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Martin : FF no longer toxic brand

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    raymon wrote: »
    In the last redc poll it is bad news for Michael and the rest of FF

    FF are quite unpopular amongst young people across Ireland , with only 15% support amongst 18-34 age group.

    Also quite unpopular in the Dublin area at 14%.

    In addition , Michael Martins own popularity has dropped by 2% to a lowly 33%.

    http://www.redcresearch.ie/news/paddy-power-poll-jan-2014

    Looks toxic to me Michael
    You are correct in the statement you made. however fianna fail built ireland from the beginning. Fianna fail contribution to irish affairs is complex yet they were the most popular party in the state before it collapsed. fIANNA FAIL just like fine gael will rise again. The next general election is the only opinion poll that matters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    You are correct in the statement you made. however fianna fail built ireland from the beginning. Fianna fail contribution to irish affairs is complex yet they were the most popular party in the state before it collapsed. fIANNA FAIL just like fine gael will rise again. The next general election is the only opinion poll that matters.

    I think that Irish political parties need to reform rather than end. Fianna Fail for better or worse played a very big role in our history as did Fine Gael and Labour. At present, we are lead by perhaps the poorest selection of leaders in our history and have lost our old values in many regards. Massive voids have formed like the collapse of the Catholic church, banking systems and Fianna Fail. Enda Kenny is not equipped to be a good leader and his party, like Fianna Fail, was steeped in the big business/developers link to politics. All major parties do need to survive in Ireland but all need serious reform and also strong leadership.

    On the ground, we need better talent than we have. The parties should select higher calibre candidates and TDs should spend more time in their constituencies solving problems for the people rather than point scoring in the Dail. In counties like Laois, Waterford, Leitrim and Cavan, we have particularly poor candidates. I live in Cork at present, and can only say we have marginally better ones only because Martin is party leader (same can be said of Mayo) but he is not any more leadership material than the morons in the other counties who remain only TDs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    I think that Irish political parties need to reform rather than end. Fianna Fail for better or worse played a very big role in our history as did Fine Gael and Labour. At present, we are lead by perhaps the poorest selection of leaders in our history and have lost our old values in many regards. Massive voids have formed like the collapse of the Catholic church, banking systems and Fianna Fail. Enda Kenny is not equipped to be a good leader and his party, like Fianna Fail, was steeped in the big business/developers link to politics. All major parties do need to survive in Ireland but all need serious reform and also strong leadership.

    On the ground, we need better talent than we have. The parties should select higher calibre candidates and TDs should spend more time in their constituencies solving problems for the people rather than point scoring in the Dail. In counties like Laois, Waterford, Leitrim and Cavan, we have particularly poor candidates. I live in Cork at present, and can only say we have marginally better ones only because Martin is party leader (same can be said of Mayo) but he is not any more leadership material than the morons in the other counties who remain only TDs.
    i agree we need to strip away all the crap which exists in are public systems .the leaders need to step up and cut out all the small talk .we nead an irish obama


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    i agree we need to strip away all the crap which exists in are public systems .the leaders need to step up and cut out all the small talk .we nead an irish obama

    The current Irish Water issue is an example of hypocrisy in Irish politics. FF criticising a FG minister (even though FF would do the very same thing: PPARS anyone?).

    All these Dail debates over issues like this is where time is wasted. Because, the ones crying the loudest about 50m to consultants would do the exact same!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    The current Irish Water issue is an example of hypocrisy in Irish politics. FF criticising a FG minister (even though FF would do the very same thing: PPARS anyone?).

    All these Dail debates over issues like this is where time is wasted. Because, the ones crying the loudest about 50m to consultants would do the exact same!
    I agree it is like a circus. I think we should elect people who have qualificatons in there chosen fields. enda kenny is only a teacher after all


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    raymon wrote: »
    In the last redc poll it is bad news for Michael and the rest of FF

    FF are quite unpopular amongst young people across Ireland , with only 15% support amongst 18-34 age group.

    Also quite unpopular in the Dublin area at 14%.

