OK, so you're an atheist. What next?

J C · 25-01-2014 02:40AM

ninja900 wrote: »

I thought it would have been multicoloured Comic Sans.

Your arguments are thoroughly laughable J C, but do carry on.

There is still no credible source for the allegations in the OP.

The prime issue has now become the reaction of Secularists on this thread to the OP ... whether its true or not.

You guys are justifying the humilation of all six year old Christian children in Secular schools who have the temerity to witness to Jesus Christ ... even when they are asked to talk about Christmas.

... and ye have added insult to injury by accusing all Christian parents of being child abusers!!!

... and I suppose, in your nievety, ye then expect to take over every school in Ireland so that the 'only Secularist in the village' can be satisfied that the 90% plus Christian children at the village school are being taught the basic tenets of Anti-God anti-theism (under the guise of 'logic') ... and to cap it all ... ye want a ban on all expression of religious faith in the school as well !!!:(

J C · 25-01-2014 02:49AM

obplayer wrote: »

To write down all our names and send their octogenarian priests, because there are few young priests, to tell us off? Sorry, the days when a priest could bang on your door and dictate your life are long gone. And why can't you post without bold and exclamation marks all the time? Is that something else you were taught in bible class?

You seriously under-estimate Roman Catholics, I think.
I find them to be quite independently minded people ... who would be quite horriified to think that what happened to this little girl could happen to their child - and they don't need any priest to tell them that this would be totally unacceptable.
... and I think, if they ever saw what has gone on in this thread (as a representative sample of what Secularists think about them and other Christians) ... they most definitely will be 'voting with their feet' on what schools they will send their children to.
... and it won't be Secularist ones they will be walking towards!!!

obplayer · 25-01-2014 03:15AM

J C wrote: »

You seriously under-estimate Roman Catholics, I think.
I find them to be quite independently minded people ... who would be quite horriified to think that what happened to this little girl could happen to their child - and they don't need any priest to tell them that this would be totally unacceptable.
... and I think, if they ever saw what has gone on in this thread (as a representative sample of what Secularists think about them and other Christians) ... they most definitely will be 'voting with their feet' on what schools they will send their children to.
... and it won't be Secularist ones they will be walking towards!!!

Roman Catholics are quite independently minded people? People who accept the decisions of a bunch of old men who have gone from mammy to seminary to Vatican to decide their lives? Those people are 'independently minded '?
As for voting with their feet in regard to schools this is exactly what secular people have been fighting for for decades. Do not confuse loss of privilege with persecution.
There is a difference between persecution and the loss of privileged status.
There is a difference between persecution and being corrected of an error.
There is a difference between persecution and being wrong.
Secular people would be delighted to have access to secular schools as easily as religious people have access to religious schools.

http://robertcargill.com/2012/11/26/the-difference-between-persecution-and-being-corrected/

Czarcasm · 25-01-2014 03:16AM

J C wrote: »

You seriously under-estimate Roman Catholics...

...and it won't be Secularist ones they will be walking towards!!!

I think it's you who underestimate people J C. I'm Roman Catholic, I also support secularism in our constitution, our educational system, our political system, and our health and welfare system.

You really need to stop making assumptions about people at this point. Actually it'd be nothing short of miraculous if you could post something that didn't sound like you were preaching from the moral high ground.

Doctor Strange · 25-01-2014 03:17AM

J C wrote: »

Keep at it guys ... you're doing a great job at talking yourselves out of ever being let next nigh or near the Christian children of Ireland .. or their schools.

Because your band of kiddie-fiddlers did better, right?

iwantmydinner · 25-01-2014 08:34AM

What are you trying to achieve here, JC?

J C · 25-01-2014 09:37AM

DarBucks wrote: »

Because your band of kiddie-fiddlers did better, right?

... they're not my band of anything ... but if children are going to be treated in a secular school, the way this young child was ... and the reaction of Secularists collectively on this thread is 'grin and bear it' ... then I will choose a school with a Christain ethos for my next child.

BTW, I attended a Secular School myself and never came across such anti-religious stuff ... and my two eldest children also did ... but from what I'm seeing on these threads I'll be sending my next child to a Roman Catholic school ... as its geographically closer and if this form of agressive Secularism and anti-religious carry-on is going to become the norm, I'm certainly not going to encourage it by sending any more of my children to any secular school.

