If you knew your neighbour was a dole cheat would you report him/her

pache · 15-01-2014 12:40AM

Anyone know how much v.a.t. lost to the exchequer with all these "cash'n'hand":rolleyes: transcations going on??:D:D

Femme_Fatale · 15-01-2014 12:48AM

It's not fear of being a "grass" (because I didn't grow up in an East End gang family), it's just that it's none of my business; it's the Revenue's.

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

No crusade here ted, just can't believe anyone could be so unbelievably selfish.

How are they being selfish by not reporting other people?

Good luck with your life, karma is a bitch.

If it exists, which it probably doesn't.

Renegade Mechanic · 15-01-2014 01:00AM

urabell wrote: »

I travel all the time, rarely stamped

Really? Dammit.. Always tought they were

Renegade Mechanic · 15-01-2014 01:13AM

pache wrote: »

Anyone know how much v.a.t. lost to the exchequer with all these "cash'n'hand":rolleyes: transcations going on??:D:D

Thats an interesting point. But what an awful lot of people dont realise is it goes the other way too. I knew someone who was on the dole some time ago (08-) and was living at home and under 24 and after a means test (where they f*cking looked for his parents books for 2006/7 - their busiest year :mad:) he was cut to 90 a week. Around 5K per year and his Insurance alone was 2.2k. It just didnt work. He did a job for one Fella and got a hundred euro out of it. Every penny of it went straight into my gasping car so while he may have made a "black" hundred euro, he actually gave the government around sixty!

Eight Ball · 15-01-2014 09:02AM

The_Pretender wrote: »

But why though? It doesn't sound like you refuse to do it out of fear of being caught so what's the problem? This effects everyone, and takes away money that could be better spent in other areas.

But many things like court cases rely largely upon eye witness accounts. So if everyone like you it's possible the streets would have far more criminals on them :eek:

Other areas? What like Berties pension and over inflated higher paid civil servants wages.

Ray Palmer · 15-01-2014 10:28AM

What is funny about the people who say "no" is they are actually the people likely to report their friends and family if they fall out. The vast majority of the people who report people are close friends and family. When they are angry they do what they think is the worst thing they can do to the other person.

A lot of the moral codes of the "salt of the earth" people is just derived from fear and intimidation. If they think they won't get caught they do as they please. There is no honour among thieves.

Frigga_92 · 15-01-2014 12:09PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

How are they being selfish by not reporting other people?

I wasn't talking about not reporting other people.

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

So if you were lying on the road with your leg hanging off after a crash and there were 2 eye witnesses who pretended they saw nothing that were the only way for you to win your case (and pay for all your medical expenses and other associated expenses), you'd be happy if they just walked away, said nothing, did nothing and left you to it?

MonstaMash wrote: »

No I wouldn't be happy, I'd be fookd, c'est la vie!

Have you any other scenarios you would like to throw up to convince me of the error of my ways?

It is what it is & I am who I am, the only one who can change that is me...

Good luck with your crusade :P

MonstaMash · 15-01-2014 12:14PM

26sdrawkcab just doesn't like me because I'm one selfish mo-fo Femme_Fatale

Ray Palmer · 15-01-2014 12:22PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

I would not report anyone out of principle, but I don't condone welfare fraud either...

.

You haven't described a principle you have just stated you wouldn't be an informant. That is not giving any moral reason for the principle you are saying is important. A principle has to have a moral/logical reason for it's guidance which you aren't stating. Very like saying you have a theory with out any facts for it which is therefore not a theory

hardCopy · 15-01-2014 12:31PM

Red Kev wrote: »

If you live more than 10 miles from a signing on office you only have to sign on every 3 months, they send you out a slip once a month to sign.

Passports are not stamped when flying within the EU.

If you want to stop a lot of the flying in and out brigade then make signing on weekly compulsory, have them sign on different days each week to make it more awkward, photo ID (some welfare cards already have this), and then your cheque is printed on the spot. Anybody still having dole payments paid into their bank accounts should have them stopped and get paid by the above method instead.

I'd agree with most of what you said, have people physically sign on, but make the payment electronically. Just don't authorise the payment unless they present, cheques and cash just add complexity, cost and security issues to the system.

MonstaMash · 15-01-2014 12:44PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You haven't described a principle you have just stated you wouldn't be an informant. That is not giving any moral reason for the principle you are saying is important. A principle has to have a moral/logical reason for it's guidance which you aren't stating. Very like saying you have a theory with out any facts for it which is therefore not a theory

With respect Ray, I don't need to or wasn't asked to give a moral reason.