    In addition , Michael Martins own popularity has dropped by 2% to a lowly 33%.

    http://www.redcresearch.ie/news/paddy-power-poll-jan-2014

    Looks toxic to me Michael

    Fianna Fail will not be able to convince many it has changed as long as Micheal Martin leads. Now, I live in Cork and admittedly, it is good to have a party leader from here, but nevertheless I never had respect for him. He comes across as quite wishy washy, lacking in charisma and weak and he also has a reputation of defending Bertie's worst corruption and he laid the groundwork for unpopular projects like PPARS and a top-heavy HSE. For smokers, he is the man responsible for the smoking ban.

    Think Micheal Martin and you automatically think the Bertie/Brian Cowen eras. He was favoured as a high profile minister in these administrations. He is perhaps the most famous Bertie defender and was constantly on Prime Time and the like.

    So, under this leader, can FF really convince one they have changed? If FF was lead by Michael McGrath and promoted TDs who had no major role in the Bertie era, then that would be a start. However, I have a feeling that FF will instead be dominated by the re-emerged figures from the Bertie days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    I agree it is like a circus. I think we should elect people who have qualificatons in there chosen fields. enda kenny is only a teacher after all

    For the most part, I agree that politicians should have qualifications in their ministerial areas (but, then there are exceptions to this: despite being a medical doctor, James Reilly remains a very poor minister for health and is no better than non-medical Mary Harney or Micheal Martin were). Enda Kenny may or may not be a good education minister but is overall a poor Taoiseach in many regards. However, Kenny is controlled more by a system than he controls it and the system has become one that promotes lack of innovation, self serving and, at worst, corruption.

    Most of our previous Taoisigh achieved something. Lemass kickstarted the economy, Lynch kept the Northern Ireland conflict from overspilling and escalating, Fitzgerald the Anglo Irish agreement, Reynolds & Bruton the peace process, Ahern (as much as I hate to give him praise!) the good Friday agreement, etc. Cowen and Haughey seemed to achieve little. Kenny hasn't done great so far but we will have the full story in a few years! More often than not, our presidents have actually outshone our Taoisigh in recent years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    For the most part, I agree that politicians should have qualifications in their ministerial areas (but, then there are exceptions to this: despite being a medical doctor, James Reilly remains a very poor minister for health and is no better than non-medical Mary Harney or Micheal Martin were). Enda Kenny may or may not be a good education minister but is overall a poor Taoiseach in many regards. However, Kenny is controlled more by a system than he controls it and the system has become one that promotes lack of innovation, self serving and, at worst, corruption.

    Most of our previous Taoisigh achieved something. Lemass kickstarted the economy, Lynch kept the Northern Ireland conflict from overspilling and escalating, Fitzgerald the Anglo Irish agreement, Reynolds & Bruton the peace process, Ahern (as much as I hate to give him praise!) the good Friday agreement, etc. Cowen and Haughey seemed to achieve little. Kenny hasn't done great so far but we will have the full story in a few years! More often than not, our presidents have actually outshone our Taoisigh in recent years.

    to be fair to the current government, bringing us out of the Troika supervision and away from the economic disasters of the Ahern/Cowen era will be seen in years to come as a great achievement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon



    So, under this leader, can FF really convince one they have changed? If FF was lead by Michael McGrath and promoted TDs who had no major role in the Bertie era, then that would be a start. However, I have a feeling that FF will instead be dominated by the re-emerged figures from the Bertie days.

    Mc Grath was elected as Berties Team , or Foireann Bertie. You can't trust any of them.

    By the way did he ever find the "hacker" who was using his equipment to view "milf of the week"? ....... Thought not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Godge wrote: »
    to be fair to the current government, bringing us out of the Troika supervision and away from the economic disasters of the Ahern/Cowen era will be seen in years to come as a great achievement.

    But only to the detriment of lots of ordinary public sector workers losing their jobs, the youth emigrating to Australia, rural post offices/pubs/shops closing, complete sectors of the economy collapsing, etc. to balance a set of books.