Like a lot of things, Secularism isn't what it once was, if these threads are anything to judge by.

bumper234 · 25-01-2014 09:45AM

J C wrote: »

... they're not my band of anything ... but if children are going to be treated in a secular school, the way this young child was ... and the reaction of Secularists collectively on this thread is 'grin and bear it' ... then I will choose a school with a Christain ethos for my next child.

BTW, I attended a Secular School myself and never came across such anti-religious stuff ... and my two eldest children also did ... but from what I'm seeing on these threads I'll be sending my next child to a Roman Catholic school ... as its geographically closer and if this form of agressive Secularism and anti-religious carry-on is going to become the norm, I'm certainly not going to encourage it by sending any more of my children to any secular school.

Like a lot of things, Secularism isn't what it once was, if these threads are anything to judge by.

There should be no room for religion in schools.

J C · 25-01-2014 09:48AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think it's you who underestimate people J C. I'm Roman Catholic, I also support secularism in our constitution, our educational system, our political system, and our health and welfare system.

obplayer wrote: »

Roman Catholics are quite independently minded people? People who accept the decisions of a bunch of old men who have gone from mammy to seminary to Vatican to decide their lives? Those people are 'independently minded '?

Guys, please talk to each other ... and when you have agreed on how modern Roman Catholics think and behave ... come back to the rest of us with your answer!!

Czarcasm wrote: »

You really need to stop making assumptions about people at this point. Actually it'd be nothing short of miraculous if you could post something that didn't sound like you were preaching from the moral high ground.

When one occupies the moral high ground its an occupational hazard!!!:)
You all should try it some time ... and stop 'shooting yourselves in the foot' by defending the indefensible ... and adding insult to injury by making deeply prejudicial statements about good people of sincerely held faith.

... and BTW, I also support secularism in matters of state ... Secularism that truly respects and cherishes diversity of opinion and faith ... and not some thinly veiled anti-religious concept that humiliates six year old Christian children who talk about their faith and accuses all Christian parents of being 'child abusers' ... with the obviously sinister implications of such an unfounded accusation!!!

J C · 25-01-2014 10:05AM

bumper234 wrote: »

There should be no room for religion in schools.

... that's what Atheistic Russian Communism also said about religion and schools ... and if religion is outlawed in school (and Christian parents are accused of child abuse for privately transmitting their faith to their children) then this effectively amounts to having no room for religion anywhere!!:(

bumper234 · 25-01-2014 10:11AM

J C wrote: »

... that's what Atheistic Russian Communism also said about religion and schools ... and if religion is outlawed in school (and Christian parents are accused of child abuse for transmitting their faith) then this effectively amounts to having no room for religion anywhere!!:(

Oh my.

Being an atheist does not make someone a communist no more than being a Catholic makes someone a child molester.

Religion has no place in the education system simply because children in school should be taught subjects that will help them in life. If a parent chooses to brainwash their child and force them into a cult then maybe that needs to be looked into but no way should children be forced to listen to fairy stories and be scared ****less into believing that an invisible man is going to make them burn for eternity.

J C · 25-01-2014 10:32AM

bumper234 wrote: »

Oh my.

Being an atheist does not make someone a communist no more than being a Catholic makes someone a child molester.

Religion has no place in the education system simply because children in school should be taught subjects that will help them in life.

For a Christian parent, their faith is the most important and funamental 'help to them in life'.
I agree that there are Atheists all along the 'economic spectrum' ... but Russian Atheistic Communinsm has been a 'by-word' for religious suppression and resulted in death and misery for untold millions of Christians in their concentration camps. The fact that they had 'no room for religion' in schools is something to remember when any Secularist starts making similar noises in relation to our local schools.

bumper234 wrote: »

If a parent chooses to brainwash their child and force them into a cult then maybe that needs to be looked into but no way should children be forced to listen to fairy stories and be scared ****less into believing that an invisible man is going to make them burn for eternity.

