by the religious legal group, and she has not heard from the parents since presenting her findings about the incident Dec. 24 to the school board.

Paradise said she stood behind the teacher, and both she and Williams complained that Tyler and his group had misrepresented the incident and damaged their reputations.

“What saddens me is that this story was twisted into lies and brought to the media,” Williams said. “I have never sat down and discussed this directly with the family or the student. I am instead being used to push an agenda for the Advocates for Faith and Freedom.”

PopePalpatine

J C probably still believes it. :rolleyes:

Cabaal

Czarcasm wrote: »

Hands up anyone who thought the story in the OP was true in the first place...

Anyone? :pac:

JC and BB might have? :pac:

Czarcasm

Knasher wrote: »

Update on this story at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/another-religious-right-tale-anti-christian-victimization-gets-thoroughly-debunked

Apparently the guy who reported on this for Fox News has a habit of making stuff up to fit a Christian persecution narrative.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-perry-fox-news-and-religious-right-activists-jump-fabricated-case-christian-persecution

Hands up anyone who thought the story in the OP was true in the first place...

Anyone? :pac:

Knasher

Update on this story at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/another-religious-right-tale-anti-christian-victimization-gets-thoroughly-debunked

Apparently the guy who reported on this for Fox News has a habit of making stuff up to fit a Christian persecution narrative.
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-perry-fox-news-and-religious-right-activists-jump-fabricated-case-christian-persecution

pauldla

ninja900 wrote: »

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

/thread

OP hasn't had much to say on the matter, either.

Hotblack Desiato

The OP cited Fox News so this probably never happened. If it did happen, it didn't go down like they said.

/thread

The Black Oil

I am often I suspicious of how these stories are picked up, particularly when on organisation like Advocates for Faith and Freedom get on board. Seems a touch convenient. They seem little more than outrage fodder cheered on by the likes of Fox News, and there may be more going on than what's reported. Teacher may have messed up, but let's take it easy with the persecution card.

miss no stars

Storm in a teacup and very badly handled.

Let's try to remember the child is only six years old.

The teacher should have said something along the lines of "Hey Brynn, could you just hold up there a second and come over to my desk? I have a question for you"

Then the teacher could have found out what she planned to say, shown her how to change it so that she wasn't reciting directly and was just informing people of her family tradition (it was only a 1 minute speech), sent her to her desk to write out what she wanted to say and brought her up after the next child. Instead he was curt with a kid who didn't understand what she had done wrong and why she wasn't allowed talk about her family traditions but everyone else was.

I can really understand why people are upset over this, she's just a kid. She was asked to bring in something about her family traditions at Christmas and she did. Christmas is very much intertwined with Christianity and the birth of Christ. That's well recognized. It's also a time for family and mid-winter celebration, but it's hard to deny the Christian involvement in Christmas! Hence why it's celebrated in countries that are traditionally Christian but not in those that traditionally aren't.

The fault here lies with the teacher. He was right to stop her but absolutely wrong in how he went about it. I feel sorry for the kid. Not for the parents, but for the kid.