    Kenny's government's legacy at present is VERY poor and not any different to Ahern/Cowen. True, the 'troika' - a much maligned force often used as a shift-the-blame-to device - is gone but the jury remains out on this government. 2011-January 2014 has been very poor. Let's hope February 2014-2016 will see this government improve: they still have time to redeem themselves and we will see what happens.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    raymon wrote: »
    Mc Grath was elected as Berties Team , or Foireann Bertie. You can't trust any of them.

    By the way did he ever find the "hacker" who was using his equipment to view "milf of the week"? ....... Thought not.

    That is true. McGrath is far from perfect but is about the best FF have at the moment. Definitely a step up from Martin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭baztard


    For me Fianna Fail is still a toxic brand.
    I won't consider voting for any FF candidate in any election until all of the Bertie era members of the party are gone. So realistically this means I wont consider voting for them for a generation or so.

    Michael Martin was a key part of the utterly dishonest and scrupulous governments of Bertie and Cowen. I believe he cannot be trusted.
    I cannot trust any FF person from that era.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭ChicagoJoe


    My girlfriend is starting to wonder is this FG/Lab govt worse than previous FF lead govt - and that's saying something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    baztard wrote: »
    ....
    I cannot trust any FF person from that era.

    We seem to do this a lot. A Fianna Fail crew come along, **** us and then we buy into the next wave...they **** us, then we buy.....
    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    My girlfriend is starting to wonder is this FG/Lab govt worse than previous FF lead govt - and that's saying something.
    Labour sold out for a seat at the big table, Fine Gael are true to form with the right-wing austerity, but more incompetent and corrupt than I had expected, (O'Reilly/Medical Centers, Irish Water etc.).

    However, for me, Fianna Fail should be banned from politics while under investigation for fraud, criminal ineptitude and treason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    More examples of the Bertie elites miking of the system today with the relevations about the former CEO of the CRC and Bertie's mate! Great at feathering their own nests with taxpayers and charities monies these FFers and their hangers on!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    gandalf wrote: »
    More examples of the Bertie elites miking of the system today with the relevations about the former CEO of the CRC and Bertie's mate! Great at feathering their own nests with taxpayers and charities monies these FFers and their hangers on!

    There a ****ing scourge on the country.

    How can you rob money from disabled charitys?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    gandalf wrote: »
    More examples of the Bertie elites miking of the system today with the relevations about the former CEO of the CRC and Bertie's mate! Great at feathering their own nests with taxpayers and charities monies these FFers and their hangers on!

    There a ****ing scourge on the country.

    How can you rob money from disabled charitys?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    My girlfriend is starting to wonder is this FG/Lab govt worse than previous FF lead govt - and that's saying something.

    Can anyone guess which one of Bertie's team was the Fianna Fail minister for health 2000-2004 , he has been keeping very quiet lately........ You guessed it .......Michael Martin

    I would like PAC to call him about how much he knew about CRC


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭cmore123


    Well, if the leader of FF says its true, I'm sure it must be.



    I'm enjoying these mushrooms.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    baztard wrote: »
    For me Fianna Fail is still a toxic brand.
    I won't consider voting for any FF candidate in any election until all of the Bertie era members of the party are gone. So realistically this means I wont consider voting for them for a generation or so.

    Michael Martin was a key part of the utterly dishonest and scrupulous governments of Bertie and Cowen. I believe he cannot be trusted.
    I cannot trust any FF person from that era.

    That is true. I will not consider a vote for FF until all the Bertie era people are gone either. You are right: they are not to be trusted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    ChicagoJoe wrote: »
    My girlfriend is starting to wonder is this FG/Lab govt worse than previous FF lead govt - and that's saying something.

    They certainly are just as bad as FF. FG/Labour were given a golden opportunity to side with the people and defeat all the corruption but no. This whole Irish Water fiasco just shows how poisonous Irish politics (both sides of it, government AND opposition) is. I will not be voting for anyone next time around that's for sure: none of them deserve us wasting time on them. Ireland is unique as a dictatorial society where the people just lie back and take it, and the regime does not even have to silence the press, kill anyone or even form a one party state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    For Reals wrote: »
    We seem to do this a lot. A Fianna Fail crew come along, **** us and then we buy into the next wave...they **** us, then we buy.....