Here you go again making biased unfounded deeply prejudicial accusations against all Christian parents who transmit their Christian Faith to their children ... and your pronouncement that this may 'need to be looked into' ... is a very sinister threat to all Christian parents ... that the state needs to treat them as some kind of child abusers!!!:(

bumper234 · 25-01-2014 10:44AM

J C wrote: »

For a Christian parent, their faith is the most important and funamental 'help to them in life'.
I agree that there are Atheists all along the 'economic spectrum' ... but Russian Atheistic Communinsm has been a 'by-word' for religious suppression and resulted in death and misery for untold millions of Christians in their concentration camps. The fact that they had 'no room for religion' in schools is something to remember when any Secularist starts making similar noises in relation to our local schools.

And untold MILLIONS have died in the name of your "God" so please stop acting like all christians have been the shining light of decency since time began.

Here you go again making biased unfounded deeply prejudicial accusations against all Christian parents who transmit their Christian Faith to their children ... and your pronouncement that this may 'need to be looked into' ... is a very sinister threat to all Christian parents ... that the state needs to treat them as some kind of child abusers!!!:(

I do believe that ALL religions are cults. you may not like this label but that's your problem not mine!!!!! I have not said that christian parents are child abusers

I simply stated that there should never be religion taught in schools and that if parents want to force their beliefs on their children then that is their choice.:D:D:D:D

Czarcasm · 25-01-2014 10:46AM

J C wrote: »

Guys, please talk to each other ... and when you have agreed on how modern Roman Catholics think and behave ... come back to the rest of us with your answer!!

J C it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that two people (even if they were both Roman Catholic), would disagree with each other on a point of principle. I wouldn't attempt to speak for anyone else's mind, that'd just be silly.

When one occupies the moral high ground its an occupational hazard!!!:)

You all should try it some time ... and stop 'shooting yourselves in the foot' by defending the indefensible

J C I have no interest in occupying the same moral high ground as your good self, I prefer to treat all people equally and I have no interest in thinking I'm superior to anyone else. It can cause a person to lose their sense of perspective and start looking for persecution where there is none.

... and adding insult to injury by making deeply prejudicial statements about good people of sincerely held faith.

As opposed to making deeply prejudicial statements about people full stop? You may need to reflect more on your opinions before you express them on a public forum as I don't think you realise just how unforgiving and intolerant you come across. Look at the forum you're in - "Atheism and Agnosticism", and you come in flashing your "God guns" about the place, claiming persecution then when you're asked to make sense! People give you opportunity after opportunity to express a coherent point of view, and I'm not around here too long, but every thread you post in, it just becomes a hard to read mess.

... and BTW, I also support secularism in matters of state ... Secularism that truly respects and cherishes diversity of opinion and faith ... and not some thinly veiled anti-religious concept that humiliates six year old Christian children who talk about their faith and accuses all Christian parents of being 'child abusers' ... with the obviously sinister implications of such an unfounded accusation!!!

Secularism isn't about respecting or disrespecting faith, it's about separating of the influence of faith from matters where it should have no influence. That's not anti-religion, that's "You can have your religion, but respect the fact that other people do not share and do not want to share in your religion".

The teacher was right to stop the child from quoting John 3:16 because she would've been disrespecting the other children who may not share, nor want to share, in her religious beliefs. First amendment in a nutshell -

An individual has the right to practice their religion, but, the same individual has a responsibility not to enforce their religion on other individuals.

Religious advocates often ignore the second part.

Brian Shanahan · 25-01-2014 03:13PM

J C wrote: »

I agree that there are Atheists all along the 'economic spectrum' ... but Russian Atheistic Communinsm has been a 'by-word' for religious suppression and resulted in death and misery for untold millions of Christians in their concentration camps. The fact that they had 'no room for religion' in schools is something to remember when any Secularist starts making similar noises in relation to our local schools.

Búllfúckingshít, JC and you know it. This is as bad as if I were to start accusing you of being a serial child rapist in every reply I made to you (of which I am certain you're not by the way).

At least do us the courtesy of treating us as if we were living breathing human beings, you'd both come across as a far better person in your comments, and by looking at what we have to say, you'd begin to learn some things.

swampgas · 25-01-2014 03:31PM

J C wrote: »

For a Christian parent, their faith is the most important and fundamental 'help to them in life'.