The fact of the matter is, it is important to me as an individual that I would find it unpalatable, if you will, to inform on anyone.

Different strokes for different folks...if it's not my business, I don't involve myself with it.

Reprehensible as some posters may find it & without wanting to repeat myself, it is what it is...I make no apologies for this.

MonstaMash · 15-01-2014 12:51PM

Apparently not only am I selfish asshole, but an arrogant one also

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 12:54PM

so if your neighbour was collecting full time employment under the table in cash, plus collecting housing allowance, the dole and other benefits potentially bringing in upwards of 60-70k a year by scamming the system you would sit idly by and let it happen???

You might as well just walk over to them and give them €50 a week out of your pocket by hand!

MonstaMash · 15-01-2014 01:02PM

@matt-dublin...

You see...ye are all expecting me to have a social conscience here...

NEWS FLASH...I don't, to put it mildly, I really couldn't give a tu'penny fook what others do, I'm simply apathetic towards it all!

Maybe I should just don my hair shirt & repent for my sins, but...I couldn't be arsed in all honesty, c'est la vie :eek:

Annasopra · 15-01-2014 01:03PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And it's going back that way soon as it saves huge amount of money electronically transferring money to a bank account. Other jurisdictions never had any issue with people getting paid into the back. Maybe peoples anger should be turned towards the idiots in charge in the SW offices not doing their job properly. And allowing payments to go were there not needed without checking simple stuff.

And there is a distinct lack of facts here just the usual made up nonsense that normally get spouted about people on the dole.

Since when is it moving back to being paid in the bank?

Tiddlypeeps · 15-01-2014 01:12PM

mango salsa wrote: »

3500? Prove it.

There was a link to an Indo article posted a couple of times

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ash-cloud-crisis-exposes-welfare-tourists-26664210.html

It's a tad misleading tho because it doesn't state how many people typically fail to sign on. It just says it the number of failures was higher than normal during that period of time. The number who typically fail to sign on due to illness/forgetfulness/lazyness etc could be anywhere from a couple of hundred to over 3,000.

The only piece of useful information that can be taken from that number is that the amount of people taking part in welfare tourism here are definitely less than 3,500. Not particularly useful tho.

Ray Palmer · 15-01-2014 01:26PM

MonstaMash wrote: »

With respect Ray, I don't need to or wasn't asked to give a moral reason.

The fact of the matter is, it is important to me as an individual that I would find it unpalatable, if you will, to inform on anyone.

Different strokes for different folks...if it's not my business, I don't involve myself with it.

Reprehensible as some posters may find it & without wanting to repeat myself, it is what it is...I make no apologies for this.

You stated it was a principle you still haven't stated what that principle is. I dislike cabbage it doesn't make me not eating it a principle. Not eating it because it is farmed by slave labour would be on principle.

You aren't using a principle you just wouldn't like to do it. Fine no problem with that your choice but it doesn't make it a principle. You are claiming a moral reason or logic by saying you wouldn't on principle. So it is you who have brought it up a moral issue and code you live by. You just have to explain it no need for an apology. I have no idea why it is important to you as an individual.

Up to you if you go around doing things for no reason or can't explain your reason but you can't call it a principle then. It is a claim to a moral code that you don't have.

hatrickpatrick · 15-01-2014 01:28PM

Justice has to be balanced: if the elite aren't being punished for defrauding the taxpayer, ordinary people shouldn't be either.

So for the time being the answer is no. When Seanie, Drumm et al are rotting in prison, then absolutely yes.

MonstaMash · 15-01-2014 01:37PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You stated it was a principle you still haven't stated what that principle is. I dislike cabbage it doesn't make me not eating it a principle. Not eating it because it is farmed by slave labour would be on principle.

You aren't using a principle you just wouldn't like to do it. Fine no problem with that your choice but it doesn't make it a principle. You are claiming a moral reason or logic by saying you wouldn't on principle. So it is you who have brought it up a moral issue and code you live by. You just have to explain it no need for an apology. I have no idea why it is important to you as an individual.

Up to you if you go around doing things for no reason or can't explain your reason but you can't call it a principle then. It is a claim to a moral code that you don't have.