    Labour sold out for a seat at the big table, Fine Gael are true to form with the right-wing austerity, but more incompetent and corrupt than I had expected, (O'Reilly/Medical Centers, Irish Water etc.).

    However, for me, Fianna Fail should be banned from politics while under investigation for fraud, criminal ineptitude and treason.

    Fianna Fail have largely initialised all this dishonest type of politics and it is clear that certain members should be tried for criminal and fraudulent activities. The very worst anyone got was a week or month in prison (Ray Burke, who was not nearly as bad as others).

    Fine Gael promised a lot and their continuation of elite-protecting austerity is a surprise compared to their election promises. The other stuff like Irish Water also are very akin to Fianna Fail. Labour have ALL the worst ministers in the current government who have done untoward damage to ordinary people's jobs - the likes of Quinn and Howlin are among the worst and most anti-people ministers ever (but only in this government have they turned into the devil: they were better in previous ones). CRC is more of the seemingly endless corruption that goes on and Howlin is quite happy to make 1000s unemployed while this CRC and Irish Water fiasco goes on.

    Then, if we get rid of Kenny's Cowboys, we will replace them with Martin's Morons. Irish politics and its corrupt, uncaring, dictatorial flavour stinks to high heavens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    gandalf wrote: »
    More examples of the Bertie elites miking of the system today with the relevations about the former CEO of the CRC and Bertie's mate! Great at feathering their own nests with taxpayers and charities monies these FFers and their hangers on!

    And that's part of the problem to this day. We got rid of Bertie and then FF only to see continuity from the current FG lead administration. What makes it worse is Labour's murder of ordinary public sector jobs. Irish Water, CRC, etc. are all headed by notorious Bertie-era toxic individuals who the current government continue to back. Where's our vote?!?!?!?!?!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    There a ****ing scourge on the country.

    How can you rob money from disabled charitys?

    In other countries, this would not happen. Bertie's corrupt colleagues would be turfed out by the takeover administration. The election of February 2011 was heralded as a type of velvet revolution, a major answer yes by the Irish people to end corruption, austerity, cronyism, elitism, and other dictatorial trends that were instilled into Irish politics. Instead, we get more of all the above and I know that the people, especially in rural areas, are far poorer now than in 2011.

    Sometimes, I worry a lot about the way this country is heading. We are not at the level of the North Koreas or Eritreas by any means but another 5 years of austerity and who knows what could happen? Violent revolution, war, a complete economic breakdown (and I mean the REAL economy not the breakdown of the elite's empire in 2008 which the REAL economy is paying to save!). The way Irish politics is going, they would starve the people to balance the books for themselves and their elitist friends.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    And that's part of the problem to this day. We got rid of Bertie and then FF only to see continuity from the current FG lead administration. What makes it worse is Labour's murder of ordinary public sector jobs. Irish Water, CRC, etc. are all headed by notorious Bertie-era toxic individuals who the current government continue to back. Where's our vote?!?!?!?!?!

    The public service was (and still is) massively over staffed. Those jobs needed to be cut. Extremely hard for the people and their families I know but I'm afraid thems the brakes. When a country is borrowing several billion a year just to cover current expenditure it cannot continue to employ as many people as it did during times of prosperity.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    The public service was (and still is) massively over staffed. Those jobs needed to be cut. Extremely hard for the people and their families I know but I'm afraid thems the brakes. When a country is borrowing several billion a year just to cover current expenditure it cannot continue to employ as many people as it did during times of prosperity.

    Agreed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    The public service was (and still is) massively over staffed. Those jobs needed to be cut. Extremely hard for the people and their families I know but I'm afraid thems the brakes. When a country is borrowing several billion a year just to cover current expenditure it cannot continue to employ as many people as it did during times of prosperity.

    The money should be saved by kicking out the guys at the top on obscene money. Contracts, etc. I know but retire them, tax them more, eliminate these positions. Ordinary people's jobs should NEVER be affected and the state owes its educated workforce a livelihood in sectors not catered for by the private sector.