Maybe for fundamentalist Christians this is true, but for most of the cultural catholics I know "faith" isn't even something that they think about. They are far more concerned with the mundane realities of being a parent, doing their best to make sure their children feel loved and supported. They certainly don't want schools to be nothing more than brain-washing camps for religion.

It's mostly the fundamentalists that want schools to be about indoctrination above all else - oh, and the RCC hierarchy as well of course, they're also big fans of indoctrination paid for by the state.

J C · 25-01-2014 03:59PM

bumper234 wrote: »

And untold MILLIONS have died in the name of your "God" so please stop acting like all christians have been the shining light of decency since time began.

Jesus Christ gave nobody the right to do anything but love their fellow Human Beings ... if religously motivated wars occurred they cannot claim to have been prosecuted in the name of Jesus Christ.

bumper234 wrote: »

I do believe that ALL religions are cults. you may not like this label but that's your problem not mine!!!!! I have not said that christian parents are child abusers I simply stated that there should never be religion taught in schools and that if parents want to force their beliefs on their children then that is their choice.:D:D:D:D

You are quite entitled to your beliefs ... and the 'Christians are child abusers' allegations weren't made by you ... but by your silence you are assenting to them.

No Christian is forcing their beliefs on anybody ... but Christian parents have every right to pass on their faith to their children without having to endure unfounded scurrulous allegations that they are child abusers by doing so.
Equally, they are regarded as the primary educators of their children ... so they are quite entitled to use this Constitutional Right to organise the education of their children as they see fit - and that includes coming together with other parents of common mind, to organise the schooling of their children in schools that reflect their religious outlook.

... and these rights also exist for Atheists if they choose to use them, either individually or collectively.

... what nobody is entitled to do is to dictate to parents, in a school that they have establised to specifically reflect their faith ethos.
This applies equally to Christians who may want to attend a school with a Secular Atheist outlook ... and to Atheists who may wish to attend a school with a Chrisitan ethos.
Just because I decide to send my children to a particular school doesn't give me a veto to turn the faith ethos of that school on its head.
Like everything else in life, variety is a good idea ... and you make your decision based on what is available and other practicalities ... but just like you have no right to dictate that a particular shopkeeper should stock your favourite brand of cigarette, just because you smoke ... the same applies to the 'brand' of school you decide to favour with the attendance of your children.
Choose the one nearest your ethos and if that doesn't suit you, establish a school to your own liking, if you can get any other parents to come together with you.
... and that applies to Creationists and Liberal Secularists, like myself as well !!!

J C · 25-01-2014 04:18PM

swampgas wrote: »

Maybe for fundamentalist Christians this is true, but for most of the cultural catholics I know "faith" isn't even something that they think about. They are far more concerned with the mundane realities of being a parent, doing their best to make sure their children feel loved and supported. They certainly don't want schools to be nothing more than brain-washing camps for religion.

It's mostly the fundamentalists that want schools to be about indoctrination above all else - oh, and the RCC hierarchy as well of course, they're also big fans of indoctrination paid for by the state.

The anti-theist vitrol evident on these threads ... and the humiliation of that young Christian child when she tried to talk about the birth of Jesus Christ being celebrated by her family at Christmas, indicates that fundamentalism and indoctrination, of a particulary intolerant variety exists amongst some Secularists.

... BTW are there any Liberal Secularists, like myself, on this thread?
... and if there are ... why are they staying so silent?

Delirium · 25-01-2014 04:20PM

how exactly does someone defend reading bible passages in school and be a secularist at the same time? and that's before we even touch your opinions of Genesis in the science class.

swampgas · 25-01-2014 04:22PM

J C wrote: »

The anti-theist vitrol evident on these threads ... and the humiliation of that young Christian child when she tried to talk about the birth of Jesus Christ being celebrated by her family at Christmas, indicates that fundamentalism and indoctrination, of a particulary intolerant variety exists amongst some Secularists.

She wasn't humiliated, she was simply asked to talk about something else, something not quite so preachy.

... BTW are there any Liberal Secularists, like myself, on this thread?
... and if there are ... why are they staying so silent?

I'm pretty sure you're unique

AerynSun · 25-01-2014 04:26PM

J C wrote: »

The anti-theist vitrol evident on these threads ... and the humiliation of that young Christian child...