Duly noted...cheers

PS I like cabbage

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 01:37PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Justice has to be balanced: if the elite aren't being punished for defrauding the taxpayer, ordinary people shouldn't be either.

So for the time being the answer is no. When Seanie, Drumm et al are rotting in prison, then absolutely yes.

doesn't quite work like that.

just because one person didn't get prosicuted doesn't mean another shouldnt

two wrongs dont make a right.

Fussgangerzone · 15-01-2014 01:48PM

Not only would I report them, I'd have them tied to Joan Burton for a week!

I'd also report tax dodgers twice as quick, because that's where we really lose money.

TheMza · 15-01-2014 01:55PM

Why would you rat someone out? Busy-bodies!

matt-dublin · 15-01-2014 02:05PM

because benefit fraud is a big issue in this country (excuse the unintended pun) we should all be aware of it.

we all pay taxes and work hard, those who don't and who intentionally scam the system are being paid for by the taxes we spend. the only conclusion i can some to is that if you're not willing to report somone who is taking advantage of the system when they actually don't need to then you're in some way scamming the system yourself.

we should all be doing our own part to try and reduce soverign debt otherwise we'll be in sh1te for a long while and inflation will keep increasing.

its nothing to do with being a busy body, its to do with equality and fairness.

Unless the claiment is actually in need (e.g. single mother who can't get a job because she can't find or afford childcare) then they need to be looked at because i personally don't think its fair that someone like a builder or electrician who's doing full time nixers and claiming the dole shoould be allowed to get away from it. Especially when not only are they scamming the benefits system but also scamming the tax system.

Don't get me started on welfare tourists either.

MonstaMash · 15-01-2014 02:13PM

matt-dublin wrote: »

the only conclusion i can some to is that if you're not willing to report somone who is taking advantage of the system when they actually don't need to then you're in some way scamming the system yourself.

What a crock of crap...& that's coming from someone who has in my 49 years of existence always worked/paid my taxes & has never claimed or been in receipt of Social Welfare payments/medical card/mortgage relief etc. :mad:

TheMza · 15-01-2014 02:19PM

matt-dublin wrote: »

because benefit fraud is a big issue in this country (excuse the unintended pun) we should all be aware of it.

we all pay taxes and work hard, those who don't and who intentionally scam the system are being paid for by the taxes we spend. the only conclusion i can some to is that if you're not willing to report somone who is taking advantage of the system when they actually don't need to then you're in some way scamming the system yourself.

Ah c'mon now

suicide_circus · 15-01-2014 02:46PM

TheMza wrote: »

Ah c'mon now

You are certainly complicit in the theft if you dont report it.

TheMza · 15-01-2014 02:50PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

You are certainly complicit in the theft if you dont report it.

It's not my job to report benefit frauds!

SmurfX · 15-01-2014 02:50PM

matt-dublin wrote: »

because benefit fraud is a big issue in this country (excuse the unintended pun) we should all be aware of it.

we all pay taxes and work hard, those who don't and who intentionally scam the system are being paid for by the taxes we spend. the only conclusion i can some to is that if you're not willing to report somone who is taking advantage of the system when they actually don't need to then you're in some way scamming the system yourself.

we should all be doing our own part to try and reduce soverign debt otherwise we'll be in sh1te for a long while and inflation will keep increasing.

its nothing to do with being a busy body, its to do with equality and fairness.

Unless the claiment is actually in need (e.g. single mother who can't get a job because she can't find or afford childcare) then they need to be looked at because i personally don't think its fair that someone like a builder or electrician who's doing full time nixers and claiming the dole shoould be allowed to get away from it. Especially when not only are they scamming the benefits system but also scamming the tax system.

Don't get me started on welfare tourists either.

So you should do your civic duty in reporting fraud against the common taxpayer unless where you personally don't agree with the rules and then its ok not to?
That isn't adhering to the law or respecting the common taxpayer, that's acting on your own feelings of how the law should work.

Valetta · 15-01-2014 02:51PM

green_screen wrote: »

If they're doing it for the sake of feeding and clothing themselves, no. If it's just to have extra disposable income, yes.

Under what circunstances would a person not be able to feed and clothe themselves under our generous welfare system?

There's never a justifiable reason to be a "dole cheat".

suicide_circus · 15-01-2014 02:51PM

Also I presume everyone who votes "no" also thinks insurance fraud is grand? Dipping your hand in the charity jar is no big deal?

If you knew your neighbour was a dole cheat would you report him/her

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