    Borrowing several billion a year has a lot more to do with the crazy stuff like PPARS, voting machines, consultants, etc. not to mention our overpaid political class that we continue to see with Irish Water and the like. I also agree that there are a lot of 'dolemen' (as distinct from unemployed: I mean people who thrive on being unemployed and have no intention of working) and the money should be reallocated from here to provide work for all those unemployed qualified people. Ireland is a sick country at the moment and it encourages wrongdoings from the top to the bottom. Billions can easily be saved without hurting the good, decent workers of Ireland that's for sure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    nuac wrote: »
    Agreed

    No one's ordinary jobs need to be cut. Would one approve of killing innocent civilians in Iraq and murder 1000s of them because Saddam was a bad guy? No. I'm sick of politicians speaking in statistics and saying we need 'tough medicine' and 'have to make tough decisions' etc with total disregard for the people they hurt be that Ireland's dictatorship economy or Bush's mad wars. The same disregard for life is there.

    There is a better way. Way too many rich elite and 'dolemen' (as distinct from genuine unemployed) scroungers in this country who discourage people to work. That's what should be cut. Ordinary admin staff, lecturers, teachers, doctors, potential gardai, etc. have to bear the brunt of evil cutbacks to keep scroungers and elites in income. Not right. Only in a failed entity like here would sick policies like this be implemented.

    No one in Ireland should even bother going to college, etc. now. No point!! Go down to the dole office and put on a limp and say 'you can't work' and you will end up far better! That's what's wrong. Try your best and you get damn all and be a chancer and you get everything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    And that's part of the problem to this day. We got rid of Bertie and then FF only to see continuity from the current FG lead administration. What makes it worse is Labour's murder of ordinary public sector jobs. Irish Water, CRC, etc. are all headed by notorious Bertie-era toxic individuals who the current government continue to back. Where's our vote?!?!?!?!?!

    My take on this the reason this Government have not been decisive is because it is a coalition one. It is paralysed from making the very hard decisions because it doesn't sit well with one or the other partners ethoses.

    If FG had got in as a majority Government then I believe the cuts and reforms would have been a lot more brutal but it all would have occurred a lot more quickly and just maybe the country would be on a better upward spiral at this stage. I am no fanboy for FG but some of their pre-election utterings were the closest to those that I have come to believe about reforming our Governmental instruments which is why I voted for them.

    We need to overhaul our whole Political system in both Local and National Government and unfortunately no party exists at this moment who will make those wide ranging changes.

    As someone who is currently looking for a job I hope this Government get their act together with making a positive environment conductive to growth in the SME sector where we have the best opportunity in making a dent in the unemployment figures and not from keeping overpopulated and bloated public sectors jobs in place that are surplus to modern requirements.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,623 ✭✭✭eigrod


    The public service was (and still is) massively over staffed.

    Where's the proof of that ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    eigrod wrote: »
    Where's the proof of that ?

    :eek::All around you. Public service is way overstaffed in some departments although the health service needs more staff quickly. Public expenditure in wages alone is just too high. However this could have been justified if the services the state funds and directs were UP TO STANDARD. they are not and as a consequence the ordinary person is suffering by either been forced on long ques or emirgate to seek better employment and standard of living


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    gandalf wrote: »
    My take on this the reason this Government have not been decisive is because it is a coalition one. It is paralysed from making the very hard decisions because it doesn't sit well with one or the other partners ethoses.

    If FG had got in as a majority Government then I believe the cuts and reforms would have been a lot more brutal but it all would have occurred a lot more quickly and just maybe the country would be on a better upward spiral at this stage. I am no fanboy for FG but some of their pre-election utterings were the closest to those that I have come to believe about reforming our Governmental instruments which is why I voted for them.

    We need to overhaul our whole Political system in both Local and National Government and unfortunately no party exists at this moment who will make those wide ranging changes.

    As someone who is currently looking for a job I hope this Government get their act together with making a positive environment conductive to growth in the SME sector where we have the best opportunity in making a dent in the unemployment figures and not from keeping overpopulated and bloated public sectors jobs in place that are surplus to modern requirements.

    That is all very true about coalitions. Most of the recent Irish governments have been poor and all have been coalitions. The jury is still out on this government, we will see what happens by 2016. A major problem is that Ireland's elitist culture transcends party politics. For example, fiascos like CRC or Irish Water would happen no matter who was in power.