J C, I think what you're missing is how angry some of us still are about the humiliation of countless young children in Christian school settings where they have been ridiculed and sidelined for 'not accepting the Truth' about 'Jesus dying for them'. Where's the compassion? Why is it okay for some Christians in some schools to tell young children that Jesus was bloodily killed because children everywhere have been bad and naughty, and that the way to make things ok with God is to say sorry and accept salvation? That's hectic stuff for six year olds.

Kinda inappropriate in a school setting. Why can't Christians agree to leave it out, and do the 'faith formation' stuff in the context of their own religious traditions, aka at catechism or Sunday school? And leave the school environment for learning how to read and write and count and make friends?

J C · 25-01-2014 04:30PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Yes, because it's that easy to just establish a school.
State run schools should not have any religious ethos. Simple. That's not to say they should be anti-religious, religion just should not come into it, period. Schools are for education, not indoctrination.

... but the young girl suffered anti-religious humiliation in a public school ... that was using your ideas on how a secular school should be run ...
... so your idea may be great in theory ... but it doesn't seem to work out that way in practice.

If you guys wish to have anti-religion and anti-God concepts taught as 'logic' in your schools ... than please count me out ... and about 90% of the people in this country who are self-declared Christians.
... and if you guys continue to go around calling most of your neighbours 'child abusers' just because they educate their children in the Christian Faith ... then please don't expect them to hand over their schools to you any time soon, after you have levelled such deeply prejudicial insults at them!!!:)

robindch · 25-01-2014 04:33PM

J C wrote: »

[...] just because they educate their children in the Christian Faith [...]

Not "educate" but "indoctrinate".

Delirium · 25-01-2014 04:34PM

J C wrote: »

... but the young girl suffered anti-religious humiliation in a public school ... that was using your ideas on how a secular school should be run ...
... so your idea may be great in theory ... but it doesn't seem to work out that way in practice.

If you guys wish to have anti-religion and anti-God concepts taught as 'logic' in your schools ... than please count me out ... and about 90% of the people in this country who are self-declared Christians.
... and if you guys continue to go around calling most of your neighbours 'child abusers' just because they educate their children in the Christian Faith ... then please don't expect them to hand over their schools to you any time soon, after you have levelled such deeply prejudicial insults at them!!!:)

The assignment was to talk to class about Christmas, so how exactly is it anti-religious? Why was only one Christian stopped in the class? Could it be that she unwittingly did something inappropriate in the classroom? A reasonable and simple explanation instead of the "they're out to bully Christian children" you are currently claiming.

J C · 25-01-2014 04:38PM

SW wrote: »

how exactly does someone defend reading bible passages in school and be a secularist at the same time? and that's before we even touch your opinions of Genesis in the science class.

A Liberal Secularist believes in the doctrine of the peaceful co-existence and equality of treatment of people of all faiths and none.
I am such a person ... but nobody else on this thread can claim to be, after the diatribes of anti-religious bias that has been written here over the past few pages ... and the singular failure of anybody to say that the religious humiliation suffered by that six year old girl shouldn't have happened.
In fact, the reverse was what occurred ... you guys defended it to the hilt ... and proffered the further allegation, for good measure, that all Christian parents are child abusers, if the pass on their Faith to their children.

Czarcasm · 25-01-2014 04:40PM

J C wrote: »

No Christian is forcing their beliefs on anybody... but Christian parents have every right to pass on their faith to their children without having to endure unfounded scurrulous allegations that they are child abusers by doing so.

But J C that's exactly what the parents in this story were trying to do, and using their own child to do so. They're not so stupid that they didn't understand a six year old's homework assignment and use it as an opportunity to impose their religious beliefs in a public school with a secular ethos!

Equally, they are regarded as the primary educators of their children ... so they are quite entitled to use this Constitutional Right to organise the education of their children as they see fit - and that includes coming together with other parents of common mind, to organise the schooling of their children in schools that reflect their religious outlook.

... and these rights also exist for Atheists if they choose to use them, either individually or collectively.

Nothing about the responsibility that these rights carry then, no? That's the problem with religious fundamentalists misguidedly claiming a breach of their constitutional rights, while completely ignoring their constitutional responsibilities.