    We need both a healthy, job creating public and private sector. We need to get rid of overpaid officials at the top and all those consultants (Irish Water, etc. come to mind). Also, people with no intention of ever working and who scrounge off of social welfare have to be tackled - I don't mean genuine unemployed here but the 'doleman' culture where people prefer to be unemployed and scrounge off the state forever. Billions can be saved here without damaging our frontline public sector jobs and services. With regard to the private sector, more entrepreneurial initiates need to be established and an environment healthy for new Irish SME startups to succeed needs to be established. Rent, rates and insurance need to be reformed bigtime here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,623 ✭✭✭eigrod


    :eek::All around you. Public service is way overstaffed in some departments although the health service needs more staff quickly. Public expenditure in wages alone is just too high. However this could have been justified if the services the state funds and directs were UP TO STANDARD. they are not and as a consequence the ordinary person is suffering by either been forced on long ques or emirgate to seek better employment and standard of living

    That's not proof....that's conjecture. Got any links to any recent reports or studies to say it's overstaffed ? Why, you even say certain parts are understaffed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    :eek::All around you. Public service is way overstaffed in some departments although the health service needs more staff quickly. Public expenditure in wages alone is just too high. However this could have been justified if the services the state funds and directs were UP TO STANDARD. they are not and as a consequence the ordinary person is suffering by either been forced on long ques or emirgate to seek better employment and standard of living

    Obviously, the public sector needs reform. There are too many chiefs and not enough indians here. Ordinary frontline jobs are needed but these are the ones often cut. Huge waste exists and bureaucratic inefficiencies prevail bringing down the quality of services for everyone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    eigrod wrote: »
    That's not proof....that's conjecture. Got any links to any recent reports or studies to say it's overstaffed ? Why, you even say certain parts are understaffed.

    Ordinary public sector jobs are understaffed. The problem is the lads at the top always. Too many heads of departments, registrars, etc. Hospitals, colleges, FAS, etc. all run on that model and often useless people reach the top.

    What is even worse are all these semi-state bodies and services out there. Projects like PPARS, the voting machines, CRC, Irish Water and the like These are certainly not pinups for public-private sector collaboration.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    eigrod wrote: »
    That's not proof....that's conjecture. Got any links to any recent reports or studies to say it's overstaffed ? Why, you even say certain parts are understaffed.
    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2011/09/11/public-pay-and-the-sindo/
    http://www.irishhealth.com/discussion/message.html?dis=2&topic=20536

    I rest my case


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    I don't think ff should be voted back in,but people seem to have forgotten what damage it did


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    I don't think ff should be voted back in,but people seem to have forgotten what damage it did
    YES your right the general public seem to have very short memories
    http://www.redcresearch.ie/news/paddy-power-poll-jan-2014

    Yet the general election is the only poll that really matters.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    I don't think ff should be voted back in,but people seem to have forgotten what damage it did

    Never underestimate what the promise of a new road will do for votes. Fianna fail can manipulate like no other party I've ever seen!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    Never underestimate what the promise of a new road will do for votes. Fianna fail can manipulate like no other party I've ever seen!

    Yes they buy voters with empty promises


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Yes they buy voters with empty promises

    Oh no, they'll deliver the promises. Put in doing so they will bankrupt a nation again! And not feel a share of guilt.

    And make there galway tent buddies very rich in the process!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    Oh no, they'll deliver the promises. Put in doing so they will bankrupt a nation again! And not feel a share of guilt.

    And make there galway tent buddies very rich in the process!

    That is a bit extreme . it is highly unlikely they will make the same mistakes again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    That is all very true about coalitions. Most of the recent Irish governments have been poor and all have been coalitions. The jury is still out on this government, we will see what happens by 2016. A major problem is that Ireland's elitist culture transcends party politics. For example, fiascos like CRC or Irish Water would happen no matter who was in power.