... what nobody is entitled to do is to dictate to parents, in a school that they have establised to specifically reflect their faith ethos.
This applies equally to Christians who may want to attend a school with a Secular Atheist outlook ... and to Atheists who may wish to attend a school with a Chrisitan ethos.
Just because I decide to send my children to a particular school doesn't give me a veto to turn the faith ethos of that school on its head.
Like everything else in life, variety is a good idea ... and you make your decision based on what is available and other practicalities ... but just like you have no right to dictate that a particular shopkeeper should stock your favourite brand of cigarette, just because you smoke ... the same applies to the 'brand' of school you decide to favour with the attendance of your children.
Choose the one nearest your ethos and if that doesn't suit you, establish a school to your own liking, if you can get any other parents to come together with you.
... and that applies to Creationists and Liberal Secularists, like myself as well !!!

You mean just like it shouldn't give parents with Christian beliefs a veto to use their child to turn the secular ethos of a public school on it's head and then claim that the school ethos is in breach of their constitutional rights?

Did I hear you mention the word 'indefensible' earlier on? What's indefensible is some people's ignorance of their constitution, only then to claim persecution when they only read the "rights" part of the amendment, and ignored the "responsibilities" part.

Delirium · 25-01-2014 04:42PM

J C wrote: »

A Liberal Secularist believes in the doctrine of the peaceful co-existence and equality of treatment of people of all faiths and none.
I am such a person ... but nobody else on this thread can claim to be, after the diatribes of anti-religious bias that has been written here over the past few pages ... and the singular failure of anybody to say that the religious humiliation suffered by that six year old girl shouldn't have happened.
In fact, the reverse was what occurred ... you guys defended it to the hilt ... and proffered the further allegation, for good measure, that all Christian parents are child abusers, if the pass on their Faith to their children.

you're sounding very confused atm.

Secular liberalism is the separation of culture and politics from religion. A subcategory of liberalism and secularism, it supports the separation of religion and state and especially ideas of the Christian Church. Christian ideals are usually to be found on the opposite end of the spectrum from secular liberalism.[1] Secular liberalism is often connected with standing for social equality and freedom.[2][3]

what religious humiliation? The rest of the Christian kids managed to the do the assignment without committing the faux pas of reading from the bible in the classroom.

If you have a problem with what happened then you don't support secularism like you claim you do.

J C · 25-01-2014 04:43PM

robindch wrote: »

Not "educate" but "indoctrinate".

I say 'educate' ... you say 'indoctrinate' ... we'll have to agree to differ on your anti-religious terminology.

I'll be moving my children out of Secular education having seen what I've seen here ... and you may move your children into it.

That way, we will both be happy.:)

lazygal · 25-01-2014 04:56PM

J C wrote: »

I say 'educate' ... you say 'indoctrinate' ... we'll have to agree to differ on your anti-religious terminology.

I'll be moving my children out of Secualar education having seen what I've seen here ... and you may move your children into it.

That way, we will both be happy.:)

There is no secular education in Ireland.

J C · 25-01-2014 04:59PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You mean just like it shouldn't give parents with Christian beliefs a veto to use their child to turn the secular ethos of a public school on it's head and then claim that the school ethos is in breach of their constitutional rights?

It is possible to respect the beliefs of people who are not of the ethos of a particular school.
For example, Christian ethos schools fully respect the faith position of children from Atheist homes attending their schools and would have no difficulty with such children talking about their Atheism in class (which wasn't what happened in the 'mirror image' situation that the Christian child found herself in).
Just because an Atheist is attending a Christian ethos school, however, doesn't mean that they can demand that religion must cease to be taught there, to avoid offending them. They should either put up with the fact that they are at a Christian ethos school ... or move somewhere else, closer to their parents worldview ... if its not to their liking.
... and BTW, this also applies to Christian children attending Secular schools as well ... they should accept the fact that they are at an irreligious school ... or move somewhere else if it's not to their liking.
None of this should prevent any child discussing their faith (or lack of Faith) in any school ... like apparently happened with the six year old girl in the secular school. This is all part of a broad liberal education for living in a pluralist, multi-cultural society.

OK, so you're an atheist. What next?

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