    They certainly have dropped the ball badly with the CRC and Irish Water and how they sort them out will define whether this Government have been effective or not. As someone else reminded us the glorious leader of FF was the Minister of Health when the Bertie Board of the CRC were appointed. He is certainly being very quiet at the moment ;)
    We need both a healthy, job creating public and private sector. We need to get rid of overpaid officials at the top and all those consultants (Irish Water, etc. come to mind). Also, people with no intention of ever working and who scrounge off of social welfare have to be tackled - I don't mean genuine unemployed here but the 'doleman' culture where people prefer to be unemployed and scrounge off the state forever. Billions can be saved here without damaging our frontline public sector jobs and services. With regard to the private sector, more entrepreneurial initiates need to be established and an environment healthy for new Irish SME startups to succeed needs to be established. Rent, rates and insurance need to be reformed bigtime here.

    When I say overstaffed I certainly don't mean the front line staff, they are being sacrificed for the layers of fat that are in the system above them and specifically the seat fillers who have been promoted for no other reason other than they have been around the longest and into positions that were created by the disastrously Bertie conceived social partnership.

    Just look at the HSE it is a prime example of waste on unnecessary staffing levels in back office departments at the expense of the front line. I know they are starting a "targeted redundancy program" but I fully expect it to be botched and in the worst case scenario they may even hire the retirees back like other Public Sector redundancy schemes because they let all the experience out of the sector they were trimming down.

    Rents reform is another major failure by the current Government and certainly would make a major difference to struggling businesses and start ups. Rates would be directly connected with Local Authority reform and needs to be addressed, I have learnt this from directly researching setting up a business which we abandoned because of the costs involved.

    As a current customer of the Social Welfare something does need to be done about the people who have not made an effort to ever get a job. We really need to have a diminishing rate of Social Welfare over the longer term but couple it with real relevant re-educational so they have the correct tools to get a job in the sectors that need them and to build their confidence. FAS or Intreo as it is currently configured is not up to this job as it is currently configured from my experience.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    That is a bit extreme . it is highly unlikely they will make the same mistakes again.

    Really?

    Sure the party is been run by a man that supported Bertie ahern right till the end. Its exactly the same party as it was ten Years ago!

    Corruption is indemic in that party. As will be proved once the banking court cases start this year!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    That is a bit extreme . it is highly unlikely they will make the same mistakes again.

    They broke the country in the eighties and they did it again in the noughties! They certainly don't learn from the past and not only is a Bertie stalwart in control but several others are now threatening to crawl out from under the stones they fled to after the last election to get their "fix" of power again.

    I see no evidence of them reforming or learning from the past at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭on the river


    Really?

    Sure the party is been run by a man that supported Bertie ahern right till the end. Its exactly the same party as it was ten Years ago!

    Corruption is indemic in that party. As will be proved once the banking court cases start this year!

    Firstly calm michael 999999.

    I did not say i was against you. I just made a valid point on how fianna fail has a good change of returning to power in the next election. Fine gael was wiped out in 2002 but rebuilt itself. FF will do the same . Irish politics is not simple as you suggest . it is a complex matter which obviously you have taken personally with the conduct of FF . FF is tarnished yet they are gaining ground at the expense of labour retaking the centre left position.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    gandalf wrote: »
    They certainly have dropped the ball badly with the CRC and Irish Water and how they sort them out will define whether this Government have been effective or not. As someone else reminded us the glorious leader of FF was the Minister of Health when the Bertie Board of the CRC were appointed. He is certainly being very quiet at the moment ;)



    When I say overstaffed I certainly don't mean the front line staff, they are being sacrificed for the layers of fat that are in the system above them and specifically the seat fillers who have been promoted for no other reason other than they have been around the longest and into positions that were created by the disastrously Bertie conceived social partnership.

    Just look at the HSE it is a prime example of waste on unnecessary staffing levels in back office departments at the expense of the front line. I know they are starting a "targeted redundancy program" but I fully expect it to be botched and in the worst case scenario they may even hire the retirees back like other Public Sector redundancy schemes because they let all the experience out of the sector they were trimming down.

    Rents reform is another major failure by the current Government and certainly would make a major difference to struggling businesses and start ups. Rates would be directly connected with Local Authority reform and needs to be addressed, I have learnt this from directly researching setting up a business which we abandoned because of the costs involved.

    As a current customer of the Social Welfare something does need to be done about the people who have not made an effort to ever get a job. We really need to have a diminishing rate of Social Welfare over the longer term but couple it with real relevant re-educational so they have the correct tools to get a job in the sectors that need them and to build their confidence. FAS or Intreo as it is currently configured is not up to this job as it is currently configured from my experience.

    I notice Martin and FF are talking bigtime about Irish Water but not the CRC for the reason you state. Martin is the wrong man to lead an Irish political party at present as he is so steeped in all the bad stuff that went on under Bertie and co. Martin also commissioned too many reports in his time and made many dodgy consultants rich.

    Bertie's social partnership and also benchmarking were cons that allowed the political class and the top civil servants to increase their salaries four fold often. The guys at the very top creamed it off and Ireland's politicians climbed from being near the poorest paid in Europe to being the second best paid in Europe (after ......... Greece!!).

    The HSE in general shows all that is wrong in government and our public service. And guess who was instrumental in establishing the HSE as we know it? A guy called Micheal Martin! Frontline staff cut back and plush office jobs created, with a view to protecting the minister for health from being blamed for inefficiencies in the health service.

    Setting up a business is a very brave move and is hampered by high set up costs such as rent, rates and insurance. Far from being open for business, Ireland is often closed for business for many.

    Ireland does need to get away from social welfare dependency, be it genuinely unemployed or 'dolemen'. Genuinely unemployed should be helped in every effort to get a job in their required discipline and given all the help needed. FAS, the VECs, third level colleges, etc. all need to be funded more to develop better courses for those willing to upskill. As regards the 'dolemen', they should also work too: no one has the right to decide to sit back and con the state out of money by refusing to work at anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    That is a bit extreme . it is highly unlikely they will make the same mistakes again.

    They didn't make any mistakes. That's the problem.
    Saying 'mistake' makes it sound like they didn't mean to bleed the country dry, over inflate and bleed it a little more.
    Them and there's made out like bandits. The only fly in the ointment for them is they pushed it so far that the bottom fell out and we noticed. So a few years in the minor leagues and they'll be back as before.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Firstly calm michael 999999.

    I did not say i was against you. I just made a valid point on how fianna fail has a good change of returning to power in the next election. Fine gael was wiped out in 2002 but rebuilt itself. FF will do the same . Irish politics is not simple as you suggest . it is a complex matter which obviously you have taken personally with the conduct of FF . FF is tarnished yet they are gaining ground at the expense of labour retaking the centre left position.

    Irish politics is essentially FF and FG governments with some coalition partner. The coalition partner usually does very poorly next time out. FF and FG tend to recover.

    At present, FG remains the most popular party and FF has taken second place. Labour are down. SF and independents are on the rise. And hardline leftwing parties like Republican Sinn Fein, 32 county sovereignty movement, Eirigi and Socialist Workers Party maintain limited support and have not capitalised on recent events.

    In general, voters are quick to forget the past and regard the last FF government as a problem and enemy from 2011 that was got rid of then. Voters either see the current government as the new enemy or an improvement on the old one and will vote accordingly.

    2011-2014 showed the current government to be poor overall. However, their test as a government will be seen more from now until 2016 and how they handle reversal of early mistakes, how many jobs they create, how the economy will perform, and how they handle scandals like Irish Water and CRC.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭patrickn


    F.F. are in my opinion in for a strange cycle of elections in the locals and general elections. Their support base seems to be levelling out at the mid 20s.

    In the locals that would be a drop in support from what they got in 2009 leading to a loss of some seats and a calling for the head of M.M.

    However if they were to get mid 20s in a General election in 2016 they could quite possibly double their seats in the Dail. Their strategy should be where they have 2 seats in a constituency (only 1) they field 2. Where they have 1 seat they field 2 and where they have no seat they field 1.

    Now with the Soldiers of Destiny chomping at the bit to run this will be some task to curtail all the prospective candidates. At mid 20s support a seat in every constituency is achievable and may sneak in a second where their was previously one.


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